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  #1  
Old 12-10-2006, 09:27 AM
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Posted By: Bob

I have been a steadfast "non-soaker" but decided (with a great deal of trepidation) to see what would happen to a 1911 Zeenut with black scrapbook paper attached to the back which I recently won on ebay. No one seemed to have any ideas how Zeenuts might fare, it seems all the soaking going on is mostly with T205s and T206s, but I decided to give it a shot. I know a lot depends on the type of glue used, but using an eye dropper, saucer of water and a blunt tweezers, I was able to completely remove the paper. I put the water on the paper and its edges and not on the rest of the card and then immediately dried it with paper towels inside a phone book with lots of heavy books on it to keep it falt. That's the good news. The back looks fine, the front has a small "halo" effect where the water was. It looks very minor but enough to make me swear off this method in the future.
What is interesting is that I have seen, in the past, Zeenuts on ebay with the "halo", ungraded and also slabbed and was always curious. Now I know...

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  #2  
Old 12-10-2006, 09:42 AM
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Posted By: Jay

Can you post before and after scans if you have?

Thanks,
t206kid

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  #3  
Old 12-10-2006, 09:48 AM
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Posted By: David Vargha

The "halo effect" as you call it is from the constant dripping of the water and then letting it dry out. This is the same effect that you get at the bottom of a coffee mug as the little remaining liquid evaporates. There is no such ring when the cup is full. I don't know what the stock is on a Zeenut, but as long as it isn't a photographic plate (like a Fatima) then you should have immersed the card completely in distilled water (virtually no solids) to avoid the stains.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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  #4  
Old 12-10-2006, 10:00 AM
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Posted By: dan mckee

The ENTIRE card should be soaked under tap water. Patted dry, then placed between a flat wash cloth and 2 heavy books to dry the rest of the way. There will be NO staining at all from the water.

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  #5  
Old 12-10-2006, 10:03 AM
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Posted By: Jim Clarke

To add to Dan's comments. I would put the card face down so the water will soak thru the back of the card and not the front with the heavy books on top.

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  #6  
Old 12-10-2006, 10:05 AM
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Posted By: Joann

Wow Bob - I'm really glad you posted that. I won one of those Zeenuts too - awesome looking front w/black scrapbook paper remnant on the back. I half thought about seeing if I could get it off somehow. Now I think I'll just keep the bit of black paper on the back.

J

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  #7  
Old 12-10-2006, 10:35 AM
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Posted By: joe Brennan

Dan, Tap water? I disagree. Too many chemical tha would remain after the water evaporates. I would highly recommend distilled water. JMO though as I am a rookie.

People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

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  #8  
Old 12-10-2006, 11:28 AM
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Posted By: Jeff Mohler

The first time I soaked a card, I used tap water. I got the "halo" effect too. On Keith O'Leary's advice, I soaked it again in distilled water. The halo effect went away after the card was resoaked. Sad to say that the card (an E210) still graded an SGC 10. Way too many wrinkles that didn't come out with the soaking!!

I would try soaking the Zeenut again in distilled water and see what happens.

Jeff

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  #9  
Old 12-10-2006, 11:32 AM
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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Halo is becuase you dropped and dried. Gotta soak the whole card. Then no halo. And it isn't too late, put him in the water. Distilled water is better, but not absolutely necessary, unless you have very hard water, or you have a water softener. If you have either of those, then definitely go for distilled water. Filtered water is better than straight from the tap.

1911 Zeenuts soak just fine. I think when you get to "newer" Zeenuts they might not do so well in water.

Put that guy back in water, let him really soak, then dry him out, and let us know the new results.

Frank.

I've thought about setting any card of mine that I've soaked to remove glue and scrapbook crap... maybe put them in a separate box, to be burned when I die. It would be wrong to pass those on to anyone. NOT.

