Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money

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Posted By: tbob

He announced today that he will be resigning from the SABR after 21 years unless the organization takes immediate steps to rectify the tragedy and inane voting of the 12 members of SABR who picked the new HOFers. It took 9 "yes" votes (it was a yes/no ballot) for Buck O'Neill to be admitted and 4 voters (at least) voted "no." Buck broke the color line by being the first African-American in major league baseball to wear a uniform other than as a player. Buck signed Lou Brock, Billy Williams and was instrumental in the signing and development of Ernie Banks. If you just take his record prior to 1962 and omit all he has done since then, he still should get in. He was a very good player in the Negro leagues, he won championships as a manager and has been a tremendous ambassador for baseball. Keith called on Commissioner Bud Selig to do something good for a change and either announce Buck and Minnie Minoso are hereby selected to the Hall of Fame or tell Major League Baseball that he is severing their ties with the Hall of Fame.
I agree with Keith, this is a tremendous travesty to someone who means as much to baseball and its fans as anyone alive. The idiots at SABR elect a gangster and a White woman who passed as Black and owned a team that won exactly one championship while she was there. The man who wrote her autiobiography was, surprise, surprise, one of the 12 voters. Selig has been an absolute disaster as Commissioner but he has a chance to do one right thing, I'm sure he won't.
As a final note, when advised that almost everyone of the 17 elected are dead and there wouldn't be anyone to speak for them at their induction, Buck volunteered to speak for them. He asked all his fans not to worry that he was not in the Hall of Fame and that he was happy and proud that they considered him to be a Hall of Famer. He is just such a class man. At 94, who knows how much longer he will live. If I were an African American with any sense of history, I would be absolutely infuriated with this vote. As a White American, I am just as incensed at the lack of justice and utter callousness of the SABR voters. Let's see how many of these voters hide behind the mask of anonymity and how many have the guts to tell how they voted.
This makes me sick...

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

Bob thanks for making it clear what you think - me too!

Peter

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Posted By: jay behrens

It's probably best that all the inductees are dead. This whole process has a been a nightmare, especially if you are on any of the sabr-l lists. I get about 50 emails a days that are on this topic alone. Selig won't do anything as he had his spine surgically removed long ago.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

I have to agree with keith on this one and thank you for making it public. I hope they feel the pressure in doing the right thing next go around!! JC

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Posted By: Daniel Bretta

Keith went off on his show last night...I've seen him sarcastic, I've seen him sad, I've seen him overjoyed, but I've never seen him mad like he was last night.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Wish I could have seen it. It truely is a rare side of him to see.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

I'll join the bandwagon of getting infuriated by this after Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, Harry Stovey, George Van Haltren, Tony Mullane and Dave Orr are elected to the HOF. Till then these are just two more deserving candidates on a long line to get in.

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Posted By: dennis

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/

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Posted By: barrysloate

And I'll add Ross Barnes to Jay's list. It seems as time goes on and each year's votes come in, more and more serious baseball scholars are becoming ever more disillusioned with how the Hall of Fame operates. I'm starting to think that picking new members is more of a popularity contest aimed at the average guy on the street; and isn't the HOF a business like any other? Don't you think they want as many people as possible coming up to Cooperstown to visit their museum? I think relatively few African Americans make the trek to the Hall and wouldn't all these new inductees be good for their bottom line? How much would attendence increase if Bob Caruthers got in? Maybe three more people would visit that year. Hate to be cynical, but the Hall of Fame is just a business like any other.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

on that Browning (and the others). I met Buck O'Neill in Cooperstown in 1996 when Bunning went in and he was INCREDIBLY nice and took so much time with every person who wanted his signature when too many were just ushered through the other lines.

1984 Pete Browning Louisville Slugger / Louisville Stoneware Statue..........

Any chance we'll have a 19th century committee again?

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Posted By: Max Weder

A few points. Please note that I am a supporter of Buck O'Neill for the Hall, and was disappointed to see that he did not get elected. However:

The SABR directory shows that Ray Doswell and Rob Ruck are not listed as SABR members, so it is unclear to me whether all 12 in fact were SABR members. (Robert Peterson just recently passed away; he was a SABR member)

Second, there is no indication to me that any of the members were appointed to the committee in their capacity as a SABR member. As you are all no doubt aware, SABR is open to anyone who will complete the form and send in the fee. It does not exclude. SABR did not have the power to determine how any of the committee members would vote.

