Anonymity vs Privacy on the Net54baseball

[Leon]

Anonymity vs Privacy on the Net54baseball


I feel it's time for a healthy debate on this subject and hopefully we can find the best rule for the board, and the moderating of the rule. I will only say that the end result is members will have to stand behind what they say on the board. The "Privacy" on the Board is being debated.
Here is the rule today, (with a typo or two corrected):

"Anonymous, where this board is concerned, implies that you are not known to the moderator or anyone else. That is not permitted on Net54baseball. However, you may remain private on the board; otherwise, as long as your post is not argumentative, controversial, confrontational, accusatorial etc.…For example you can discuss attributes of cards, sets or memorabilia and stay private. You can not say someone is an imbecile, hard to deal with, gave poor service etc…and remain private on the board. In addition to that if your opinion is that you dislike someone, hate them, can’t stand or don’t like anything about them, and you want to tell the world about it on Net54baseball, then your full name will need to be in your post. The moderator may put the posters name on the board or delete their posts, at his sole discretion, when this rule is not adhered to. Heated debates will require first and last names to be known, and made public, on the board. Contact information will be given out for legal reasons or under extraordinary circumstances at the discretion of the moderator."



ps...the reason I am bringing this up again is the current way it's being done isn't working for me ...way too much oversight needed.

[Ease]

Imo everyone should have their first and last name under their login name or in their sig. Period. That ends all the oversight.

[Jacklitsch]

Originally Posted by Ease

Imo everyone should have their first and last name under their login name or in their sig. Period. That ends all the oversight.

Changed my mind. If you don't know me by now I don't want you to.

[Leon]

Thanks for your thought Eric....That would be my first choice but I know it's not good for a lot of people and for good reason.

****In this thread you can remain private and argue with me. Since we are debating it I want everyone to have a chance to say something. Please don't take that as carte blanch..... If you get out of hand, and unprofessional I will revoke this consideration and make your name known. Just be cool and you can argue . All in the spirit of debate.

[dstudeba]

My home was broken into last year and cards were stolen. That is one of the reasons I will not put my first and last name in my posts. If that is a requisite of posting I won't post. No big deal as my life will go on and the board will go on.

[drc]

My opinion is, if the moderator has information, and the poster isn't causing trouble, I have no issue with someone not posting his name. No harm, no foul, as they say. I understand and appreciate why people don't want to post their name on a public chatboard.

[teetwoohsix]

I understand both sides of this.....when I first joined, I had my full name up for months-no harm done. Then, I just decided I wanted to be "a little" more anonymous, so just used my last initial for my last name.

Anyone I've bought cards from can vouch for the fact I give all my info to them- home adress, full name, and even add my phone # in there too.

If anyone for any reason would like my last name, you can P.M. me and I will give it to you. Then, at least, I know who it is that is wanting to know my last name

I like the option to be anonymous........because anyone on the web can see your full name, board member or not- that is my main issue with it.

Sincerely, Clayton

[asphaltman]

I don't like being required to have first and last name on every post. Heck if we have to have that then why do we have a members page with emails, ebay handles, websites, etc?

To me...if you've been here for years and are known...then you're known by the general masses...and that should be good enough.


If anything, I wish the member page would be updated...as so many new people here are posting that aren't on it, as well as quite a few on it that don't even come here anymore.

[Rich Klein]

But in our society, one of the great strengths has always been that you have a right to know who your accusers are and have them known to you.

If I say something about a Doug Allen for example, at least I put my name out there -- as does Jeffrey Lichtman who is actually closer to a public figure than I'll ever be,

Doug then has the right to know who it was that said something about him, and I don't have any problems with that.

If you are going to post on a subject that is controversial, then anyone does have the right to know who you are.

If you wish only to post on subjects such as,, observations on 1967 Topps hi #'s, then go ahead and don't worry about if anyone knows who you are.

I think this gives everyone a chance to face their adverseries and I'm sorry but I'm all in favor of giving names. Having the right to know who it is saying something --- is a basic American right.

