VCBC #7, 1996, PSA & ASA Card Grading Svc's - Smoke Detectors Without Batteries

[rickyb80]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Strait up bottom line is they continue to submit to PSA Because The Dealers and Auction Houses Believe PSA always brings them the most money for their vintage cards. Sure SGC is way more accurate and fair but that doesn’t matter it’s all about the most amount of money they can get.

PSA is Teflon Amazing Business Model Based on Opinions Pumped By Brilliance in Marketing Pop and Registry.....It’s Gold Jerry Gold.....

I agree with you. How can we solve this?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

I agree with you. How can we solve this?

The collecting masses still seem to be completely unaware of the multi-million dollar scam. One thought was to rent a booth at the National Collectors Convention (close to the proximity of PSA). A continuous loop video on a large screen could document the thousands of indisputable "before and after" examples of blatant alteration. Trimmed, recolored, bleached and butchered cards that now reside in numbered PSA holders.

The National is by far the best-attended show in the country, and might be the best place to reach/impact a large number of people who could potentially (and finally) see the light. Sure, the people who are deeply invested in PSA would shun the whole thing, but a number of others presumably "on the fence" could be swayed to spend their money elsewhere.

The media seems disinterested at this point in time. I'm sure that if the FBI was to be successful in making arrests and shutting these people down, then you'd see greater media coverage of the fraud/scandal. But if that never happens, it will continue to be business as usual with favored submitters, card doctors, and dealers of altered/preserved cards continuing to reign supreme (as they bilk the common collector).

The current system is all about money. PSA rakes it in on submissions (and countless re-submissions). Card Doctors routinely realize thousands of dollars for a few minutes of trim work. Shady dealers benefit by selling tainted cards for hundreds of times their actual worth. And auction houses rake in cash in the form of Buyers and Sellers commissions. It's a perfect system for all of them, while the common Joe gets screwed and pays exponentially more money for a card that should grade "A".

[Exhibitman]

Of course it is about money, Mark. Everything in America is about money, from cards to cancer treatment.

Purdy called out the silliness and potential for corruption in TPGs decades ago. I wrote articles for him exposing the fraud behind the SMR, which featured made-up prices for cards that did not exist but which listed them as actual sales anyway. No one cared then and no one cares now because of the money. The registry collectors who consume PSA slabs are too busy spending for slabs as a way of comparing dicks with other rich guys, so they don't want to know from trimming, bleaching and fraud. The PSA dealers know that it costs a fraction of the boost in value to have PSA slab a valuable card, so they hold their noses and carry on. I know that is true because as much as I loathe TPGs, I play that game too when it comes to selling. I sent in an order to PSA last fall which included a Bill Russell RC (the Celtics center, not the Dodgers SS). It is what we used to call a "beater" and I bought it priced accordingly. PSA released the grade yesterday and graded it fair. They 'upcharged' me $60 for the higher than expected grade and I paid it readily because that $60 made a $500 raw card into a $1100 card for the PSA audience. It is a license to print money for everyone involved and as long as there is a market for it, resistance is futile. TPGs are the Borg and they will assimilate you...

[buymycards]

As a side note, PSA has announced that their backlog is over one million cards.

I am not joking.

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Of course it is about money, Mark. Everything in America is about money, from cards to cancer treatment.

Purdy called out the silliness and potential for corruption in TPGs decades ago. I wrote articles for him exposing the fraud behind the SMR, which featured made-up prices for cards that did not exist but which listed them as actual sales anyway. No one cared then and no one cares now because of the money. The registry collectors who consume PSA slabs are too busy spending for slabs as a way of comparing dicks with other rich guys, so they don't want to know from trimming, bleaching and fraud. The PSA dealers know that it costs a fraction of the boost in value to have PSA slab a valuable card, so they hold their noses and carry on. I know that is true because as much as I loathe TPGs, I play that game too when it comes to selling. I sent in an order to PSA last fall which included a Bill Russell RC (the Celtics center, not the Dodgers SS). It is what we used to call a "beater" and I bought it priced accordingly. PSA released the grade yesterday and graded it fair. They 'upcharged' me $60 for the higher than expected grade and I paid it readily because that $60 made a $500 raw card into a $1100 card for the PSA audience. It is a license to print money for everyone involved and as long as there is a market for it, resistance is futile. TPGs are the Borg and they will assimilate you...

I never met Dennis Purdy personally but I did represent him and the magazine in defense of a libel suit in federal court in New Jersey. He was a straight-shooter and wasn’t afraid to express his strong opinions.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The collecting masses still seem to be completely unaware of the multi-million dollar scam. One thought was to rent a booth at the National Collectors Convention (close to the proximity of PSA). A continuous loop video on a large screen could document the thousands of indisputable "before and after" examples of blatant alteration. Trimmed, recolored, bleached and butchered cards that now reside in numbered PSA holders.

The National is by far the best-attended show in the country, and might be the best place to reach/impact a large number of people who could potentially (and finally) see the light. Sure, the people who are deeply invested in PSA would shun the whole thing, but a number of others presumably "on the fence" could be swayed to spend their money elsewhere.

The media seems disinterested at this point in time. I'm sure that if the FBI was to be successful in making arrests and shutting these people down, then you'd see greater media coverage of the fraud/scandal. But if that never happens, it will continue to be business as usual with favored submitters, card doctors, and dealers of altered/preserved cards continuing to reign supreme (as they bilk the common collector).