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  #10  
Old 12-10-2006, 12:16 PM
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Posted By: dan mckee

For the second time. SOAK THE ENTIRE CARD! There will be no halo or staining. I have been using tap water for 30 years so I know it works just fine. Baltimore tap water I use. I know different cities have different grades of city water so I can understand the distilled approach. I am just stating what works for me and I have thousands of cards to back me up. How many have you done? My point exactly. Face down or face up has never made a difference, the water dries out from both sides as the cloth is present on both sides. My T206 Plank has been soaked, 1933 Lajoie, 1910 Baltimore News. My only disaster, my 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle. I soaked him too long and he floated into 2 pieces! The top and bottom came apart. I elmers glued it back together and it resides in an SGC holder. Dan.

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  #11  
Old 12-10-2006, 12:35 PM
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Posted By: Brad

Q:Is this procedure considered altering?

Q:Would cards get rejected from grading companys if they noticed a halo affect?


Can anyone please post a scan of this "halo affect"?


Very interesting thread!


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  #12  
Old 12-10-2006, 12:50 PM
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Posted By: howard

Dan, what grade did SGC give the Mantle?

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  #13  
Old 12-10-2006, 01:25 PM
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Posted By: Bob

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting


After scans, the before scan is gone.

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  #14  
Old 12-10-2006, 01:34 PM
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Posted By: Blach

Show us the back.

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  #15  
Old 12-10-2006, 01:36 PM
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Posted By: steve f

The last Q&A on this link is interesting;

http://www.amigos.org/preservation/faq/preserve.html

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  #16  
Old 12-10-2006, 01:51 PM
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Posted By: Bob

Card is drying after a complete bath. I'll post a scan tonight of the outcome.
BTW- No, I won't be offering the card for sale, this 1911 Zeenut will go in to my permanent collection after being graded by SGC, as all my Zeenuts are graded by them.

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  #17  
Old 12-10-2006, 02:10 PM
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Posted By: Brad

Sorry, wrong thread!~

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  #18  
Old 12-10-2006, 03:40 PM
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Posted By: Dan Bretta

The only cards I've ever soaked off are Scrapps and I used tap water to do it...granted our water is high quality here so distilled is probably best for most people. I use typing paper to dry the cards...changing the sheets every 5-10 minutes until there is little to no water left in the card then I let the card sit in the book between the typing paper over night. It has worked like a charm 5 times for me now.

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  #19  
Old 12-10-2006, 04:00 PM
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Posted By: Bob

Halo is gone, thanks guys. Note on the back that the thick black paper is gone also, little bit of staining but it was there before.

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  #20  
Old 12-10-2006, 04:19 PM
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Posted By: E, Daniel

I just have to say that makes me so uncomfortable in my gut.
I realize that you are free to do as you will, and the debate has raged and achieved nothing.
So, you are able to shout out your pride at soaking cards by the scores, and hopefully I am free to be unhappy about it. I'm super super conservative on this issue, and just wish cards were left as they were found - if you pull them out of a scrapbook and there is damage, that should be the cost of removal.
My opinion, and I certainly won't be changing anyone elses.

sincerely
daniel


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  #21  
Old 12-10-2006, 04:25 PM
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Posted By: leon

You are absolutely correct. Your opinion, or mine, or anyone's won't change the matter. I, for one, don't care if cards have been soaked or not...but we've had this debate forever.....

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  #22  
Old 12-10-2006, 04:38 PM
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Posted By: E, Daniel

I know Leon, and I apologize for even posting....
It's almost a pavlovian thing for me, and I start feeling sick if i don't begin typing a response immediately. I've always been ruled by my gut, which is why it grows ever so slowly each year.

Happy collecting everyone over the holidays, and everyone to their will.


Kind regards
Daniel

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  #23  
Old 12-10-2006, 04:52 PM
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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

I am real uncomfortable with this "soaking" thread. Why is this any different than coloring a border or trimming the edge? Do you disclose the soaking when you sell the cards? If you are keeping the cards in your own collection, then do what you want to do with your cards, but when the time comes to sell, the soaking should be disclosed.