Regards
Rich

[drc]

I agree with you Rich. There's a difference between threat/auction fraud/theft threads and threads about T206s backs/figural trophies. The latter probably make up 98 percent of the threads. If someone wishes to stay anonymous, stay out of the other former 2 percent. I try my best to.

As far as I've seen, someone's identity is only an issue when the person does stuff like make threats or accusations of stealing. If these inflamatory subjects never came up, I doubt this issue would have ever come up.

[Kawika]

If it weren't for the all-trumping point made by Dstudeba, whoever the hell that is , I would be 100% in favor of forbidding anonymnity on the board. Too many jokers coming over the walls.

David McDonald
(not my real name)

[3-2-count]

Originally Posted by Ease

Imo everyone should have their first and last name under their login name or in their sig. Period. That ends all the oversight.

Agreed. My vote is with Eric & Steve.

[T206Collector]

Uh... If I was naive enough to use my real name on here, well then OF COURSE I would want everyone else to do the same.

Duh.

If you start listening to the folks that like to use their real names, you won't get anything near a useful debate on the subject.

Putting privacy aside, which is a major consideration, the best reason to not use a real name is that it doesn't freaking matter what name anyone uses on an Internet forum. As long as people stay consistent with their usage then there shouldn't be any confusion. At the same time, if someone is being an arsehole, then ban them quickly.

Finally, while many of the regular posters like to use their names for some reason, to the extent your bag is social networking, then please keep in mind that many of us, myself included, are not interested in meeting folks on here in real life. Barry Sloate could call himself Jonny Bloat, for all i care -- he's still the same Internet person to me.

If you want to get to know each other in real life, sign up for Match.com. Otherwise, keep sharing images of your awesome cards, ask questions about your cards, answer questions about my cards, buy/sell/trade your cards. Everything else is none of my business and i don't care to know who you are, or for you to know who i am...

[Matt]

Originally Posted by asphaltman

If anything, I wish the member page would be updated...as so many new people here are posting that aren't on it, as well as quite a few on it that don't even come here anymore.

Dave - the 'Community' link at the top has a full current membership listing. Of course, it is dependent on the member supplying their contact info.

[asphaltman]

Originally Posted by Matt

Dave - the 'Community' link at the top has a full current membership listing. Of course, it is dependent on the member supplying their contact info.

I was talking more about this page Matt...which I guess was just plain replaced by the other one you pointed out.


http://www.net54baseball.com/forum/c...tagelinks.html

[Rickyy]

I see both sides to the argument as well..but posts that veer into nasty comments and personal attacks and those posts that appear suddenly with controversial statements need to be dealt with a swift hand. Your rules are your rules and this is your site...I'm fine with banning, deleting or editing posts as deemed justifiable based on the mods discretion and rules that are clearly set forth...if you don't like that...leave or start your own site with your own rules...my two yen.

[T206Collector]

What if using your real name was banned -- wouldn't there be fewer personal attacks? Also, if you were personally attacked, wouldn't you take it less seriously if the attacker didn't even know your name?

[teetwoohsix]

One of the turning points for me to exclude my last name was one time I googled my name and one of the first things that came up was a thread I started (or replied to, can't remember) here on Net54.

I also agree if you are going to disrespect people, accuse people, etc. then you should expect your full name to be exposed.

Clayton

[T206Collector]

One of my old high school friends found me on Net54 - and that was even WITHOUT me using my real name. Just enough people calling me Paul on here was actually enough.

[drc]

You can put your name in a way that it prevents your real name showing up on google but everyone knows who you are. Bob Jones can be put there as B@bJones or BobJ.ones, for examples. It's not just for style point that I post my name as one word above. Though it is quite stylish, just like me.

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Uh... If I was naive enough to use my real name on here, well then OF COURSE I would want everyone else to do the same.

Duh.

If you start listening to the folks that like to use their real names, you won't get anything near a useful debate on the subject.