The current system is all about money. PSA rakes it in on submissions (and countless re-submissions). Card Doctors routinely realize thousands of dollars for a few minutes of trim work. Shady dealers benefit by selling tainted cards for hundreds of times their actual worth. And auction houses rake in cash in the form of Buyers and Sellers commissions. It's a perfect system for all of them, while the common Joe gets screwed and pays exponentially more money for a card that should grade "A".

1) It mentioned in the article that the FTC filed suit against PCGS for "not providing objective or consistent grading" - is that an angle anyone has explored with the current situation?
2) I think the table at the national idea is a great one - Perhaps interested parties could contribute $$ to pay for the table. Perhaps something we could even do in partnership with blowout? Would need volunteers to watch the table and possibly be available to speak to people live (If I go, which as of now I'm planning on, I would volunteer to spend a couple of hours there). we would need to get permission from the promoters as setting up this table would obviously run counter to the interests of at least 2 other table holders (PSA and PWCC). Anyone want to add their thoughts or volunteer to work on this?

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by hcv123

1) It mentioned in the article that the FTC filed suit against PCGS for "not providing objective or consistent grading" - is that an angle anyone has explored with the current situation?
2) I think the table at the national idea is a great one - Perhaps interested parties could contribute $$ to pay for the table. Perhaps something we could even do in partnership with blowout? Would need volunteers to watch the table and possibly be available to speak to people live (If I go, which as of now I'm planning on, I would volunteer to spend a couple of hours there). we would need to get permission from the promoters as setting up this table would obviously run counter to the interests of at least 2 other table holders (PSA and PWCC). Anyone want to add their thoughts or volunteer to work on this?

Hi Howard, first of all, the promoters of the National don't care. As long as they sell out their tables, they don't care that many of the tables are sold to crooks and scammers. They will never let this happen.

Second, PSA is receiving an average of 68,000 submissions per week. The majority of these submitters either don't know about the problems with PSA or they don't care, as long as they believe they will get higher prices with a PSA slab. Talking to a few hundred people at the National will be like throwing a rock in the ocean. You will have a couple of people at a time at your table, while across the aisle, PSA will have 100's of people lined up waiting to submit their cards.

Rick

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Hi Howard, first of all, the promoters of the National don't care. As long as they sell out their tables, they don't care that many of the tables are sold to crooks and scammers. They will never let this happen.

Second, PSA is receiving an average of 68,000 submissions per week. The majority of these submitters either don't know about the problems with PSA or they don't care, as long as they believe they will get higher prices with a PSA slab. Talking to a few hundred people at the National will be like throwing a rock in the ocean. You will have a couple of people at a time at your table, while across the aisle, PSA will have 100's of people lined up waiting to submit their cards.

Rick

I do not control outcomes - that doesn't leave me less responsible for taking actions aligned with my integrity.

Will the promoters let it happen - we won't know for sure till a phone call is made or email sent.

Will it make a difference? The more people that are aware of what is going on, I believe the better for the hobby overall - I think making a few hundred people aware (if that's all that would happen) would be a great success!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I do not control outcomes - that doesn't leave me less responsible for taking actions aligned with my integrity.

Will the promoters let it happen - we won't know for sure till a phone call is made or email sent.

Will it make a difference? The more people that are aware of what is going on, I believe the better for the hobby overall - I think making a few hundred people aware (if that's all that would happen) would be a great success!

I haven't been able to get a booth. Been trying for a couple years now. It's not even that they'll keep someone out because of their motives (exposing fraud) they just don't have room.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

I agree with you. How can we solve this?

The way this is stopped is to stop submitting, stop buying, and stop consigning.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

I agree with you. How can we solve this?

Well, based on those last few responses, I suppose there’s nothing we can do to solve it. Maybe law enforcement will do something. Clearly the bulk of the collecting community and resulting profiteers desire no changes whatsoever.

As so many correctly predicted, Brent and his tenets will prevail.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Well, based on those last few responses, I suppose there’s nothing we can do to solve it. Maybe law enforcement will do something. Clearly the bulk of the collecting community and resulting profiteers desire no changes whatsoever.

As so many correctly predicted, Brent and his tenets will prevail.

This what we are up against.....sadly everything is priced in.

Sometimes you just have to go your own way or accept it......it’s to stressful to allow it to bother me anymore..l

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

This what we are up against.....sadly everything is priced in.

Sometimes you just have to go your own way or accept it......it’s to stressful to allow it to bother me anymore..l

Yeah, you're right. At least I have memorabilia to fall back on. Stuff that they can't or won't ever slab, thank God.

I'm kind of done with cards after all this. The money definitely outweighs the ethics in this hobby.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

I agree with you. How can we solve this?

A lot of folks have been putting in quite a bit of work online. Now when I say online, I mean that folks have been researching old sales, comparing scans, sending out emails, posting on forums, etc. However, outside of the digital world, nothing really has been done. This would involve approaching card trimmers at shows, setting up tables, handing out flyers, arranging meetings, etc. This is something that would require a great deal of work and none of the folks who scream at their computer screens are willing to do this. So with that being said, the only option that remains is for everyone to just wait and see what the FBI is going to do.