It is unclear to me how his resignation from SABR will help the cause of Mr. O'Neill if SABR cannot indicate its organizational support. I am not an excutive or a director of SABR, and no doubt we will see some comments on Mr. Olberman's position in the SABR-L list. It is not clear to me whether such support would require a members' resolution, given that SABR members hold a wide array of views on every issue in baseball. I didn't see the interview, but will make a posting on SABR-L to elicit some response if others have not already done so.

Of course, anyone who is not a SABR member can join SABR (http://www.sabr.org) to follow any discussions or to contribute to the debate.

I do wish Buck had been elected, but I thought these points were important to note.

Max

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Buck is 94..that is really harsh for him not to be elected. Embarrassing. The guy is such an ambassador to the game. If John Madden and Tommy LaSorda can make the HOF, Buck certainly deserves in as well.

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Posted By: Rhys

I agree 100% with Jay Miller. I'll let the tears fly when the better candidates of the 19th century are in first. It is funny that life has come full circle in a way that if ANY of the names Jay Miller mentioned had been black and born in Cuba, they would be hall of famers right now. It would be more beneficial now (Certainly not in life) to be a Cuban baseball player at the turn of the century than a Major League Star in the 19th century like Tony Mullane as far as getting into the Hall of Fame.

I am from a dominantly multi-race family and am certainly not prejudice, and I believe that many of the candidates elected are deserving. However, in a way it is almost sad that it took a vote and process like THIS to get them in. I do not have a problem if Buck O'Niell or Minnie Minoso got in, but they were not nearly the players of their generation that any of the names Jay Miller mentioned were to their generation, Black or White does not matter in that regard.

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Posted By: DJ

I'm upset that he wasn't inducted. Are they going to do what they did to Leo Durocher? Induct him shortly after he passes? Today Buck said that he wasn't upset about being inducted and would be more than happy to speak at the Hall Of Fame on the behalf of the seventeen. Kudos to Keith as well.

DJ

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

my opinion is shared with many of you. He has done alot for the game and exemplifies truly wonderful charachter.
We should be blessed in one who has given so much and
one who gave a "humbling" statement to say the least.

Typical in action of the ways of todays world !

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Posted By: Jeff

I have to agree with Max on this one.

I stopped caring about the HOF a long time ago. It's really the "Hall of Very, Very Good" today and it continues to get diluted every year.

As for Bob's comments that "The idiots at SABR elect a gangster and a White woman", let's remember two things. First, anyone who sends in a $50 check can be a SABR member. Second - it's not like this was a vote by SABR membership. It was a vote made by a group of men put togther by MLB and the HOF. SABR was in no way affiliated with the vote. Blame the Comish, or blame MLB. Don't blame SABR.

Jeff

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Posted By: Tom Hufford

I didn't see Keith Olberman's show and didn't hear his comments, but the transcripts at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/ do not make any mention of SABR. The message by Bob that started this thread certainly mentions SABR, though, such as the "idiots at SABR," and "the callousness of the SABR voters."

Keith is a SABR member, Bob is not. It doesn't take "guts" to make any of those statements - just a lack of knowledge or unwillingness to do a bit of research.

This thread started out as a completely unjustified slam at SABR, but has quickly turned into somewhat of a discussion about the merits, or lack of merits, of those recently selected for induction to the Baseball Hall of Fame. Let's get back to the SABR part.

I was one of the 16 Founding Members of SABR at Cooperstown in 1971, and I currently serve on the SABR Board of Directors. Let me make it clear that these comments are strictly my own, and in no way officially represent the SABR membership or the SABR Board of Directors.

SABR had absolutely nothing to do with the recently announced Hall of Fame vote.