Putting privacy aside, which is a major consideration, the best reason to not use a real name is that it doesn't freaking matter what name anyone uses on an Internet forum. As long as people stay consistent with their usage then there shouldn't be any confusion. At the same time, if someone is being an arsehole, then ban them quickly.

Finally, while many of the regular posters like to use their names for some reason, to the extent your bag is social networking, then please keep in mind that many of us, myself included, are not interested in meeting folks on here in real life. Barry Sloate could call himself Jonny Bloat, for all i care -- he's still the same Internet person to me.

If you want to get to know each other in real life, sign up for Match.com. Otherwise, keep sharing images of your awesome cards, ask questions about your cards, answer questions about my cards, buy/sell/trade your cards. Everything else is none of my business and i don't care to know who you are, or for you to know who i am...

It isn't just an "internet forum" to some of us, more like a clubhouse where we can meet up with real flesh-and-blood friends, people we have spoken with, shaken hands with, welcomed to our homes. If you want to isolate yourself from all that it's your choice, but don't characterize us as needy nerds hanging at the Net54 Lonely Hearts Club. You're way off the mark.

Just for you, Tee.

[teetwoohsix]

LOL Thanks David, I needed a laugh

Clayton

[Ease]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

At the same time, if someone is being an arsehole, then ban them quickly.

Who determines who is being an @sshole? You? Me? Leon? Dan? Is Leon or Dan an @sshole for banning someone he thought was an @sshole? Should we ban Leon or Dan for being an @sshole to an @sshole?

See the problem with that?

[E93]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Best,
The collector formerly known as JimB

[tbob]

[QUOTE=Kawika;883768]It isn't just an "internet forum" to some of us, more like a clubhouse where we can meet up with real flesh-and-blood friends, people we have spoken with, shaken hands with, welcomed to our homes. If you want to isolate yourself from all that it's your choice, but don't characterize us as needy nerds hanging at the Net54 Lonely Hearts Club. You're way off the mark.

Well said David.

[deadballera]

in my opinion...

All heated debates should have first and last name.

Just general card questions or "show me" threads are pretty basic...no name needed.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by E93

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Best,
The collector formerly known as JimB

Hi Jim
Please see the "ps." in my original post. It is broken as I am having to get into the middle of too many debates and make decisions I don't want to have to make (so frequently). I realize it's not that bad for everyone else, but can you imagine getting PM's, emails and board posts asking you to intervene, multiple times every day. That is the way it is for me now.

I have many board friends who want to give their opinions on debates that are "gray area" things, with only having their USER ID's in their posts. Then someone else, maybe new to the board, fires a "Hey, you need to have your name in that post"...then the board friend gets offended if I say something to them, or blows me off, and whatever I do is going to upset one of them. This is happening multiple times daily. I have to rectify that somehow. regards

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by asphaltman

I don't like being required to have first and last name on every post. Heck if we have to have that then why do we have a members page with emails, ebay handles, websites, etc?

To me...if you've been here for years and are known...then you're known by the general masses...and that should be good enough.


If anything, I wish the member page would be updated...as so many new people here are posting that aren't on it, as well as quite a few on it that don't even come here anymore.

Agree with Dave, most everyone knows everybody. I see no real need....I think it could create more potential issues vs. correct or avoid potential issues.

Just my two cents.

John

Actually Leon you of all people should understand the no real need for last names. All it takes is someone with a silly axe to grind and a website to make your full name synonymous with whatever tripe they would like to spread. And for what or over what a disagreement of opinion or point of view on a baseball card board. You have our numbers and details if someone pulls something really illegal I think you can hand that over to the right people...

[Jaybird]

Member page makes sense. If the names are there, then anyone can check and find out the name (if you're a member, I assume). Then we don't have to police the internal threads.

I think it is the rare few that are stirring things up just to stir them up. If the member page has everyone's name and we are able to PM and email each other directly, that should provide the necessary accountability.

I can see how it would be a drag for a moderator to enforce the rule everyday when these discussions and disagreements are part of normal discourse.

