1918 Ticket - who got it wrong?

[Shoeless Moe]

bought and sold, and re-sold but as a different game, who was incorrect 1st seller or 2nd seller?

Cleveland at Washington:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1918-Washing...p2047675.l2557


Boston at Washington:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1918-Walter-...p2047675.l2557

[Shoeless Moe]

both are board members by the way, but I don't think # 2 comments, just observes and reads the posts. Would love for him to comment, but doubtful.

[rholmes]

I was the seller of the ticket originally, and just calculated the game using a linear counting of home games. The guy that bought it from me used some voodoo counting to calculate the game he thought it was. He could have been correct, I didn't actually read his entire ebay listing. The only sure thing is, if the ticket isn't printed with the date and there isn't any other credible writing on it indicating date, any date/game assigned to the ticket is a leap of faith.

By the way, the guy who bought the ticket from me pm'd me on ebay about a different 1918 ticket I had, and from the angle of being a collector (that's how I took it) asked if I had any others. I said I did, and sold him the ticket he ended up flipping- using a different selling account than the one he'd pm'd me from. I wasn't really that enamored of the sort of deke he pulled and I doubt I'll ever be selling to him again. All's fair.

[Scott Garner]

FWIW, retrosheet.org lists game 11, 1918 as being a game played between the Senators and Cleveland, not Boston and Babe Ruth.

Walter Johnson and the Nats prevailed 1-0 over starting pitcher Bagby and the Indians. This was one of WaJo's record career 110 shutouts if it's any consolation.

[Shoeless Moe]

It's just shows how Ebay buyers buy/believe what they read, anybody could have gone to baseball reference and seen it wasn't the game seller 2 was claiming it to be.

Not sure if he read it wrong or their was intent to deceive.

But 3 bidders ALL who did not do their homework and the (un)lucky winner for $338 with a Ticket PSA won't even encapsuate, well not to the game he believes it to be anyway.

[Shoeless Moe]

Yah good consolation I guess Scott, at least the winner got a Big Train shutout, of course no date on the ticket, so not sure that either can be confirmed beyond a reasonable doubt.


Seller 2 also wrote it like it was a pitching matchup of Ruth vs Johnson, but someone else started and went 9 innings for the Senators, Johnson just came in at the end. So there was no pitching matchup, they just played in the same game.

Glad my mom always taught me to do my homework.

[Scott Garner]

BTW, I purchased one of the game 61 tickets (different game in which was a WaJo 14 inning win) from the 1918 season from Ray Holmes (nice guy BTW) here on net54.

These tickets were removed from a 1918 scrapbook according to Ray and were surrounded by other items related to 1918. Additionally, there is a yet to be released terrific book on Washington Senators tickets coming out that is written by baseball ticket super collector & historian Dan Busby. I have a pre-release copy of this book in hand.

Ray's tickets are consistent with Senators tickets from 1918 based on Team President, font, ticket price, etc. I truly believe these to be from the 1918 season & the rest of the research can be done looking at game log notes....

Ticket dates did not appear on any Nats tickets until the mid- 1920's, BTW. They simply did not exist yet. The only way to nail down years and dates for the earlier Nats games comes from a situation where you are fortunate enough to find that the patron wrote info on the ticket or in a scrapbook...

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Additionally, there is a yet to be released terrific book on Washington Senators tickets coming out that is written by baseball ticket super collector & historian Dan Busby. I have a pre-release copy of this book in hand.

I'd just as soon wait for the movie : )

[rholmes]

Hi Scott!

All true about the tickets and the scrapbook. It was compiled by a guy who worked in DC for basically just over one calendar year, beginning in November of 1917 and ending early in 1919. There were a few random misc items from the late 20's at the very end of the scrapbook, but literally everything else represented his one year living and working in Washington-- theater tickets, rent receipts, written correspondence, telegrams, etc. Not a percentage of doubt in my mind that the Senators tix were from 1918.

[Shoeless Moe]

Since his reply was a bit long, I'm just going to cut and paste and you can read it, if it turns out I was wrong, I apologize to him:

"you just have to refer to the original schedule when determining game numbers. Each game for the season was assigned a game number before the season started. 1-77. Those game numbers never change no matter what happens. Game 2 is still game #2 even if game #1 gets rained out. But if you look at retrosheet....game 2 is going to look like game 1 because game #1 (rain out) isn't shown. think about a season ticket booklet with each ticket in the book having a game number on it...game 1 is for 1st scheduled game....game #2 is for 2nd scheduled game, etc. The game # and corresponding date is shown on the back cover. if game 2 is rained out...you don't use game #2----you jump right to game #3. Same with box office tickets...they printed games 1-77 for each of the 77 scheduled home games. game #11 was determined before the season started....

