Ruth vs Wagner

[EvilKing00]

I know this news is almost a year old, but I hadn't seen it on here and not sure this was posted before, but I just came across this now. So I figured id post it.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...-card-slugfest

IMO, I always couldn't understand why the wagner was a higher selling card. Ruth was a better player and its more rare. I guess maybe that's exactly why. Because the ruth rarely comes up for sale. I don't know. But if I had the means and choice id pick the ruth over the wagner any day.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

IMO, I always couldn't understand why the wagner was a higher selling card

The Wagner has had a mystique for 100 years and is part of arguably the most iconic set of all-time. If T206 isn't the most iconic set of all-time, it is certainly no worse than second or third. The Wagner card also has the much debated story of why it exists in such few numbers compared to the 520 easily accessible cards in the set, and even Jefferson Burdick recognized that the Wagner T206 was the most the special card in an iconic set.

Conversely, the Baltimore News Ruth card, while Babe's first card, is from an obscure set that has only picked up steam in relatively recent times. How many threads do you see on here discussing the T-206 set? How many threads do you see on here discussing the Baltimore News set?

Given a choice, I would rather have a Wagner T206 because there is a certain panache with that card. Books have been written on that card; television programs have been made dealing solely with a Wagner T206. You don't have any of that with the Baltimore News Ruth card. Even people who know absolutely nothing about card collecting have some familiarity with a Honus Wagner T206 card.

[e107collector]

Based on the Banner advertisement for Goldin Auctions, it looks like they are having a PSA1 BN Ruth coming up for auction, for the Centennial Ruth event.

It will be interesting to see what it sells for.

Tony

[MattyC]

Let me begin by saying that both ladies are beautiful, and I'd be proud to own either. That said, Ruth is the greatest player ever and it's his first appearance, a rarity, and I would choose the Ruth.

I very respectfully disagree with the notion of wanting a Wagner because books or movies have been made about it-- that is just a function of current knowledge and popularity. And that is all subject to change, over time. I mean, heck, remember the geocentric theory of the solar system? Or leeches in medicine? The list goes on.

Precedent and tradition are legitimate factors, to be sure, but who's to say that, in years from now, the Balt News Ruth won't be held in higher regard? By some it already is.

Heck, look at how the hobby finally embraced the Ruth RC, the undisputed MLB RC of the game's greatest player. Sometimes we humans just need a bit of time to acquire the proper knowledge, perspective, and get it right

And once again, this is not to knock the T206 Wagner. Amazing card. Would love to own one. Appreciate it on many levels. But this is baseball and all roads lead to Babe Ruth.

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Let me begin by saying that both ladies are beautiful, and I'd be proud to own either. That said, Ruth is the greatest player ever and it's his first appearance, a rarity, and I would choose the Ruth.

I very respectfully disagree with the notion of wanting a Wagner because books or movies have been made about it-- that is just a function of current knowledge and popularity. And that is all subject to change, over time. I mean, heck, remember the geocentric theory of the solar system? Or leeches in medicine? The list goes on.

Precedent and tradition are legitimate factors, to be sure, but who's to say that, in years from now, the Balt News Ruth won't be held in higher regard? By some it already is.

Heck, look at how the hobby finally embraced the Ruth RC, the undisputed MLB RC of the game's greatest player. Sometimes we humans just need a bit of time to acquire the proper knowledge, perspective, and get it right

And once again, this is not to knock the T206 Wagner. Amazing card. Would love to own one. Appreciate it on many levels. But this is baseball and all roads lead to Babe Ruth.

Couldn't of said it better, totally agree.

Sometimes we humans just need a bit of time to acquire the proper knowledge, perspective, and get it right .

lmao - I was never a big fan of humans, lol I tell my wife that all the time

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

I think the Ruth card is cooler because it comes from such an obscure set.


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[mrvster]

hands down Wagner(altho Ruth is bad ass).....

wagner= the grail

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by mrvster

wagner= the grail

x 2

[E93]

Of course I would love to own a BN Ruth, but to my mind there is not even a question about what is the premier card in the hobby - the T206 Wagner is the iconic card in the hobby.
JimB

[Brian Van Horn]

Wagner.

[Orioles1954]

The T206 set makes me go to sleep....will go with Ruth every single time.

[Bicem]

Both.

Actually give me a Wagner, a red Ruth and a blue Ruth. Thanks!

[MattyC]

This is more of a psychology question, I know, but I can't help wondering how many who choose the Wagner do so simply because they believe it is the more desired "icon" or "Grail" now-- and if the prevailing hobby sentiment anointed the BN Ruth as the new grail at some future point, they'd switch their answer.

By the time it's all said and done, I believe and would bet that the Ruth will overtake the Wagner. The first salvo was already fired in that latest auction. There is no denying the Ruth is rarer, and features the better player. In time these two fundamental principles of the hobby, namely rarity and player popularity, will win out.