Question is: how hard is it to update the member list?

[T206Collector]

If you want to treat it like a clubhouse, that's your prerogative -- just keep in mind that this forum is as open to the public as a fishbowl.

It is not at all surprising that the clubhouse members want to know who they're conversing with by full name. You've all exposed yourselves as real humans, with real emotions and feelings. I'm just a Matty Dark Cap Avatar and a real passion for T206 cards. If the price for doing that here is joining your clubhouse, well then I guess I'll just move on.

[alanu]

I would prefer to remain at least semi-private for security/privacy reasons and would especially not want to be on a "member list" of collectors, but then again I'm a little paranoid and don't even use my real name on facebook.

[sportscardpete]

Honestly, I really don't like having my name put out in public. If there was a way that only the people on the board could see my name (and not through public searches, ex Google) than I would have no issue putting my name in. Which is why I feel everyone should have their name in their public profile but not on individual posts. I think that is fair for everyone, and is probably something the general universe can agree on.

Also, Leon you are doing an awesome job. It must be hard keeping everyone happy and no decision is easy.


Thank you,

P*ter I****ce**i =)

[Rich Klein]

I think the real issue comes down to in what threads you make posts.

Making posts in threads about -- Net 54 Contest as to what an EBay item will sell for --- is fine -- I don't care if you post your name in that one. We had a nice thread on the post-war boards about 67 Topps Hi#'s -- on that one -- no names needed.

Making posts in threads such as the one we had a way way back about JP Cohen's background or something that looks askew in a Memory Lane auction (That was the 1st thought that came into mind -- no inference meant) -- then if JP, Daniel (Who I have known since the 1980's), etc want to know who made that post, they do have the right to do so. The cosignor of some of the cards in question later posted to his credit.

Regards
Rich

[Leon]

Well, it looks like everyone can sort of understand the situation. I am not sure there is a perfect solution. Here is an idea that might upset fewer folks than what is happening now...

How about when you get into a heated debate, or any kind of discussion with a board member, and they want to know who you are, then they can email me and I can tell them your name?? It isn't perfect but I doubt I would get more than a request or two every several days, maybe less...as most people do know each other. Once I tell someone I won't have to tell them again (for that member). I want this to be as open of a forum as possible while forcing people to take responsibility for what they say. (if it gets to that point in a discussion). I understand there will be some objections but at least it's a start. .thoughts?

ps...btw, this would mean you could only have your user id on the board, always.....

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Ease

Who determines who is being an @sshole? You? Me? Leon? Dan? Is Leon or Dan an @sshole for banning someone he thought was an @sshole? Should we ban Leon or Dan for being an @sshole to an @sshole?

See the problem with that?

Seriously? If Leon decided to ban 10 people a day just for fun, that would be totally okay with me. It's his ball. If he wants to take it away from people, that's his choice, and I have the utmost confidence in him.

[Rich Klein]

Sounds reasonable ---- and remember -- that person must also post and maintain a valid email address. The person who is asking must be able to contact the poster in question -- no blocks or anything ---

You say something, you take responsibility.

Rich

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by Ease

Imo everyone should have their first and last name under their login name or in their sig. Period. That ends all the oversight.

agreed

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

If you want to treat it like a clubhouse, that's your prerogative -- just keep in mind that this forum is as open to the public as a fishbowl.

It is not at all surprising that the clubhouse members want to know who they're conversing with by full name. You've all exposed yourselves as real humans, with real emotions and feelings. I'm just a Matty Dark Cap Avatar and a real passion for T206 cards. If the price for doing that here is joining your clubhouse, well then I guess I'll just move on.

Don't really have a rebuttal for you, Paul. You are correct that our "clubhouse" is also a fishbowl and I fully appreciate the security concerns people might have. If someone ever steals my baseball card collection maybe I'll wish I had stayed anonymous. The internet is lousy with nameless bottom dwellers and their unkind and stupid commentaries. Just look at any blog. I stand against that. I was fashioned in older times, my word is who I am and I will put my name by it and take my chances.