Take for instance the opening day 1923 yankees ticket shown Its dated and has game #1 on it. If that game had been rained out you could have used that ticket for any other game in 1923 but when you went to the game the next day... they were selling game #2 tickets. (with a different date on them.... because game # 2 was scheduled for the next day)Looking at retrosheet.... its going to be the 1st game but its not game #1...its game #2. You have to factor rainouts in when determining game number. The guy with a season ticket book uses game #2 ...because he is at HOME GAME #2 as determined by the original AL schedule. The game # never changes. It is preassigned and used the entire season. Tickets were printed before the season started. In this case... game #4 ticket and game #6 ticket were not used because of rain outs. So when you count to the 11th home game played---it was actually home game #13.

So opening day....they sell out and use all the game #1 tickets. everybody is ready for the game to start...it rains...they go home. Game #1 is done. Game #1 tickets are gone.


(People can use their rain check for a later game but game #1 never happened. ) Its not on retrosheet. In your scenario...they sell game #1 tickets again the next day? Absolutely not... they sell game #2 tickets because its the 2nd scheduled game. Actual games played has nothing to do with the game # on the ticket. Just always consult the original schedule ---not the log of games played.

for example, the back of the 1928 yankees season ticket shows each scheduled game for the year 1-77 and the corresponding affiliated date. No matter what happened during the course of the year...rain outs, makeups, etc. those game numbers and associated dates did not change. Game #11 was played on May 5th and game #11 tickets were sold and used on that date. Even if games 1-10 were rained out-- May 5th was game 11. Even though it would have been the 1st home game actually played that year.

for instance, attached are a dated and undated copy of a ticket to lou gehrigs last game on 4/30/39. Both tickets say Game #8 on them. go to retrosheet and look at what "game number" that game was "actually". It was the 5th game played that year but tickets used on 4/30/39 were the game #8 tickets because there were 3 rainouts prior to the game being played. They didn't sell dated tickets with game #8 on them and sell game #5 undated tickets --it was all game #8. it was established before the season (when all of the tickets were printed) that 4/30/39 was game #8. If game #7 started at 1:00 pm and after numerous rain delays gets called due to darkness at 8:00 pm... they didn't say, Oh crap...we have to run down to the printing company and print up 50,000 game 7 tickets for tomorrow because this game 7 didnt count and tomorrow is going to be game 7 again because its going to be our actual 7th home game again!" It was just game 8 the next day"

so there you have it.

[Scott Garner]

Paul & all on net54,

Thanks for posting that today.
The second seller David Maus also reached out to me with the same explanation last night and this morning.

Following his logic and checking the original Nats schedule for 1918, I must say that I concur with his belief that game 11, did in fact, coincide with the Ruth- Walter Johnson game that he referenced in his auction. The two rainout or inclement weather cancellations that occurred in Wash early in their schedule in 1918 created the disparity in the result.

I must say that I'm always amazed at how much there still to learn in this hobby even when you've been at it for so long. I continue to learn every day...
Thanks to all that contribute to the journey.

[nolemmings]

Still confusing. I take it then that when make up games were played you did not and perhaps could not use a ticket number other than what had been held as a prior rained-out game?
For the seller's reasoning to prevail, the original schedule would have looked like this:
HOME:
1. NY
2. NY
3. NY
4. PHI
5. PHI
6. PHI
7. PHI
8. PHI
ROAD for 10 games
HOME again
9. Bos
10. Bos
11. Bos---ticket used for game 11, even if two were rained out
12. Cle
13. Cle

So they had a 5 game set with Philly at the beginning of the year, with two rained out? Or was one or more of the rainouts just made up right away? I don't know, certainly could be. It just seems odd to have a five game series, but hey, maybe that's how they rolled back then.

[Shoeless Moe]

Agree, I'm a bit confused as well. I still would think the only real way of knowing for certain is if someone has a 1918 Washington Schedule. Not one from the internet, but an actual schedule from back then.