Rick

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  #24  
Old 12-10-2006, 06:18 PM
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Posted By: Matthew

The best way to soak cardboard or paper from the back of early Zeenuts is using distilled water. I use a foam plate (with edges) & let the entire card soak for a couple minutes. The paper will usually completely come off or at the most a small amt may have to be removed. Using some copy paper, press the card dry a few times, then leave it in a heavy book for a day or so. I personally see nothing wrong with it but I don't plan on selling them any time soon anyway.

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  #25  
Old 12-10-2006, 06:25 PM
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Posted By: T206Collector

The fact of the matter is that a lot of high grade T206 cards are that way because they were pasted into a scrapbook for the past 100 years and then carefully removed with a little help from a saucer of water. Indeed, my best work resides in an SGC 70 holder as part of my permament collection. It's a gorgeous card.

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  #26  
Old 12-10-2006, 06:37 PM
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Posted By: E, Daniel

With enormous respect Paul, you don't get to cram down your facts of life down my throat, and then spend endless time bitching, moaning, and insinuating wrongdoing about trimmed t206's living in PSA8 holders.
You've chosen where you are happy to draw the line, you would have a lot of support with that stance, and then others who would think your choices unsavoury.....so you live with yours, and I'll live with mine.
I don't believe in soaking, or any other form of screwing with a card's condition. Does that mean I'm pushing up hill. Yep. Do I need your condescension? I thought I had worded my post well enough to avoid it.

Sincerely
Daniel

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  #27  
Old 12-10-2006, 06:46 PM
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Posted By: T206Collector

I'm not sure how to respond to that post -- I certainly wasn't trying to come across as condescending. Since you and I are on opposite sides of this issue, I understand why my posts will always be read by you with some measure of skepticism or even disdain. But, I assure you, I thought your last post was quite politic -- I am comfortable living in our separate worlds and respecting the choices of the others.

I draw my lines where PSA and SGC draw their lines. In other posts I have taken issue with grading companies that set certain standards (i.e., no grading trimming cards) and then violate those standards. I also think that people that want to set different standards -- i.e., that soaking is an impermissible alteration -- should start by lobbying the grading services, which permit erasures and soaking even when they are obvious.

Sincerely,

Paul

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  #28  
Old 12-10-2006, 06:50 PM
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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Well done, Bob. I was afraid you were going to leave the halo and forget about it.


Guys, what Bob did was remove something from the back of the card that should not have been there in the first place.

He didn't add anything, color, build up the corners, anything like that. If he were soaking and stretching and retrimming, I too have trouble with that. It really is where you draw the line. Golly, removing a bit of scrapbook and flour paste, I preceive he has a duty to the card to do that.

Good job, Bob.

Joann, you need some distilled water, paper towels, typing paper, and some heavy books. Soak your Zeenut, float that stuff off, pat him dry, then sandwich him between paper and books. Your Zeenut needs your help and is depending on it.


Right on, the PSA 1 and 2 T206s rubbed around in a kid's pants pocket, those PSA 7s were in scrapbooks, soaked off. That is how those corners survived the generations. If you feel violated and evil for having them, mail them to me and I'll rid you from the guilt. I'm here to help.


Frank.

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  #29  
Old 12-10-2006, 07:21 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Rick and Daniel,,

I agree with you--it is very sad that collectors are soaking cards--just another form of card alteration.

One would have hoped with all the controversy around Mastronet that it would put this behavior to a halt.

Very sad.

Jim

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  #30  
Old 12-10-2006, 07:34 PM
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Posted By: T206Collector

Jim,

Do you agree that many or at least some PSA/SGC 8 T206 cards got that way by being wonderfully preserved in a scrapbook before being soaked in water to remove all evidence of scrapbooking?

And, if the great majority of high grade T206 cards have already been slabbed, how do you propose finding which ones were soaked if the evidence is, as Steve Foreman has said, undetectable? How do you propose dealing with all these cards that have already been slabbed?