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by Leon

It is broken as I am having to get into the middle of too many debates and make decisions I don't want to have to make (so frequently). I realize it's not that bad for everyone else, but can you imagine getting PM's, emails and board posts asking you to intervene, multiple times every day. That is the way it is for me now.

Sounds like you need to hire a couple more moderators to help you out Leon

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by Kawika

Don't really have a rebuttal for you, Paul. You are correct that our "clubhouse" is also a fishbowl and I fully appreciate the security concerns people might have. If someone ever steals my baseball card collection maybe I'll wish I had stayed anonymous. The internet is lousy with nameless bottom dwellers and their unkind and stupid commentaries. Just look at any blog. I stand against that. I was fashioned in older times, my word is who I am and I will put my name by it and take my chances.

I couldn't agree more. Well typed.

[smtjoy]

Originally Posted by Ease

Imo everyone should have their first and last name under their login name or in their sig. Period. That ends all the oversight.

I already have my name up there so I am in this camp already. I do think we would have a lot less issues if that were the case but would lose some good posters too. Granted the systems is broke now so we are going to lose out one way or the other to fix things.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by smtjoy

I already have my name up there so I am in this camp already. I do think we would have a lot less issue if that were the case but would lose some good posters too. Granted the systems is broke now so we are going to lose out one way or the other to fix things.

Exactly my take too but...... there are good reasons to let folks stay private...

That is why my proposal right above might work? We might lose the fewest folks.

To answer a previous question, there is no and will be no board directory where everyones name is (besides the, moderators-only, very private registration database). The links section is there and if folks send me their info it gets put up there. IF they don't then it's not.

[JamesGallo]

Originally Posted by Kawika

Don't really have a rebuttal for you, Paul. You are correct that our "clubhouse" is also a fishbowl and I fully appreciate the security concerns people might have. If someone ever steals my baseball card collection maybe I'll wish I had stayed anonymous. The internet is lousy with nameless bottom dwellers and their unkind and stupid commentaries. Just look at any blog. I stand against that. I was fashioned in older times, my word is who I am and I will put my name by it and take my chances.

I agree with this as well. It drived me nuts that people try to sell something and just give an email. If I don't have contact with you how am I supposed to know your name. I believe currenctly the mods can see everyones name and I think that at a certain point a request for someone's name would be ok.

Lets say someone has to get to 100 or 200 posts before they can request contact infromation that might help as well and prevent a run of the mill searcher from getting any contact information.

Leon's idea seems like it is fine and I do think of this as somewhat of a community and enjoy talking cards with people in person as well.

I understand the security issue, but IMO if someone tracks you down with plans to steal your cards then it is more likely someone you know locally then someone you met on a chat board 5 states away. Just my opinion but I don't see typical crooks searching out card collections.

James G

[asphaltman]

For me it's not a matter of thinking everyone is going to come after my collection...just seems like after being around here for years you should have the right to be known by the majority of the board with your handle, or first name, or whatever....


And anyway, if some goofball wants to come after my collection they'll get to meet Mr. Smith & Wesson before they'd meet Mr. Cobb or Anson....

[Rich Klein]

Names are good --- is that believe it or not, there might be people with axes to grind, and they might even be compensated for those efforts --- to make posts about certain people, certain auction houses; certain grading companies, etc.

There was a case a couple of years back, where the CEO of Whole Foods Company went to a chat board to post negative things about not just a competitor but someone they were interested in purchasing as well.

Here is a link to one story about that situation

http://www.pcworld.com/businesscente...e_blunder.html

If I did not have to put my name out there, I could do something like this to hurt PSA/BGS/SGC or any of a number of auction houses. I might even be an employee of a competitor.

Yes I do get the privacy and security issue, but you know -- I had people over at my house to give me quotes on insulation --- and one guy showed me what he used to give me the quotes -- and EVERYTHING was a public record issue. Yes, he was/is very legit -- his quote was within 3 percent of the other quote I got.