I know there are a lot of schedule collectors on the board, maybe someone has one.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Still confusing. I take it then that when make up games were played you did not and perhaps could not use a ticket number other than what had been held as a prior rained-out game?
For the seller's reasoning to prevail, the original schedule would have looked like this:
HOME:
1. NY
2. NY
3. NY
4. PHI
5. PHI
6. PHI
7. PHI
8. PHI
ROAD for 10 games
HOME again
9. Bos
10. Bos
11. Bos---ticket used for game 11, even if two were rained out
12. Cle
13. Cle

So they had a 5 game set with Philly at the beginning of the year, with two rained out? Or was one or more of the rainouts just made up right away? I don't know, certainly could be. It just seems odd to have a five game series, but hey, maybe that's how they rolled back then.

Hi Todd,
The ticket patron would use ticket 11 for the 11th game on the original scheduled game of the year at Wash (date is 5/9/18 vs. BOS on original schedule). regardless of what occurred prior to that. As it was, there were two dates that were not played on the schedule due to inclement weather- Game #4 4/18/18 Rain out & Game 6 4/20/18- Rain out.

I hope this helps clarify.

This is even more clear because this occurred early in the 1918 season

[nolemmings]

Might also be found in a Spalding or Reach guide, or similar periodical.

[nolemmings]

So humor me please . Suppose that Philly set was only three games, and two were washed out but immediately made up in the next two days. Tickets 4 and 6 are considered spent, even though those games were rained out. Now I go to the make up games. Do/can I use tickets 7 and 8 for games that were not on the schedule originally? And if so, game 7 tickets will presumably not be available for the first game of the following series--the one originally scheduled against Boston. That ticket will be considered spent, right? Can I use my game 7 for the makeup game and you use yours for the first Boston game?

EDITED to add: FWIW, I would guess that Philly set was a four gamer, Thursday through Monday with Sunday off due to Blue laws, and that Tuesday was a makeup game.

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Hi Todd,
The ticket patron would use ticket 11 for the 11th game on the original scheduled game of the year at Wash (date is 5/9/18 vs. BOS on original schedule). regardless of what occurred prior to that. As it was, there were two dates that were not played on the schedule due to inclement weather- Game #4 4/18/18 Rain out & Game 6 4/20/18- Rain out.

I hope this helps clarify.

This is even more clear because this occurred early in the 1918 season

[Scott Garner]

Todd,
Tickets to an assigned game are to an assigned game as per the original schedule. This info may be found on retrosheet.org by following the links to "schedule" and it is a raw data feed, but can be followed.

BTW, inclement weather does not always result in a patron having the ticket torn. As a season ticket holder, I have had games that were never played, or attempted to be played, due to extreme weather snow-blizzard, very heavy rain, etc.

Anyway, for the sake of argument, lets say that two games in a series were attended by a patron that were called on account of rain. Not wanting to lose their portion of the attendance gate for the rainouts, both teams decide that they will play back-to-back unscheduled day/day double headers (no night games in 1918! ). Your torn rain check for one of the games could be used to gain admission for the unscheduled double header game not on the schedule.
"Rain checks" may be used typically for any other game moving forward in the (1918 in this case) schedule.

Here is a real example of a situation that actually happened to net54 board member Randall Hahn and me in 2008:
SF's Randy Johnson was in Washington to play the Nationals and go after his 300th career win. Randall & I are both in town to hopefully see history.
The day of RJ's 300th win game it absolutely just poured rain all day- all night. We went to the game anyway, but it never got played due to the relentless rain.

The game was played the next day as an unscheduled early day game prior to the scheduled game later that night. The ticket from the rainout could be exchanged for a ticket to the early makeup game. The patrons that had tickets to the regularly scheduled night game were not allowed to go to the early game without purchasing the other ticket. Anyway RJ did get his 300th win and the rest is history. Randall Hahn saw RJ get the 300th win, but I could not because I had an earlier flight the morning of.

BTW, Emergency tickets or "E tickets" were used by teams to sell for use in unscheduled games, although I don't know if that practice dated back to the early 1900's.

[nolemmings]

Thanks Scott, I guess that was my point. In those makeup game scenarios, I understand that a rain check could be used. I also guessed that some generic makeup tickets could be used for walk-up patrons on the day of a previously unscheduled game. Those tix would have no date or game number on them, presumably. Since I don't collect tickets, I do not know what the practice was at the time.