It may take time, but these two factors will win out in the end. Traditional view (as in the Wagner's status) is one thing, but the underpinning factors of the hobby's market have begun to work in The Ruth's favor, and will continue to do so into the future. Ruth's sustained heat across so many cards in so many auctions is proof of his enduring popularity, as compared to Wagner. And I say this as someone who thinks Wagner, especially a Wagner portrait, is a cornerstone of any baseball card collection.

[oldjudge]

Cards from sets people are working on always trade at a premium. The Ruth is a rarer card of a better player. That means little since to finish the T206 set you need a Wagner. No one is working on the Baltimore News set. Also, the Baltimore News Ruth is a minor league card, and certainly not Ruth's scarcest card. In all honesty, I'm not sure why it sells for as much as it does.

[MattyC]

Set collectors help drive price and demand, sure, but there are many non-set collectors out there as well. Far more than there are either Wagners or Ruths out there. So the set collector dimension seems moot to me. One doesn't need to be building a Balt News set to want the first card of The Babe, just as one doesn't need to be building a T206 set to want a Wagner or other HOFer. I guess in absence of a crystal ball, only time will tell. And in the end, it will always be each individual collector's call based on his collection.

[drumback]

To me, the BN Ruth isn't really a card. It's a schedule. And it's kind of ugly as well. In any color. Looks like it could have been printed in the seventies. I would choose Wagner. Not even close.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by drumback

And it's kind of ugly as well. In any color. Looks like it could have been printed in the seventies. I would choose Wagner. Not even close.

I agree. My immediate thought upon reading the OP was for the Ruth, but there's no comparison when looking at the two. Love T206 or not, the Wagner is a great looking card, and in my opinion a far better looking one than the Ruth.

That said, I'd be more thn happy with either.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

I agree. My immediate thought upon reading the OP was for the Ruth, but there's no comparison when looking at the two. Love T206 or not, the Wagner is a great looking card, and in my opinion a far better looking one than the Ruth.



That said, I'd be more thn happy with either.

I actually think the Wagner is kind of ugly. He has an absolutely expressionless face.


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[dabigyankeeman]

Of course its the hype of the Wagner card that has made it more desireable (not to me though, I would rather have The Babe).

Its kinda like the hype on the 1952 Topps "rookie" card of Mickey Mantle, when his true rookie card is the 1951 Bowman. Most people would rather have the 1952 and they would say they have his rookie card. I have and love both, but the 1951 is the true rookie as we all know.

[ullmandds]

Personally...I'll take the T206 Wags...not because others will be impressed by it...but because it has always been the "prize" of the hobby since I was a little kid...the ruth is a "prookie"...and I'll just buy my own m101 ruth rookie after the Wags is "given" to me!!!!

[Leon]

I would take the Baltimore News Ruth every day and all day on Sunday over the Wags. The Wags is a great card, and the best known, but to this collector it is common and not such a great card. Heck, I personally like many other T206s better. The Ruth card is iconic, a much, much better looking card to me and will always be one of the absolute best cards in the hobby. For me it's not close. However, if I collected T206 then I am sure I would feel that way about the Wagner. Over time the BN Ruth will continue to escalate and come closer in value to a Wags.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by drumback

To me, the BN Ruth isn't really a card. It's a schedule. And it's kind of ugly as well. In any color. Looks like it could have been printed in the seventies. I would choose Wagner. Not even close.

Well said, indeed it is a schedule, but still Ruth's inaugural appearance on "some" cardboard issue. While I am as big as Ruth fan as anyone in the hobby and collect his cardboard rarities, in this instance I choose the Wagner. True, stances change over the course of time, but I highly doubt the Wagner will EVER be pushed aside as our hobby's Holy Grail. The original pricing escalation within the hobby was spearheaded by two cards; the T206 Wagner and 1952 Topps Mantle with the T206 Wagner the ultimate benchmark. True, the Ruth 1914 BN is scarcer, but sometimes excessive rarity can limit a card's emergence to the general public. Keep in mind it is "the public" that will ultimately dictate a card's desirability/value, and there are enough Wagner's available (with a scarcity factor still attached) to continue generating the necessary "hype" required for a "Holy Grail" baseball card.

Joe T.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Cards from sets people are working on always trade at a premium. The Ruth is a rarer card of a better player. That means little since to finish the T206 set you need a Wagner. No one is working on the Baltimore News set. Also, the Baltimore News Ruth is a minor league card, and certainly not Ruth's scarcest card. In all honesty, I'm not sure why it sells for as much as it does.

That's true in one regard. For people who get hyped up over the T206 set the Wagner card is the one to get. However, it is not even Wagner's toughest "T" card.

[GaryPassamonte]

I'm with Jay on this one. The BN Ruth is a minor league card, at best. Best player, earliest issue, minor league card. Is there any other minor league card that is considered the "rookie" card of the player pictured? Maybe the Old Mill Jackson?