Paul

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  #31  
Old 12-10-2006, 07:36 PM
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Posted By: Brian Weisner

I can only speak for T206's, but I know of at least 4000+ cards which have been found since the late 80's that are in Ex+ or better condition. Are some cards in holders trimmed or doctored, yes, but in my opionion a very small percentage. The fact is that there are plenty of T206's out there in 80/6 or better condition that have not be tampered with, but I can't speak to Caramels or other tough issues, because there distribution numbers compared to T206's is so small.

Be well Brian

PS soaking OJ'S and early trade cards has been an excepted practice for several decades, so I don't see what the big fuss is about. Soaking won't magically erase creases, but will restore a card to it's original state.
I don't think anyone on the board thinks that rebuilding a corner or adding a color to a card is an acceptable practice.


Jim, You can dectect whether a card has been soaked or not, and I doubt that many of the PSA/SGC 8'S HAVE been. I have about 15-20 7's and 8's slabbed by PSA and another 20+ slabbed by SGC and will guarentee that none have been altered in any way. 90% were purchased from original find's and the other 10% over an extended period of time.

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  #32  
Old 12-10-2006, 07:41 PM
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Posted By: T206Collector

All apologies to those that would vomit over this, but I really do love this card:

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Before I sent it off to SGC, it had a thin layer of paper covering 3/4 of the back. I got it for a song. When I dipped it in water, the paper practically removed itself and there was no glue residue. I dried it between the pages of a very big book and then sent it off to SGC. I don't think this is an impermissible alteration at all.

But, of course, adding color and paper restoration are HUGE bads. I think everyone agrees with that. Where do I draw the line -- where does PSA/SGC draw the line? As Brian said, at alterations that do something other than returning the card to its original state.

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  #33  
Old 12-10-2006, 07:41 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell



You guys should not stop here--lets see all you guys who stretch out the cards and trim them give detailed instructions to us all as well.

And please since this is apparently widespread at least among the auction houses lets see all the detailed instructions on taking light creases out of the cards.

After all, on the premier vintage baseball card message board in the hobby, we ought to be able to benefit from all the expertise that exists on how to alter and restore cards.

Jim

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  #34  
Old 12-10-2006, 07:44 PM
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Posted By: T206Collector

[You guys should not stop here--lets see all you guys who stretch out the cards and trim them give detailed instructions to us all as well.]

Jim,

The way that you view the soakers is the way that I view the stretchers and trimmers. We just draw our lines differently.

Brian,

I don't think water soaking T206 cards is detectable. And, if it is, SGC sure slabs a lot of them.


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  #35  
Old 12-10-2006, 07:47 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Brian,

I hope and pray that you are right and that it is just a small percentage of psa 8s that have been doctored and that you can tell if a card has been soaked and that very few cards that are soaked wind up in psa or sgc 8 holders.

It is just horrible to do this.

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  #36  
Old 12-10-2006, 07:53 PM
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Posted By: T206Collector

Jim,

I recognize you are not responding to my posts or questions. But if we will never know what "percentage of psa 8's that have been doctored" or whether "a card has been soaked" or how many that "are soaked wind up in psa or sgc 8 holders," isn't it possible that you may have to change your standards?

All I am saying is that if you start spending thousands of dollars on high grade cards, doesn't it make sense to understand the rules of the card grading game BEFORE you drop that kind of coin? And if you understand that water soaked cards are routinely slabbed by SGC -- I've never had one rejected on that basis -- then you can make an educated decision about whether you want to set down a couple thousand dollars on one?

I think you are most upset because you have spent untold thousands on cards, only to find out that the auction houses you purchased cards from and the card graders themselves have adhered to a standard different from the one that you now espouse.

Ultimately, it's none of my business, and I'm really not trying to be a d*ck about any of this. But I love my soaked SGC graded cards and I think there's nothing wrong with them.

