Cooperstown report and BB card acquisitions

[tedzan]

TERRY MOORE was a speedy centerfielder for St. Louis Cardinals (1935-48). A tremendous defensive player at his position,
he was a key player during the years of the "Gasehouse Gang's" success.

Three years of his career were interrupted by his service in WWII (1943-45).

Should he be in the HOF....you tell me ?

Terry Moore......BA = .280 ....... Fldg % = .985

Bill Mazeroski.....BA = .260 ....... Fldg % = .983

As a kid, I saw Terry play (1947-48). It was the end of his career; and he was still making some tremendous catches.


Thanks everyone,

TED Z

[FrankWakefield]

Great trivia, Ted. Thanks.

I didn't say Moore should be in the Hall; I said my Dad saw him play and thought him worthy of consideration. The guy could cover some ground out there, only 19 outfielders rank above him all time in range factor... considering that a team has 3 outfielders out there but only 1 at the other positions, that puts him at the apex of outfielders. He's an All Star for 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942, and then he's serving in the military for 3 years; and he's getting MVP votes those four all star years when there's some serious ballplayers for which to vote. Stan Musial's on a team where Moore's the captain, a team that dominated baseball while Moore was in his prime. I didn't see him play, most of us didn't. Those that did that I've talked to thought pretty highly of him, fans and players. And I think he was a better ballplayer than a few of those in the Hall. I'm not advocating his induction, but anyone who thinks Moore to have been an average ballplayer is underestimating him, I think.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tedzan

TERRY MOORE was a speedy centerfielder for St. Louis Cardinals (1935-48). A tremendous defensive player at his position,
he was a key player during the years of the "Gasehouse Gang's" success.

Three years of his career were interrupted by his service in WWII (1943-45).

Should he be in the HOF....you tell me ?

Terry Moore......BA = .280 ....... Fldg % = .985

Bill Mazeroski.....BA = .260 ....... Fldg % = .983

As a kid, I saw Terry play (1947-48). It was the end of his career; and he was still making some tremendous catches.


Thanks everyone,

TED Z

Ted I think this just proves Mazeroski should not be. Although at least he had some good longevity stats etc. And I just don't see how you credit guys for years they did not play, unfortunate though the interruption for the service might be in terms of their careers. Also not sure you can just compare fielding percentages for different positions.

[FrankWakefield]

PS, I agree about a simplistic comparison of fielding percentage looking at different positions. That compares what a player does with the balls on which he makes a play.

Moore is getting to more balls out there than everyone else who played, less 19 men. And then, once he gets to those balls, he's doing something with them. And gunning down a few runners on the side. He was a very good ballplayer. You can continue to perceive him as average. I'm ok with the idea that he's short of making the Hall; but he was an above average player.

As for not counting military service, that's fine if you relinquish longevity; as soon as someone tries to credit longevity, then it's only fair to consider what would have been accomplished if the player had been an the ball field instead of the battlefield. Cecil Travis, Dom DiMaggio, Dick Wakefield and Tommy Henrich are among the players who to me seem to have had their careers, and their career statistics most affected by military service. And that should be considered whenever longevity is considered for other players. It's not like these guys were on a salary hold out. Mr. James' Historical Baseball Abstract ranks Moore 60th among center fielders; not high enough to be among the HOFers, but way above the average player.

[ethicsprof]

yes, indeed, 'hearing' these debates and stories told by Ted, Frank, and Peter are the best of baseball, what baseball is really all about in its essence.
Herein lies the reason we love those pieces of cardboard for a lifetime.

great work, gentlemen

best,
barry

[rc4157]

Ditto to what Barry just said, Thanks guys - RC

[tedzan]

Frank

I saw Terry play at Ebbets Field and the Polo Grounds in 1948 when the Cardinals were in town. Terry fielded 134 hits
to him, and only commited ONE error. It was his last season and I have always thought that if he had played in 1949,
your Cardinals would have won the NL flag (the Dodgers won it by only 1 game).
Furthermore, Terry was a tremendous influence on Stan Musial, when Stan came up in 1941.


Peter

I completely agree with you that Mazeroski should not be in the HOF. And, I'm not "crediting" guys for their years in the
service of our country. But, I'm one of the few here who saw Terry play....and, I'm telling you that he was impressive as
a Centerfielder.

As for who is in the HOF, and who isn't in the HOF....there are at least 3 guys (in my opinion) that have been overlooked
(Bill Dahlen, Gil Hodges and Buck O'Neill).

I don't understand why....do you ?


TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

As I have said before, I would clean house and have a much smaller HOF, but based on current membership I would think Hodges certainly rates. Similar to Jim Rice in many ways statistically, and a great power hitter for a decade. O'Neill I would think yes just based on who he was although perhaps in some special category not as a player. Dahlen's stats are not that impressive, although certainly head and shoulders above Tinker and Evers, among others.

[FrankWakefield]

We three are pretty much on the same page, I now think...

Maybe the thing to do is form the American Baseball Museum, create an alternative to Cooperstown (though it would be a shame to lose that tradition), and then really tighten up on who is honored. Whittle it down to 60 to 80, or so.

When Mr. Moore was playing, when Dad was thinking him a very good ballplayer, that was before Mantle, Mays, and Snider. It was before Hodges and Rice. Today, with Mr. James would having Moore ranked 60th, and looking through the list and subtracting out players who played later, then Moore would have ranked 30th among center fielders back when Dad was contemplating our National Pastime. I recall reading once that Moore felt he'd finally learned how to hit in 1942... and then he's whisked away.

Ted, I envy your memories of the Polo Grounds, and of Ebbets Field.

[tedzan]

You will be pleased to know that I kept close tabs on your St Louis Cardinals as a kid in the late 1940's and early 1950's.
One of my best friends, Gary Morit, was an avid Cardinals fan. We would buy The Sporting News everyday and read up
on our favorite BB players and all the teams. Growing up in Hillside, NJ, we had quite an eclectic group of fans....my next
door neighbor John Sharkey (Phillies fan), Kurt Laughinghouse (Indians fan), Ron Jacobson (Giants fan). The Dodger fans
were Joe Kelleher, Charlie Cohen, Larry Shenven and Billy Brokaw.

And, I was the lone Yankees fan......and mind you, Phil Rizzuto lived just 2 blocks away from us. As early as age 10, we
knew all the stats and history of our respective teams. It was great, because we would engage in (sometimes heated)
discussions comparing our favorite team and ballplayers.

When we were not "Talkin BaseBall" we were playing it from morning till dark. Sometimes Stick Ball, sometimes Hardball.
Other times we would ride our bikes to the Newark Bears Stadium....and once, we even decided to peddle our bikes to
Ebbets Field (20 miles to the Hudson River and then a ferry boat ride to Brooklyn). But, that's a long story that I'll leave
for another time.

Best regards ole buddy,

TED Z

[FUBAR]

Ted

Sounds like your childhood was a mix of "The Sandlot" and "Stand By Me"

maybe you're Will Wheaton in disguise!