Satchell Paige, Bill Veeck rookie cards?--Genuine?--See update/thread #10.

[dougscats]

As a hall of fame collector, I recently picked up these three, all tough to get.
They were advertised as "1948 Team Issued Photo Pack," and indeed they are photos. I inquired where they came from, and the seller told me:

"I bought these several years ago from a private collector, along with other Indians cards-he said his father got them after the 1948 season and kept them in a large envelope that had only been opened about 2 or 3 times-it is why they are in such pristine condition."

Now, I'm very happy with them as I had no Bill Veecks and only one Satchell Paige, and I got them for a song. But I'm curious as to how such "team issues" are regarded, generally speaking, within the hobby. And specifically, would this be considered a Satchell Paige rookie card? Ditto, Bill Veeck?
Are they even officially regarded as cards?

Thanks for your expertise.

Doug

[Matt]

I think what you'll find is that rookie card collectors make their own choices about how to define a rookie card - you'll find collectors all over the map on any number of questions (what constitutes a card, does a minor league issue count, etc.). You need to decide what is a satisfying definition for your collection.

Perhaps Phil, Dan and some of our other rookie card collectors can share their definitions and that may help your decision.

[tedzan]

The Standard Catalog identifies them as the "1948 Cleveland Indians Picture Pack".....33 photos.

I have collected the various team issues (Boston Red Sox, Brooklyn Dodgers, Cleveland Indians, New York Giants,
and New York Yankees) from 1947 to 1951.
They are tough to find, especially in nice condition, but are great collectibles representing a great era in BB. And,
many of these photos were the source pictures for the early Bowman cards.






TED Z

[DanP]

Originally Posted by dougscats

. And specifically, would this be considered a Satchell Paige rookie card? Ditto, Bill Veeck?
Are they even officially regarded as cards?

Thanks for your expertise.

Doug

Doug, I don't know any collectors who would consider those cards. However, if you change your definition to "rookie collectibles" you're all set! I believe Beckett will encapsulate them, if that means anything to you. Personally I don't consider these types of photo's cards. I have a few borderline rookie photo/cards that I really like, but don't consider them RC's.

[novakjr]

What I generally go by with the odd issues in my rookie card/collectibles collection, is that if they fall in the same year or earlier than what is typically considered the player's rookie card, I will credit it as a rookie(or pre-rookie) in my HOF Rookie collection. Notice, I'm not using the term earliest issue as rookie card. For me a rookie must meet certain criteria. 1)Nationally released item. 2)Major League item. 3)pack available(no team sets). 4)no other players featured on the card(no team cards).. Obviously my criteria is alot different for pr-war issues, at that point I generally go by first individual issue.. When it comes to executives and the such, I general go by first release, regardless of regional/national/team. I believe the '48 is Veeck's first release, I myself have the '49 wide pen photopack that used the same photos, plus 3 unreleased proofs/test photos including Wynn(I'm really not 100% sure what these 3 are though). These are just personal preferences though when it comes to rookies.

[DanP]

Originally Posted by novakjr

). These are just personal preferences though when it comes to rookies.

That's what I love about collecting RC's; the research, definition, variety, etc. It's much more rewarding (to me at least) than just checking cards off of a list. As has been said before on this forum: to each their own!!

[Rob D.]

Speaking only of the Indians issues, because those are the ones I collect, I can say that it's not hard at all to find them in very nice condition. Complete sets were issued in envelopes and often are found still in them in almost untouched condition. When I was putting together my collection and found off-condition examples, I always passed because I knew near-pristine ones were readily available. Can't speak to how other team issues were packaged.

Complete sets of Indians issues aren't tough to find and usually can be picked up in their original envelopes for $50-$75.

I've never considered these to be cards.

[GoldenAge50s]

Complete sets were issued in envelopes and often are found still in them in almost untouched condition.

Rob---

Would you say 95% of them are that way?

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by GoldenAge50s

Complete sets were issued in envelopes and often are found still in them in almost untouched condition.

Rob---

Would you say 95% of them are that way?

I'd personally say no. Especially with the Indians issues. I've only seen a handful of sets, while a simple ebay search(completed listings as well) will show a good amount of single Satchels. I believe alot more of these were broken up for individual sale, as they contain rookies(depending on your views) of Satchel, Lemon, Doby along with a bunch of other stars. Individually these sets are worth a lot more broken up, especially considering that most Satchels are way overpriced, often times sold(or attempted to sell) at what the whole set can be had for.