Paul

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  #37  
Old 12-10-2006, 07:54 PM
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Posted By: Brian Weisner


Hi Jim,
I can assure you that I am not a stretcher or a trimmer, and wouldn't have the slightest idea how it is done. And I have soaked probably less than 20 cards in 30 years, and most of those were scrapps, so I'm hardly an expert.

Paul, I don't know if SGC/psa can tell whether a card has been soaked, but in most cases, I can, the texture is slightly different, as well as the rigidity(is that a word) of the card.


Be well Brian

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  #38  
Old 12-10-2006, 07:56 PM
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Posted By: T206Collector

[I don't know if SGC/psa can tell whether a card has been soaked, but in most cases, I can, the texture is slightly different, as well as the rigidity(is that a word) of the card.]

I would agree that in some cases you can tell the difference by texture. But there is no way of knowing whether the texture is different because the card was left in a humid cellar for 50 years, or soaked in a bottle of Poland Spring last week -- which is why I think SGC just slabs them all.

I will say, however, that the Pfeister above was in water for about 10 seconds before the paper on the back peeled right off. It was not emersed in water long enough for the texture to have any noticeable effect.


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  #39  
Old 12-10-2006, 07:59 PM
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Posted By: Brian Weisner


Jim,
I will be ahppy to email you pictures of all of my high grade T206'S, of which NONE have been soaked if you would like, and would also be happy to examine your cards and give you my opinion. I think soaking is the least of your worries, trimming on T206's especially high grade is a much bigger problem. Soaking doesn't change the make up of the card, but slicing a little off an over sized border is bull sh@@@T....and shouldn't be tolerated. Be well Brian

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Old 12-10-2006, 08:00 PM
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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

However one views soaking, I think Paul is right that in most cases either it cannot be detected or grading services will not reject a card for that reason alone. If it warps the paper and turns the card into Malibu Beach, sure, but my understanding is that if done using certain techniques that won't happen. So how does one then detect it? Indeed I believe Dave Forman said as much in the conversation with Leon which Leon published here.

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  #41  
Old 12-10-2006, 08:04 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Paul,
This is not the way I think and its a bit unffair of you to suggest that economics drive my thinking.

It is very simple. It is the difference between right and wrong. While I wish that there were no soaked cards in psa or sgc holders that does not make my decision different on doing it from here.

Only a small part of my net worth is in cards and I want to see the hobby do what is the right thing.

And the right thing is to stop the alteration and restoration of cards immediately. These are treasures and should be kept in an unaltered state.

Jim

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  #42  
Old 12-10-2006, 08:04 PM
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Posted By: T206Collector

...but I do want to say something that I hope helps:

I really don't mean to offend anyone. These arguments get very personal -- when Jim says it's "horrible," I feel like he's telling me my collection sucks and I'm a card doctor. I don't feel that way, so I respond that I am just adhering to the standards accepted by the major grading companies.

I'm totally sick of these fights and wish we could all come to some sort of consensus. To me, if everyone would understand that a card can be soaked without showing any ill effects, then they'd realize it doesn't matter which ones have been soaked and which ones haven't. But it may just be a chicken and the egg thing. I don't know. I'm too tired. Must go to sleep.

Still, please, I have no ill will towards anyone. These arguments have been going on forever and I think I may just have to stop entertaining them. But it's like Daniel said, when someone calls soaking a card "horrible," it just makes my blood boil -- in much the same way as when someone that doesn't agree with soaking has to put up with a few lessons from the card soakers here.

I really must go to sleep.

Paul

p.s. Jim, sorry about putting economics into. That was an unfair personal shot.

p.p.s. Just read Brian's last post and I think it is SPOT ON! I agree with the following 100%

[I think soaking is the least of your worries, trimming on T206's especially high grade is a much bigger problem. Soaking doesn't change the make up of the card, but slicing a little off an over sized border is bull sh@@@T....and shouldn't be tolerated.]



