Slightly OT: Could the Braves and Indians be next?

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by cannonballsun

I think just about all the posters on this thread are missing the point. As White Americans, our opinions don't really matter on this issue. As well , the opinions don't really matter of Black Americans, or any other group besides Native Americans. Their opinion on this is what matters.
These names are applied to Native Americans. If they find it offensive, that should be enough for the rest of us. It's a matter of giving a fellow human being respect. If Native Americans want these names removed, that should be enough.
Respect your fellow human beings. Such a concept.

Don't entirely disagree but how many have to find it offensive for it to be removed? 50%? 100%? Or maybe one single person?

Some Native Americans find it offensive, some don't.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by williamcohon

I think the names need to be changed. Some of the previous posts talked about not seeing racism. Others made the point that any transgressions happened long ago. It dawns on me that that’s probably true. Many states drove all their tribes out a long time ago. Only Indian names remain as a reminder of the sad history. In such circumstances, it would be easy to feel a disconnect, and be impatient with those who want to stir things up by changing team names.



Here where I live, a little north of Seattle, in Washington State, there are numerous reservations. I see Native Americans every day. The tribes hold written agreements and treaties that our federal government has failed to honor. The grievances are not tales from long ago. They are current, and they are raw. Reducing people to a cultural stereotype, and using that stereotype as a team mascot, is demeaning.

+1

Lived in Spokane, WA. The local MiLB team, the Indians, work very closely with the local tribe. Jerseys sometimes include the team name written in their dialect, or salmon - an important symbol for local natives. They are a really good example of how to handle culturally sensitive topics with respect, and showing dignity to a group that has often been marginalized.

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[Tabe]

I am a season ticketholder for the Spokane Indians. Have been a regular at games for 22 years since moving to Spokane. The team is truly the poster child for how to handle this stuff. Roughly a decade ago, the topic of possibly changing the team name came up and they reached out to the local tribe. That tribe, whose official name is the Spokane Tribe of Indians, told them not to change the name. From there a conversation ensued on how to best honor the tribe. The result, as described above, has been the incorporation of Salish writing into the team logos and wordmarks. There is a display in the concourse of tribe-related information and material. When Spokane hosted the All-Star game a few years ago, they had a tribal drumming demonstration as part of the festivities. Everything they've done has been respectful and in consultation with the tribe.

[Aj-hman]

Originally Posted by david_l

Totally agree.

The Confederate statues were put up as a show of white supremacy and to intimidate people of color. Most were put up in the first couple of decades of the 20th Century.

They were a show of intimidation. Not honor. Their message is clear as day. If anyone disagrees with me please do some research before touting your “beliefs.”

-D Lu$ti$

I respect history. If history is sanitized we loose important messages and are likely to repeat our mistakes. The original message of these monuments is clear; however today and in the future the real message, a sad chapter of our history, will hopefully not be repeated.
Respectfully,
Aaron Heineman

[Aj-hman]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I am a season ticketholder for the Spokane Indians. Have been a regular at games for 22 years since moving to Spokane. The team is truly the poster child for how to handle this stuff. Roughly a decade ago, the topic of possibly changing the team name came up and they reached out to the local tribe. That tribe, whose official name is the Spokane Tribe of Indians, told them not to change the name. From there a conversation ensued on how to best honor the tribe. The result, as described above, has been the incorporation of Salish writing into the team logos and wordmarks. There is a display in the concourse of tribe-related information and material. When Spokane hosted the All-Star game a few years ago, they had a tribal drumming demonstration as part of the festivities. Everything they've done has been respectful and in consultation with the tribe.

I am glad there is a model that the pro teams could adopt.

Aaron

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Aj-hman

I respect history. If history is sanitized we loose important messages and are likely to repeat our mistakes. The original message of these monuments is clear; however today and in the future the real message, a sad chapter of our history, will hopefully not be repeated.
Respectfully,
Aaron Heineman

If the plaques on them were along the lines of (paraphrase), "Robert E Lee, traitorous leader of the Confederacy...blah blah blah", I could be persuaded to agree with you. But that's not what they were. They were statues to honor those leaders, tributes to them. Makes no sense.

Ditto for naming *military bases* after them. WTF. Do we have a Fort Rommel somewhere I'm not aware of?

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I am a season ticketholder for the Spokane Indians. Have been a regular at games for 22 years since moving to Spokane. The team is truly the poster child for how to handle this stuff. Roughly a decade ago, the topic of possibly changing the team name came up and they reached out to the local tribe. That tribe, whose official name is the Spokane Tribe of Indians, told them not to change the name. From there a conversation ensued on how to best honor the tribe. The result, as described above, has been the incorporation of Salish writing into the team logos and wordmarks. There is a display in the concourse of tribe-related information and material. When Spokane hosted the All-Star game a few years ago, they had a tribal drumming demonstration as part of the festivities. Everything they've done has been respectful and in consultation with the tribe.

Let's not forget to give a shout out to George Brett and his brother, owners of the team.

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[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I am a season ticketholder for the Spokane Indians. Have been a regular at games for 22 years since moving to Spokane. The team is truly the poster child for how to handle this stuff. Roughly a decade ago, the topic of possibly changing the team name came up and they reached out to the local tribe. That tribe, whose official name is the Spokane Tribe of Indians, told them not to change the name. From there a conversation ensued on how to best honor the tribe. The result, as described above, has been the incorporation of Salish writing into the team logos and wordmarks. There is a display in the concourse of tribe-related information and material. When Spokane hosted the All-Star game a few years ago, they had a tribal drumming demonstration as part of the festivities. Everything they've done has been respectful and in consultation with the tribe.