About 5 of 6 years ago, Major League Baseball made a grant of $250,000 to the Baseball Hall of Fame to help conduct a complete study of Negro League (and pre-League) baseball. The HOF contracted with more than 50 persons in conducting this study, let by Dr. Larry Hogan - who is not a SABR member, by the way. At the completion of this study last fall, the HOF decided to conduct a "final" vote on Negro League players, pioneers, executives, etc. for election to the Hall of Fame. The HOF (not SABR) named a 5-person committee to determine a list of persons to appear on the ballot. That 5-person committee consisted of Dr. Larry Hogan, Adrian Burgos, Dick Clark, Larry Lester, and Jim Overmyer. The last four are SABR members. They compiled the list of 39 names that was submitted for voting consideration. The HOF (not SABR)then named a 12-person committee to vote "yes" or "no" on each of these candidates, with a 75% "yes" vote needed for election. The 12 members included those on the original 5-person panel, plus 7 more that the HOF selected. Nine of the 12 were SABR members. This is a quick summary of the study and selection process, which is explained in much more detail on the HOF website. Unless I totally missed something, SABR isn't mentioned anywhere on that site.

The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum is a completely private organization, that makes its own rules for its operations and elections. The HOF is completely separate from Major League Baseball. The HOF is completely separate from SABR.

For anyone, whether it be a national television commentator or a member of this discussion board, to think that SABR (or the Commissioner's Office for that matter) has either the power or responsibility for overturning a decision or election of a separate, private organization doesn't take "guts," it takes - well, I'll leave it up to you. It is somewhat flattering though, as a SABR founder, to know that some folks think we have that power. I wonder if SABR will start taking heat for the selections of the HOF Veterans Committee, since one of our longtime SABR members, Stan Musial, has a vote on that Committee. And hopefully nobody will suggest that SABR tells Stan who to vote for.

Yes, 9 of the 12 voting members of the selection committee were members of SABR, but so what? That's like not agreeing with the opinion of a group of doctors and blaming the American Medical Association, or not liking a Supreme Court decision and blaming the American Bar Association. It just stands to reason that someone identified by the Hall of Fame as being one of the leading authorities on Negro League baseball might also be a member of the largest baseball research organization extant - SABR.

As far as the recent election itself, anyone complaining about the selections just hasn't done their homework on the selection process itself. The Hall of Fame first set up a Committee on Negro League Veterans in 1971. That committee included Roy Campanella, Monte Irvin, Judy Johnson, Sam Lacy, Alex Pompez, Eddie Gottlieb, and others. They elected Satchell Paige, Buck Leonard, Josh Gibson, and 6 others in the 7 years of their existance. They then disbanded the committee THEMSELVES, saying they had elected all the worthy candidates. They could have elected ANY of those on this current ballot, except Minoso, I guess, who was still on the BBWAA ballot. Later, the election of Negro Leaguers was added to the responsibility of the Veterans Committee, who again could have elected ANY of those on the recent ballot.

As a final aside, we as fans and historians should be wary of giving extra weight to a player's HOF qualifications, simply because that person is still living and available to make a speech. I haven't seen a single complaint voiced about the failure to elect Dick Redding, John Beckwith, or any of the other deceased names on the ballot - just that neither of the living choices were elected. How many times over the last 30 years have we heard the lament that the only reason Rube Marquard, Harry Hooper, Chick Hafey, et al were elected is because they were old and still around to give a speech. Let's not complain about not electing living players if we don't also complain about not electing just-as-qualified deceased players.

Again, the HOF election process is far from perfect, but if anyone should be blamed it should be those officially and directly involved. And that IS NOT the Society for American Baseball Research.

Keith, I hope you realize that any disagreement you have with the HOF vote is not SABR's fault or responsibility, and I hope that you continue as a valued member. And Bob, I hope that you will join us soon - check out www.sabr.org.

Thanks,
Tom Hufford

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

I agree with almost all of what you said. However, let it be known that I DO have a complaint about the failure to elect at the least, Beckwith, Donaldson, Lundy, Redding, and Grant Johnson. I'm also unhappy about the omission of Marcell, Oms, Scales and Brewer. I think the selection committee screwed up when they didn't pick Nip Winters, Bill Wright and Bill Monroe as finalists. Bus Clarkson also deserved some serious scrutiny. I didn't bitch here because it didn't seem to be the place to bitch. Rest assured, however, that I did bitch about the above to those who cared.

That having been said, I think the Committee, overall, did a great job. If Olberman wants to turn in his SABR membership, let him. You are right, SABR didn't run the elections. While I fully support Buck O'Neil's election to the HOF, and think it is long overdue, I think that is the fault of the Vets Committee, the HOF, and MLB. I fail to see how it is SABR's fault. If Olberman feels differently, that is his right. In that event, I feel strongly that he should abide by his statement and turn in his membership because, having watched "Animal House," I always appreciate pointless gestures.