My point is, there are more dangers to people not knowing who you are for this board then people knowing who you are. And, if you don't want people to know who you are -- stay out of the controversial threads and stay in the vast majority of threads.

Rich

[alanu]

Leon, is there anyway to earmark certain threads to require full names in order to post and then leave others where anyone can post.

That would probably require marking each user as to whether they are full name users or not.

Maybe more trouble than it's worth.

[Tsaiko]

or any kind of discussion with a board member, and they want to know who you are, then they can email me and I can tell them your name??

Any?? Jeez, that's a bit much. Wouldn't it just be easier for a board member to tell me they refuse to have a discussion with me because they don't know my name? Then I can have a choice. Besides, I can already feel some board members ignoring me and I know why, which is fine by me, I can respect that/them.

Also, you're referring to discussions on the board, right? Not PM's or other?

Look, I'm fine with being a spectator here, really, so don't put any weight on my opinion, but I'm the type of person that has multiple daily discussions with strangers and rarely introduce myself. I'm that person who turns around and starts talking to you in line at the grocery store or in the Doctor's office waiting room for no apparent reason. I feel that life is just too short to just wait, when there are other humans doing the same thing. Interact!
But, before you come into my house, I must know who you are. A lot of members feel this is their house, I'm sure, so there's the two sides of the coin as I see it. One's casual and one's personal.

Of course if I'm going to make a statement of negative fact about someone in the hobby, you can be sure that I will start that post with, "my name is".

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Kawika

Don't really have a rebuttal for you, Paul. You are correct that our "clubhouse" is also a fishbowl and I fully appreciate the security concerns people might have. If someone ever steals my baseball card collection maybe I'll wish I had stayed anonymous. The internet is lousy with nameless bottom dwellers and their unkind and stupid commentaries. Just look at any blog. I stand against that. I was fashioned in older times, my word is who I am and I will put my name by it and take my chances.

Just a couple of responses:

Requiring names may get rid of the bottom dwellers, so I get that, though only to a degree - who is to say what my real name is. You can call me "Paul" if you like.

But I think there's a missed point among those who put their real names, and that is what your current and future employers may think about your hobby. The number of HR departments that care about employee - current and prospective - Internet activity is only growing. Now, this is a far cry from porn, obviously. But the cleaner my Internet profile, the better. My next employer might not really want to hire someone who spends working hours browsing the b/s/t listings here.

I'd rather not have to worry about these paranoid concerns, or who will find me or look for me or whatever. And by keeping a low Internet profile, I don't have to.

So, again, if you'd like to take the small risk that posting your name with your valuables is going to get you robbed, or that your boss would fire you or not hire you, go for it, dude. But to require people who want to talk about baseball cards, of all things, to take any risk whatsoever is ridiculous.

[calvindog]

How about no names are listed but if one board member has a problem with another then names are divulged privately?

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Just a couple of responses:

Requiring names may get rid of the bottom dwellers, so I get that, though only to a degree - who is to say what my real name is. You can call me "Paul" if you like.

But I think there's a missed point among those who put their real names, and that is what your current and future employers may think about your hobby. The number of HR departments that care about employee - current and prospective - Internet activity is only growing. Now, this is a far cry from porn, obviously. But the cleaner my Internet profile, the better. My next employer might not really want to hire someone who spends working hours browsing the b/s/t listings here.

I'd rather not have to worry about these paranoid concerns, or who will find me or look for me or whatever. And by keeping a low Internet profile, I don't have to.

So, again, if you'd like to take the small risk that posting your name with your valuables is going to get you robbed, or that your boss would fire you or not hire you, go for it, dude. But to require people who want to talk about baseball cards, of all things, to take any risk whatsoever is ridiculous.

Probably not a bad idea to keep a low profile. Nowadays some dirtbag can pick your pocket via the internet from the comfort of his basement suite in Pyongyang or Bucharest. I'm just an old guy with dated expectations who appreciates the congeniality and manners of the bygone millenium and who is apparently pissing in the wind in the new one.