Just talking to a good buddy here in Cleveland, we can't figure out why the Indians can't do this!!!!!!! We have trophy cases and rooms with plaques everywhere, why not dedicate a section to showing WHY we're the Indians, show some respect for the natives that preceded us? Work as a frickin' partnership.

[Aj-hman]

Originally Posted by G1911

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

Originally Posted by Tabe

If the plaques on them were along the lines of (paraphrase), "Robert E Lee, traitorous leader of the Confederacy...blah blah blah", I could be persuaded to agree with you. But that's not what they were. They were statues to honor those leaders, tributes to them. Makes no sense.

Ditto for naming *military bases* after them. WTF. Do we have a Fort Rommel somewhere I'm not aware of?

as americans we have a complicated history.
the story below outlines a march of triumph over a bridge.
i cite the story to help better illustrate that we have the power over objects and what they mean today.

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/17/87968...s-wide-support

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Aj-hman

as americans we have a complicated history.
the story below outlines a march of triumph over a bridge.
i cite the story to help better illustrate that we have the power over objects and what they mean today.

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/17/87968...s-wide-support

Good source. I saw this in this last week somewhere else. Lots of dilemmas. But I don't think sports teams' names need to be one of them. Refer back to Spokane Indian posts above.

[Aj-hman]

Originally Posted by todeen

Good source. I saw this in this last week somewhere else. Lots of dilemmas. But I don't think sports teams' names need to be one of them. Refer back to Spokane Indian posts above.

I would refer you to this post I wrote on 7/13 prior to the excellent example of the Spokane Indians.

Originally Posted by Aj-hman

I believe that the braves, indians and redskins have an opportunity to succeed either way they go. I am sure there is a native american nation that would consider adopting one of these sports teams. If a sovereign native american nation adopts the team it would legitimize the sports organization and provide a benefit to both. Changing the narrative from that of caricature to one of respect could uplift the native american community and propel the sports team in a new respectful direction. Also creating new marketing opportunities. Open a dialogue with the leadership of native american community see what they have say about using their likeness and telling their story. There are so many benefits to opening a dialogue.

If keeping affiliation with native american branding is not the way forward then rebranding the team is an amazing opportunity. You get to create a whole new culture for your fans and create a deep well of marketing opportunities. With the social media allowing almost immediate feedback the fan base would practically rebrand themselves.

With adversity comes an opportunity for tremendous growth. Being positive and open minded to the inevitability of change leads to success.

Aaron

[cannonballsun]

I have never got the idea of people saying - if we remove statues, we're erasing history. History stays the same, just a statue has been moved.
I have always loved to read about history. There are many great books that have been written about history.
If you're getting your history by looking at a statue, and that's it , I would say you don't know much about history.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Aj-hman

I would refer you to this post I wrote on 7/13 prior to the excellent example of the Spokane Indians.

Ah, somehow I missed that one. I concur.

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[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by cannonballsun

I have never got the idea of people saying - if we remove statues, we're erasing history. History stays the same, just a statue has been moved.
I have always loved to read about history. There are many great books that have been written about history.
If you're getting your history by looking at a statue, and that's it , I would say you don't know much about history.

Particularly the Confederate monuments. We're not talking about monuments in a cemetery or on a battlefield. These were erected in public places, like courthouses, decades after the war AND during the rise of Jim Crow. They were a tool of intimidation.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by cannonballsun

I have never got the idea of people saying - if we remove statues, we're erasing history. History stays the same, just a statue has been moved.
I have always loved to read about history. There are many great books that have been written about history.
If you're getting your history by looking at a statue, and that's it , I would say you don't know much about history.

I think "a statue has been moved" is quite a polite way to refer to the destruction of public (and private) property by a mob of people. Should they be moved or removed? Perhaps. But I'm hoping your not condoning that the ends justifies the means in how some of these have been 'moved'.

As to the original OT question. I'm not sure I buy the Braves name change. This gets back to the question of who takes offensive and how many need to be offended to be classified as 'offensive'. Sometime in the 1987-1994 time frame (as I remember where I was living at the time), this was brought up with regard to the Braves (among others). There were a number of Native Americans that were fine with the team name of the Braves as it was a symbol of strength, courage, and nobility. The Redskins and Indians would be a different matter.

[Jason19th]

It is not true to say that no one alive was victim to the two century attempt to destroy Native land and identity. Well into the 1960’s and 1970’s young native children were taken from their families to be sent to Indian schools or to be placed with white families. This was done to strip these children of their heritage.

It was not until 1978 the the Indian Child Welfare Act was passed to address this issue

This in Not ancient history

[cannonballsun]

Originally Posted by tschock

I think "a statue has been moved" is quite a polite way to refer to the destruction of public (and private) property by a mob of people. Should they be moved or removed? Perhaps. But I'm hoping your not condoning that the ends justifies the means in how some of these have been 'moved'.

As to the original OT question. I'm not sure I buy the Braves name change. This gets back to the question of who takes offensive and how many need to be offended to be classified as 'offensive'. Sometime in the 1987-1994 time frame (as I remember where I was living at the time), this was brought up with regard to the Braves (among others). There were a number of Native Americans that were fine with the team name of the Braves as it was a symbol of strength, courage, and nobility. The Redskins and Indians would be a different matter.

Of course, I don't agree with mobs destroying statues.
I live in New Orleans. The city removed the 4 most prominent Confederate statues in this city. It was a move that I would say the great majority of the residents of the city approved of.
I'm not in favor of destroying art. The statue of P.T. Beauregard in particular was a very beautiful statue of him riding on a very beautiful horse. I think these statues belong in museums, in a proper setting, with the proper context.
The city has placed them in storage, no one knows what will happen to them eventually.