[dougscats]

Thanks for all your input.

I checked out the Standard Catalog, Ted, and the ones I have are less than half the size of the specifications in the book [Mine measure 2 1/2" x 3 1/2" rather than the 6 1/2" x 9" specified in the Catalog].

Now the seller listed them as a "Photo Pack" as opposed to the Catalog's "Picture Pack." To tell you the truth, I was surprised when I got these--they're real cards, cardboard--I'd been expecting the bigger, paper photographs.

So, now I'm left with the question as to whether these are genuine 1948, or whether, more probably, they were reprinted. I'm suspecting they are reprints, as they measure exactly the same as the cookie-cutter dimensions of almost all cards since 1957, and I don't think that those exact dimensions were ever used before 1957.

Would a black-light help me here?

Thanks again.

Doug

[novakjr]

Oh, the smaller ones. Did you buy them from a seller in Painesville, Oh on ebay? If so, that's one of the local card/game dealers. I told him a while ago that they were a reprint set. I think his might've been bigger than the dimensions you specified, I'm not sure though. I believe these were an anniversary giveaway at an Indians game.

[Matt]

the smaller card sized issues were sold at Indians games in Municipal Stadium for many years starting in the 1980s.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by Matt

the smaller card sized issues were sold at Indians games in Municipal Stadium for many years starting in the 1980s.

I knew it was something along those lines. My buddy got ripped on what he thought was a 1957 Sohio set this way. For some reason he thought they were just a smaller version of the set from '57.

[tedzan]

As a kid in the late 1940's, I acquired my picture packs at Yankee Stadium. The Dodgers and Giants picture packs were given to me by neighbors (who got
them at Ebbets Field or the Polo Grounds).

I can't speak for the Indians picture pack, as I acquired mine back in 1989. So, to answer your question....I do not recall seeing any cardboard versions like
yours. Perhaps, Frank Ward will chime in here, he is quite knowledgeable on such stuff.

Here are some more of my pictures with associated BB cards.

These pictures were the first BB player images in the post-WWII era....and, served as source pictures for the 1947 Bond Bread cards, 1948 Blue Tint cards,
and, 1949 & 1950 Bowman cards.











TED Z

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by dougscats

Thanks for all your input.

I checked out the Standard Catalog, Ted, and the ones I have are less than half the size of the specifications in the book [Mine measure 2 1/2" x 3 1/2" rather than the 6 1/2" x 9" specified in the Catalog].

Now the seller listed them as a "Photo Pack" as opposed to the Catalog's "Picture Pack." To tell you the truth, I was surprised when I got these--they're real cards, cardboard--I'd been expecting the bigger, paper photographs.

So, now I'm left with the question as to whether these are genuine 1948, or whether, more probably, they were reprinted. I'm suspecting they are reprints, as they measure exactly the same as the cookie-cutter dimensions of almost all cards since 1957, and I don't think that those exact dimensions were ever used before 1957.

Would a black-light help me here?

Thanks again.

Doug

During the great run the Indians had in the 1990s, the 1948 set was reprinted and reissued in the form you describe. Also, full-size sets were reissued, but the stock was much whiter than the originals.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

During the great run the Indians had in the 1990s, the 1948 set was reprinted and reissued in the form you describe. Also, full-size sets were reissued, but the stock was much whiter than the originals.

It wasn't exactly full size. They were a little smaller(maybe by a half inch or so) and were more of a grainy photo-copy like printing on a pure white stock. I believe there were also some straight bleed lines from the corners of the photos that extended into the borders.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by novakjr

It wasn't exactly full size. They were a little smaller(maybe by a half inch or so) and were more of a grainy photo-copy like printing on a pure white stock. I believe there were also some straight bleed lines from the corners of the photos that extended into the borders.

OK. Full size, as in not the size of baseball cards like the previously mentioned ones.

Thanks.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

OK. Full size, as in not the size of baseball cards like the previously mentioned ones.

Thanks.

I knew what you were meaning, but wanted to be a little more specific for anyone that's not as familiar with the issue.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by novakjr

I knew what you were meaning, but wanted to be a little more specific for anyone that's not as familiar with the issue.

Absolutely. I should originally have been more specific.

[dougscats]

Ted,
This seller sells out of South Euclid, OH.
Here's the transaction on ebay if you're curious:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEWNX%3AIT

The three cards cost me about $16, delivered.
I think I'll return them, though it's hardly worth it.

Thanks for all the help, all.

Doug