So in this case, where I would think that the sixth game actually played was a makeup game, then the ticket numbered for game 7 could not be used there. Also, someone who owned a ticket numbered 4 or 6, which were rained out, either never went to another game or could have presented it as a rain check to any make-up game that season. That begs another question I suppose-- unless you know for sure that some memorable game from 1918 was played on the date originally scheduled (not a makeup game), then you couldn't be sure if a numbered ticket was "game used" and thus a witness to the event, right?

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Thanks Scott, I guess that was my point. In those makeup game scenarios, I understand that a rain check could be used. I also guessed that some generic makeup tickets could be used for walk-up patrons on the day of a previously unscheduled game. Those tix would have no date or game number on them, presumably. Since I don't collect tickets, I do not know what the practice was at the time.

So in this case, where I would think that the sixth game actually played was a makeup game, then the ticket numbered for game 7 could not be used there. Also, someone who owned a ticket numbered 4 or 6, which were rained out, either never went to another game or could have presented it as a rain check to any make-up game that season. That begs another question I suppose-- unless you know for sure that some memorable game from 1918 was played on the date originally scheduled (not a makeup game), then you couldn't be sure if a numbered ticket was "game used" and thus a witness to the event, right?

Todd,
The Emergency ticket (E Ticket) that I described in my last post is the generic ticket that you are asking about.
Game used = stub
Not game used = full ticket

That has changed today though because of the practice of "scanning" the modern ticket as opposed to tearing it into a stub

By the way, several memorable historic games have occurred as unscheduled games:
Here are two examples:
Denny McLain's historic 31st and final win (Last pitcher to ever win 30 in a season)- Also Mickey Mantle's second to last HR which McLain admittedly "grooved" for his boyhood idol.
HOF Wade Boggs' ML debut

[Darner]

Washington was scheduled to play four against the Yankees followed by four against the Athletics.

The fourth game against the Yankees was rained out (New York Sun, April 19, 1918).

The Philadelphia-Washington game scheduled for April 20th was rained out (New York Sun, April 21, 1918)

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Darner

Washington was scheduled to play four against the Yankees followed by four against the Athletics.

The fourth game against the Yankees was rained out (New York Sun, April 19, 1918).

The Philadelphia-Washington game scheduled for April 20th was rained out (New York Sun, April 21, 1918)

Exactly!

[nolemmings]

By the way, several memorable historic games have occurred as unscheduled games:
Here are two examples:
Denny McLain's historic 31st and final win (Last pitcher to ever win 30 in a season)- Also Mickey Mantle's second to last HR which McLain admittedly "grooved" for his boyhood idol.
HOF Wade Boggs' ML debut

And so those games would not have a date-specific ticket, nor a ticket that referred to game number "XX", correct? In which case how could you be add a ticket or stub from such a game to your collection?

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

And so those games would not have a date-specific ticket, nor a ticket that referred to game number "XX", correct? In which case how could you be add a ticket or stub from such a game to your collection?

Know what you were looking for in advance.
In the example of the McLain 31st win, I was offered this ticket by a reputable dealer from the Detroit area, that I knew quite well from past dealings, at the Cleveland National quite a few years ago.

The ticket was an Detroit Emergency ticket from 1968. The patron that used the ticket to gain entrance had written info about the Mickey Mantle HR on the back of the ticket. I offered this ticket to another hobby close friend, who was the largest collector of Mickey Mantle HR tickets, but did not own the ticket.
Ironically, he turned me down, opting to wait for a printed date version of this ticket. For several years I did the same, keeping the ticket, but still always looking to upgrade. We would have never found the dated version of the ticket because it was an unscheduled make up game from earlier in the year. It was only once I discovered this upon doing some research that I realized I had the only available type ticket to this historic game. My friend never did find another ticket to fill this hole in his great collection before he passed away a few years ago.
Lesson learned: Do your homework before immediately dismissing tickets with no printed dates....

O/T Eventually, I traded this ticket away to another collector that had a no-hitter ticket that I needed for my collection. Eventually I found a second ticket to this game which I used to replace it. One of the keys to knowing that the ticket is legit is to know that the Tigers changed their ticket prices mid-year in 1968. The emergency tickets that were issued for the McLain 31st win game were stamped with the changed price plus the patron on the second ticket notated McLain's 31st win and Mickey Mantle's HR on the back in neat ball point pen. I don't have a photo of this ticket, but I will try to add it later for reference.

[nolemmings]

Very informative--thank you.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Very informative--thank you.

You're welcome!