Kenny Cole

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Posted By: George Altemose

Thanks to Tom Hufford for a reasoned and sober commentary on the recent Hall of Fame election and the role (or non-role) of SABR in it. I wish the authors of certain hysterical diatribes would read Tom's contribution and learn from it.

If Keith Olbermann delivered an ultimatum to SABR, as has been stated, and has promised to resign from SABR if his demands are not met, then he should display some integrity and resign at once. I am tired of promises from these spoiled publicity-seeking celebrities that are not fulfilled. Alec Baldwin promised to move to Europe if George Bush was elected. Bush was elected, and Mr. Basinger is still here. SABR was fine before Olbermann joined, and will be just as fine after he has gone.

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Posted By: tbob

First of all, thanks to Tom Hufford for taking the time to post and explain in more depth what went on with the voting. I think you are correct that SABR itself should not be slammed for what happened. That said, I renew my criticism of those members of SABR who DID cast votes denying Buck O'Neill his place in the Hall. I also think that there is some jealousy on some peoples' part (not yours Tom) with regard to Keith Olberman. I don't know if it is because of his tremendous collection of cards, his high salary which allows him to purchase cards others of us can only dream of, or the fact he is a member of the media, but Keith is not only an integral part of the hobby, having written many articles about cards, but is a grass roots true baseball fan. Further he has written many forwards for books written about ballplayers, including several concerning Negro League players. He has been a member of SABR for 21 years and in that time has truly contributed not only to the hobby we all love but a love of the National Pasttime also. He certainly needs no defense from this poster, but he'll get one.
Also, Tom H., you mention that you didn't see anything in the transcript you read about some of the things I alleged that Keith said. Many of the comments were made, not on his news show, but on the Dan Patrick shown on ESPN.com the next day after he had time to think about everything and really stew at the inequities. If you desire, his hour long segment can be heard in the ESPN.com archives if you pay a nominal fee.
I guess in conclusion I feel strongly about the injustice that happened to Buck O'Neill and every single word concerning his exclusion from the Hall which I wrote, I still believe with the exception that I would modify my comments about SABR, which is a great organization, to include only those members of SABR who did not vote to elect Buck and instead elected a gangster and a White woman, finding they were more worthy as Black candidates than someone who, in the words of J.D. Salinger in Shoeless Joe by W.P. Kinsella, represents baseball and everything that is good about America.

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Posted By: gregor197

Tbob wrote:
"...did not vote to elect Buck and instead elected a gangster and a White woman..."

Effa Manley may have had two white parents, but she lived her life as a black woman and was treated by society as a black woman. During the 1920s and 1930s - a very hard time in this country to be black - she chose to live in and be a member of the African-American community.

If anyone had told Mrs. Manley - or anyone else in the 1930s - when she was leading boycotts of Harlem department stores or receiving Jim Crow accomodations at hotels that she was a "white woman," they would have laughed at you. Nobody thought (or knew) that the co-owner of the Newark Eagles, who sponsored promotions at the ballpark for the NAACP's "Stop Lynching Now" campaign was white. Everyone assumed (or knew) that she was black.

She is a fantastic example of the fact that race is a socially constructed phenomenon, and not a biological fact. If she lived her life as a black woman and was accepted and understood by blacks and whites alike to be a black woman, then I think it is inaccurate to call her a "white woman."

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

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Posted By: George Altemose

Here is what tbob told us that he heard Keith Olbermann say:

"He announced today that he will be resigning from the SABR after 21 years unless the organization takes immediate steps to rectify the tragedy and inane voting of the 12 members of SABR who picked the new HOFers."

We were also told that Olbermann has "guts." Wonderful. Now let us see whether or not he also has integrity.

I have no knowledge or interest with regard to Olbermann's collection of baseball cards.