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  #43  
Old 12-10-2006, 08:08 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Brian,

I appreciate it and you might be right. I am most concerned about microtrimming/reshaping but also other things I believe are fundamentally and morally wrong including crease removal, soaking, stretching,power erasing or anything else to alter or restore the card

Whether a card is trimmed or not trimmed it seems to have no impact on value--with the psa 8s all that matters is the pop.

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Old 12-10-2006, 08:13 PM
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Default About soaking cards

Posted By: JimCrandell

Paul,

We disagree--you seem like a good guy--if I am lucky we will meet soon.

But I do think its horrible and I do believe that those who soak cards are card doctors.

Jim

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Old 12-10-2006, 08:25 PM
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Default About soaking cards

Posted By: Dan Bretta

I would be willing to bet that 99% of all Scrapps "cards" that are in slabs have been soaked at one time or another.

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Old 12-10-2006, 08:25 PM
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Default About soaking cards

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

A card doctor... if my T206 is sickly, with paste and black scrapbook remains on its back, out of the way, I'll heal that sickly card.

It isn't a question of right and wrong, even if you keep repeating that mantra.

It might be a question of degree... That paste and scrap isn't part of the card, nothing wrong with removing it.


And to take some position that none of your cards have ever been soaked, maybe true if you have no cards, or only Upper Deck cards. If you have a T206 card, it may well have been soaked in the 20s, or 30s or 40s... or the 90s, or even this century... and maybe more than once. Orignial finds my hind end... maybe if you pulled it from a Piedmont pack, maybe then it has never been soaked.


I seem to recall that this is a thread about soaking. When I posted in those other threads folks were quick to suggest that I not read them or post in them if I didn't agree with them. I'm not suggesting you guys consider that. To the contrary, I want you to read, and learn where the line should be.

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Old 12-10-2006, 08:42 PM
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Default About soaking cards

Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

While I highly respect Jim's purist views, at the same time I think one has to consider how widespread and generally accepted the practice of soaking is, and has been historically, as explained by Frank and others, before condemning those who practice or condone it.

I would also guess, for example, there is not a major card dealer or auction house that would not flatten out a corner flip.

I don't see this subject in black and white terms, and I don't think in this day and age it is realistic to do so. I think it is a spectrum along which there are a lot of nuances.

Finally, I think this thread reinforces that it would be difficult or not impossible ever to get a meaningful consensus.

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Old 12-10-2006, 08:54 PM
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Default About soaking cards

Posted By: Steve M.

Peter, I disagree, unless, of course, you consider a consensus to equate with unanimity. If a consensus is more than 50% surely there is a consensus...soaking is acceptable. I submit it would be closer to 90% and there you really have a consensus. Count me in the 90%.

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Old 12-10-2006, 09:03 PM
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Default About soaking cards

Posted By: Dan Bretta

I'm with Steve. Card soaking has and will always be acceptable by most card collectors. I don't understand what the big deal is with removing scrap book residue or glue if it is undetectable. I would be willing to bet that many of Jim's PSA 8 cards have been soaked and he could never tell.

If it's impossible to detect then why worry about it? That just seems like unnecessary angst.

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Old 12-10-2006, 09:54 PM
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Default About soaking cards

Posted By: JK

"It is very simple. It is the difference between right and wrong."
"It is just horrible to do this"
"But I do think its horrible and I do believe that those who soak cards are card doctors."


All I can say is wow - how very arrogant. I love all the purist who try to make those of us who believe that erasing pencil or soaking a card is not doctoring, feel morally bankrupt. Particularly when I can almost guarantee that if they accidentally and hypothetically spilled something on one of their precious unaltered cards (or to use an example that another member has used in the past, a piece of snot landed on it) they would immediately wipe the card clean.

For what its worth, I agree with what I believe to be the majority view (implicitly accepted by the grading companies) that soaking is not doctoring or altering (as long as its not accompanied by stretching/trimming).

Soaked and proud to have it in my collection:

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