[megalimey]

here is some more info
In the event of a rain out the rescheduled game is part of a single admission double header, Tickets for the game originally scheduled to be played on the double header the actual game date ticket will have priority over the rain check and the rain check can either be: (i) "exchanged" for the same priced ticket for the single admission double header, subject to availability; or (ii) exchanged for a same priced ticket for any regular season home game of the Club within 12 months of the originally scheduled Game, subject to availability.

, ticket would have to be "exchanged" and not able to be just presented at turnstiles ,this was done to avoid over capacity or have two people fighting over the same seat imagine the chaos if that was the case

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Very informative--thank you.

+1
Any idea if/when/where that in-depth book was released?

[megalimey]

Great summation , 100% accurate , I co authored the article posted on PSA website on undated Yankees ticket , and PSA Yankee ticket submissions have increased 400% since article posted , its amazing how many people make the same mistake , counting down home games played,
here some thing many people do not know
if you go to retro original schedules here is the link
http://www.retrosheet.org/schedule/

scroll down to the years which are in blue
you can download any particular year you will need a zip file opener
as you stated in 1939 there were several rainouts
as you can see they do show those games I have included a partial segment of 1939 Yankees are listed NYA
"19390417","0","Mon","PIT","NL",1,"CIN","NL",1,"D","",""
"19390417","0","Mon","NYA","AL",1,"WS1","AL",1,"D","Rain","19390629"
"19390418","0","Tue","NY1","NL",1,"BRO","NL",1,"D","",""
"19390418","0","Tue","PHI","NL",1,"BSN","NL",1,"D","Rain","19390709"
"19390418","0","Tue","CIN","NL",2,"CHN","NL",1,"D","Rain","19390702"
"19390418","0","Tue","CHA","AL",1,"DET","AL",1,"D","",""
"19390418","0","Tue","BOS","AL",1,"NYA","AL",2,"D","Rain","19390708"
"19390418","0","Tue","WS1","AL",2,"PHA","AL",1,"D","Rain","19390706"
"19390418","0","Tue","SLN","NL",1,"PIT","NL",2,"D","",""
"19390418","0","Tue","CLE","AL",1,"SLA","AL",1,"D","Rain","19390708"
"19390419","0","Wed","NY1","NL",2,"BRO","NL",2,"D","Rain","19390708"
"19390419","1","Wed","PHI","NL",2,"BSN","NL",2,"A","",""
"19390419","2","Wed","PHI","NL",3,"BSN","NL",3,"D","Rain","19390816"
"19390419","0","Wed","CIN","NL",3,"CHN","NL",2,"D","Cold","19390808"
"19390419","0","Wed","CHA","AL",2,"DET","AL",2,"D","Cold","19390701"
"19390419","0","Wed","BOS","AL",2,"NYA","AL",3,"D","Rain","19390709"
"19390419","0","Wed","WS1","AL",3,"PHA","AL",2,"D","Wet grounds","19390708"
"19390419","0","Wed","SLN","NL",2,"PIT","NL",3,"D","Cold","19390709"
"19390419","0","Wed","CLE","AL",2,"SLA","AL",2,"D","Cold","19390709"
"19390420","0","Thu","NY1","NL",3,"BRO","NL",3,"D","",""
"19390420","0","Thu","PHI","NL",4,"BSN","NL",4,"D","",""
"19390420","0","Thu","CIN","NL",4,"CHN","NL",3,"D","Rain","19390809"
"19390420","0","Thu","CHA","AL",3,"DET","AL",3,"D","",""
"19390420","0","Thu","BOS","AL",3,"NYA","AL",4,"D","",""

[pherbener]

Thanks for the info David. For original schedules prior to 1917 I use The Sporting News archives.

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/

Here's an example of the 1911 National League Schedule.

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL5707009.PDF

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by pherbener

Thanks for the info David. For original schedules prior to 1917 I use The Sporting News archives.

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/

Here's an example of the 1911 National League Schedule.

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL5707009.PDF

How do you find the schedule each year has many PDF do you have to check each one ??

[pherbener]

Originally Posted by megalimey

How do you find the schedule each year has many PDF do you have to check each one ??

Most of the schedules were posted in the third week of April and the PDF file corresponds with the page number. There's a table of contents that helps sometimes. I'm used to using it so it's fairly quick for me. Here's a link to that 1916 Giants Schedule we were talking about showing game 37 was game 2 July 4th.

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL6708016.pdf