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Posted By: tbob

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

I'm not sure exactly what this alludes to, Gregor. I don't care if she passed herself off as an Asian-American, Native American, Eskimo or any other ethnic group or what color or race she purported to be. Yes she was active in the civil rights movement and I have given her credit for that, but she doesn't deserve to to be in the Baseball Hall of Fame because of this nor because of owning a baseball club which won a total on one championship under the tutelage of her and her husband.
Her inclusion and the exclusion of Buck O'Neill is a joke and a travesty.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Not that he cares what I think, but Olberman has always been an ass IMO. I don't see him doing anything to change that at this point in time.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: howard

I care, David! I thought that Olberman's righteous indignation was overblown and melodramatic.

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Posted By: Howard W. Rosenberg

This may be neither here nor there, but Olbermann, on his MSNBC show in January 2004, around the time of the release of Pete Rose's book, said betting on baseball has always being a holy grail. I then jumped on that (in a news release) by pointing out that my about-to-released book from that year contains 162 credible reports of bets on regular season baseball by players, managers or club officials through 1900. So, so much for being a holy grail.

However, I was able to use Olbermann's muff to draw coverage to my contrary research. See
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3921022/
http://usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2004-01-07-gambling-history_x.htm

So, while disagreeing with Olbermann's claim, I am glad he framed an issue on a worthy subject that ended up drawing more accurate attention to 19th-century baseball.

As far as what Olbermann may or may not have vowed in relation to the election of the 17 new names to the Hall of Fame:

He need not be taken at face value at anything he says, since he's a TV (and radio) personality, and opinionated TV (and radio) people are notorious for saying some outrageous things. A good example is Bob Ryan the Boston Globe sports writer versus Bob Ryan the TV pundit on ESPN. On ESPN, Ryan said something nutty a few years ago about Jason Kidd of the New Jersey Nets and then apologized. People say things on TV or radio that they would never write.

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Posted By: rp60

There have been a lot of great 'ambassadors' to the game..But being the first black coach, signing or discovering what turned out to be great players, or being a great interview for Ken Burns should not get you into the hall..However, if you are inducting 17 people at one time associated with the Negro leagues, and not inclued Buck!!
I guess Keith will take all his baseball cards and go home...

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Posted By: leon

please email me personally.....leonl@flash.net...I would like to have a short email chat this evening....if possible..........thanks

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Posted By: gregor197

I was making no claims as to her qualifications or lack thereof for the HOF. I was merely objecting to the characterization of her as a "white woman." Until 1972 or so, which covers the entire time of her involvement with baseball, she lived as a black woman and was understood by everyone else - black and white - to be a black woman.

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Posted By: Adam Smith

"She is a fantastic example of the fact that race is a socially constructed phenomenon, and not a biological fact."

That is just idiotic. There have been a lot of stupid things said, but this one takes the cake.

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Posted By: George Altemose

I think Howard Rosenberg is being quite magnanimous when he manufactures excuses for Keith Olbermann, on the basis that Olbermann is a TV and radio “personality,” and is therefore entitled to make stupid remarks that he would never put in writing.

Whether Keith Olbermann has said more stupid things than he has written is a matter for conjecture, and learning the answer to that question is certainly not worth the effort. Clearly no one has mistaken Olbermann for Grantland Rice. In this particular outrage, Mr. Olbermann, who is a member of SABR, apparently (according to tbob) took it upon himself to publicly denigrate a most worthy and honorable organization, based on a totally erroneous premise, because, as usual, he failed to do his homework. And homework, of course, is SABR’s middle name.

I think that Keith Olbermann has a small coterie of uninformed and gullible listeners, who believe what he says (or writes), because he is a famous TV and radio personality. Some of them may also be impressed by the size or value of his baseball card collection. However, none of these attributes is especially compatible with the goals and values of SABR, which emphasize careful research prior to reaching conclusions. Therefore, I find Keith Olbermann’s promise to resign from SABR to be his most reasonable statement in recent memory, and I hope that he will be sufficiently honorable not to renege.

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Posted By: gregor197

Adam Smith said:

>>She is a fantastic example of the fact that race is a
>>socially constructed phenomenon, and
>>not a biological fact.

>That is just idiotic. There have been a lot of stupid
>things said, but this one takes
>the cake.

Care to explain why?

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Posted By: David Vargha

I don't pretend to speak for the foremost economist in the world, but my two cents on the whole notion of "constructs" is that the idea tries to take obvious truths and show them to be simply ideas manufactured by the beliefs of a certain society. As such, there is no such thing as absolute truth. Black people have biological differences from White people, from Southeast Asians, etc. That is a fact.