[MattyC]

For me at least, a minor league card doesn't mean it can't be desirable. Joe D is not in an MLB uniform on his Zeenuts, but I'll take the Zeenut Batting OR throwing DiMaggio all day over his cartoon Goudey.

I don't think it's the "public" that will decide the card's value and desirability if what is meant there is the general public. It is the bids from wealthy bidders which are at the root; record high sales from wealthy bidders will cause a card to break out and in turn become known and noticed by the greater public-- and I have to think the wealthy bidders in years and generations to come will prefer the first and rarer card of the better player.

Fun to ponder but perhaps this is worse than debating what's better, one Ivy League college or another, Ferrari vs Lambo, or one supermodel vs another. This is whatcha gotta call one high class problem!

[benjulmag]

They are both great cards and reading the various responses makes me think about what's so great about collecting -- it is so subjective. Each collector is free to enjoy it in his/her own personal way.

An interesting offshoot question which I think about is whether part of the Wagner's popularity is predicated on it being the only Wagner pose in the set. As has been noted, the T206 is one of the most iconic sets in the hobby and IMO the most iconic set of the dead ball era. Wagner was as prominent a player as any in the game at the time the set was issued, and I always felt that there being only one pose of him (and a portrait pose at that with an attractive orange background) is part of the perfect storm of events that fuels the card's popularity.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

They are both great cards and reading the various responses makes me think about what's so great about collecting -- it is so subjective. Each collector is free to enjoy it in his/her own personal way.

An interesting offshoot question which I think about is whether part of the Wagner's popularity is predicated on it being the only Wagner pose in the set. As has been noted, the T206 is one of the most iconic sets in the hobby and IMO the most iconic set of the dead ball era. Wagner was as prominent a player as any in the game at the time the set was issued, and I always felt that there being only one pose of him (and a portrait pose at that with an attractive orange background) is part of the perfect storm of events that fuels the card's popularity.

I agree Corey. What makes card collecting as great as it is, is the potential diversity in ways of doing it. Most collectors, of prewar, collect sets it seems. I go against the grain but that doesn't make me right or wrong, just different. Actually the Wags is a good looking card, but to me, it's not in the same league as the Ruth card (and maybe I am the only one that feels this way, and that is ok too)...

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by MattyC

For me at least, a minor league card doesn't mean it can't be desirable. Joe D is not in an MLB uniform on his Zeenuts, but I'll take the Zeenut Batting OR throwing DiMaggio all day over his cartoon Goudey.

I don't think it's the "public" that will decide the card's value and desirability if what is meant there is the general public. It is the bids from wealthy bidders which are at the root; record high sales from wealthy bidders will cause a card to break out and in turn become known and noticed by the greater public-- and I have to think the wealthy bidders in years and generations to come will prefer the first and rarer card of the better player.

Fun to ponder but perhaps this is worse than debating what's better, one Ivy League college or another, Ferrari vs Lambo, or one supermodel vs another. This is whatcha gotta call one high class problem!

Problem is Matt, with only 10 to choose from (with more than half tightly secured by their current owners), the 3 to 4 "possibly available BN Ruth's simply won't generate enough opportunities to arouse an interest level required to surpass the T206 Wagner legacy. Demand might be there, but supply extremely limited to a handful of subjects.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

That's true in one regard. For people who get hyped up over the T206 set the Wagner card is the one to get. However, it is not even Wagner's toughest "T" card.

So true.. I've got an E that's far tougher than the T206.

To earlier comment about Wags' expressionless face, to each his own. I think I'm the same boat as those who grew up with it, and '52 Mantle as THE hobby icons and they still carry an amazing appeal as a result. I view both as beautiful cards. I have definitely branched out collecting wise in recent years, but can't ever separate myself from those original childhood dreams/urges. As an alternate to the T206, I've picked up 2 other Wags that share this pose.

[glynparson]

I thought I was the only one that considered it more a schedule than a card. I'd take the Wagner over the Ruth but I am a Pirates fan.

[steve B]

If I'm not paying for it I'll take a nice Wagner.

Because then I can sell it and get a whole lot of other cards I want.

Saw one in person at an auction in CT, looked at it for a minute or two and realized I wasn't all that impressed. It was pretty much just another T206, and a creased one with writing on the back at that.

Steve B

[aaroncc]

I'm not really into T206. But prefer the Wagner. If the Ruth was a real photo cabinet I would feel differently. Looks like a red or blue ink blot.

[CW]

Why do we, or why does the hobby need a single "top card" or Holy Grail? Nothing wrong with having 2 or even 3 cards known as the hobby's best, with no clear-cut, consensus favorite. I think the Wagner and the BN Ruth are just that -- evenly matched and both worthy of the title "Hobby's Best/Most Valuable Card".