To deny such an obvious fact opens a whole Pandora's Box of faulty philosophical reasoning. The outcome of such constructs is that societal standards are mere constructs, not based upon established truths. As such, a true adherent is forced to come to the Reductio ad absurdum conclusion that Hitler's mass killing of Jews, Gypsies and other so-called "undesirables" was acceptable because "Who are we to judge" their society in the light of our biased social constructs?

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Chad

There are no "races." Humans are not made up of separate subspecies. Yes, there are small differences between Africans and Europeans but those differences are so dwarfed by our similarities as to be almost meaningless. Meaningless except for how much WE want to invest them with meaning. To say that race is a social construct is not to argue that there are no moral standards, or that genocide can be acceptable. In fact, in this light, racism and genocide become not only immoral, but insane as well.

--Chad

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Posted By: David Vargha

There are distinct biological differences that have been labeled as "races". The fact that we label or name things to identify them does not make them "constructs". If so, your name and my name are constructs and the whole value of the term "construct" is rendered moot. Most complex life shares an incredible amount of biological similarity. I believe that the DNA of a zebra and a human share something like 97% of the same makeup. But that doesn't make me a zebra. That I am human is not a social construct. It is a fact.

That you don't like my reductio ad absurdum (reduction to the ridiculous) argument about Hitler's Germany is because it is in fact, ridiculous. But that's my point. Adherents of the notion of "constructs" are forced to come to such ridiculous conclusions if they are to maintain intellectual honesty. QED - the notion of constructs is flawed at its roots.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Leon...time for a time out here??

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Posted By: Chad

Which is not everything is a construct, but the notion of "human races" is. Just because you invent a word for something, doesn't make it a fact. I'm an inch taller than my brother and better looking, but that doesn't make us two separate races.

--Chad

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Posted By: leon

Chad and David- if ya'll want to discuss this topic that ya'll are debating it might be better handled off line via email....no mas please....thanks

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Posted By: David Vargha

Fair enough.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Jay Miller

My you boys talk purdy! But I digress. If the HOF wants to induct ambassadors of the game I suggest Bob Uecker. He is still alive and would probably give an entertaining speech. As for Minnie Minoso, I saw him play when I was a kid. He was a good ballplayer but nowheres close to one of the dominant players of his time, something I thought was a criteria for HOF induction.

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Posted By: George Altemose

So, if I understand Gregor correctly, he is saying that Effa Manley was able to change back and forth from being a white woman to being a black woman, and then back again to being a white woman. Gregor, do you think Effa Manley had any influence on Michael Jackson?

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Posted By: John J. Grillo

I agree is the Hall of the Very Good and not the Fame. Too many are in the HOF and the dilemma Baseball faces is trying to make "two wrongs equaling a right." Yes, there are a few Negro Leaguers deserving when compared to some Whites who were let into the HOF when they shouldn't have been elected into the first place. Just two quick examples, Bill Mazeroski and Ryne Sandberg, none of which are going to be remembered in Baseball folklore.

Here's a quick fix, let's just let everyone in and then the committee will not have to worry about matters of political correctness and of righting wrongs.

Looking forward to the day when I can see the busts of Dave Ricketts, Bob Montgomery, and Pepe Frias shining brilliantly in Cooperstown.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

John, great idea... everyone is let in and every year the Hall gets to vote people out! It'll keep them pretty busy and it lets them vote for more people that way!

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Posted By: gregor197

Leon said:

"Chad and David- if ya'll want to discuss this topic that ya'll are debating it might be better handled off line via email....no mas please....thanks"

I must respect Leon's wishes. So, as much as I would like to continue my part of the discussion, I will not do so.

Can't we at least agree to celebrate the HOF's long over-due honoring of people like Cristobal Torriente, Frank Grant, and Sol White?

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Posted By: leon

My wishes were only for those 2 to take the discussion off line that had developed in this thread.....the original topic of this thread is still open and anyone may talk about it. It's when it strayed way away from that, that I asked for a cease....

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Posted By: howard

For anyone who subscribes to ESPN.com Insider Rob Neyer wrote an excellent column today on the election of Effa Manley and the non-election of Buck o'Neil.