This looks interesting indeed

[mordecaibrown]

Chris -

I mean no disrespect, but I think you are over simplifying this and not looking at whole picture.

1) Does H&S take a percentage from the consigner? Lets just assume its 10% (as I have no idea if they do and if so, what the percentage would be - simple assumption for illustration purposes).

They bid $600 on it, but it only cost them $540, because they got $60 from consignor. All of a sudden that profit Erick showed earlier just grew from $28 to $88.

2) When HOC bids in a H&S auction, the only possible scenarios is H&S benefits.

Either - they increase the bid amount; therefore, directly increasing the buyers premium. If current bid is $200 (H&S makes $39 - 19.5% buyers premium). If they make a bid of $300 and are outbid by another bidder max bid, the new high bid is $330 (H&S makes $64.35 on buyers premium). They just made $25 by simply making a bid. Do you make $25 (or any money) by making a bid in the auction? This profit amount increases with the value of the item.

OR - they win the item at a discount versus other bidders. If they win an item at $200 and pay the 19.5% buyers premium and receive a consignors fee of 10%, then total cost = $239 - $20 = $219. Also, this assumes that they do pay the buyers premium, if you dont think they do because the two places are owned by the same person - then the savings increase!

When a bidder can only benefit from bidding in an auction thats a conflict of interest.

Any.y K.enne.dy

[vintagechris]

Originally Posted by mordecaibrown

Chris -

I mean no disrespect, but I think you are over simplifying this and not looking at whole picture.

1) Does H&S take a percentage from the consigner? Lets just assume its 10% (as I have no idea if they do and if so, what the percentage would be - simple assumption for illustration purposes).

They bid $600 on it, but it only cost them $540, because they got $60 from consignor. All of a sudden that profit Erick showed earlier just grew from $28 to $88.

2) When HOC bids in a H&S auction, the only possible scenarios is H&S benefits.

Either - they increase the bid amount; therefore, directly increasing the buyers premium. If current bid is $200 (H&S makes $39 - 19.5% buyers premium). If they make a bid of $300 and are outbid by another bidder max bid, the new high bid is $330 (H&S makes $64.35 on buyers premium). They just made $25 by simply making a bid. Do you make $25 (or any money) by making a bid in the auction? This profit amount increases with the value of the item.

OR - they win the item at a discount versus other bidders. If they win an item at $200 and pay the 19.5% buyers premium and receive a consignors fee of 10%, then total cost = $239 - $20 = $219. Also, this assumes that they do pay the buyers premium, if you dont think they do because the two places are owned by the same person - then the savings increase!

When a bidder can only benefit from bidding in an auction thats a conflict of interest.

Any.y K.enne.dy

Hi Andy,
I'm not sure what you mean by over simplifying or the point that I am over simplifying is, but I agree with everything you are saying. For the record, I am of the opinion that this is a major conflict of interest and I am skeptical as to why HOC would buy those 1952 Topps cards to try and resell as they say.

Maybe I didn't do a good job of explaining how I feel about this, but I think I am seeing the big picture. To me, it is a big conflict of interest and I personally don't buy the two different businesses they are trying to sell to people on the board.

Ahhh, I see you were talking about Chris B

ch...s Sh..-re-v..e

[Jaybird]

I think I'm done beating this horse. Last point other than to say that I won't be bidding at H&S anymore.


Bottom line, an item is worth a certain amount of money. H&S bidding on their own items allows them to bid up items close to that value. If an item is too low, they bid it up until it gets closer to the real value. If they lose, great. They get all the fees, etc. On the other side, if they win, they still get an item near the value of the item and then resell it on HOC. Even if they break even or lose at HOC, they can declare that loss or break even. I'm sure they make up any break even or loss (of which I don't think there is any) by all of their "losing" bids.

Let me make it clear that I don't know how many items they are bidding on. But I'm sure it is judicious and calculated. They aren't going to go crazy and win items way over value. They are going to get them right up there near the value that they think they can sell them for on HOC. But, if they can get a $1200 item for $1100 and then resell it for $1200, they make $100. If a buyer wins the item at $1000 (one increment lower), he breaks even.

I don't see how this can be a level playing field and I ain't playing on it anymore.

[pgellis]

How about these 2 lots?

http://jan12.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=41124

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-JGA-Jap...item53eb994c40

[mordecaibrown]

Vintage Chris - sorry for the confusion, yes we agree and I was referring to the other chris.

Jaybird - summed it up PERFECTLY.

In this case, maybe they took a shot and only made a little. The damage is in the lots that they place on the lots they DONT win. In those cases, they increased the bid price and therefore the buyers premium - making themselves more money. And you have NO idea - you think your in a bidding war with another bidder, but it could be the auction house.

There is no way of ever knowing when HOC is putting bids in on an item unless its the last winning bidder and then you see the cards on ebay in their store. How often do they bid on an auction raising a price to what they feel is acceptable and you never know?

A.ndy Ke.nned.y

[atx840]

Thanks guys, I think we are in agreement that it can be quite shady and yes if they bump but don't win they WIN on the consigners fee + the BP. We will never know.

one tiny thing Jason - "if they can get a $1200 item for $1100" how would they get something at $1100 that you and I couldnt? Saving on the BP or consigners fee? If they are then that savings hurts H&Ss profit by $100, so no advantage.

all around they should just stay out of it, go bid on everything else out there.

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by atx840

Thanks guys, I think we are in agreement that it can be quite shady and yes if they bump but don't win they WIN on the consigners fee + the BP. We will never know.

one tiny thing Jason - "if they can get a $1200 item for $1100" how would they get something at $1100 that you and I couldnt? Saving on the BP or consigners fee? If they are then that savings hurts H&Ss profit by $100, so no advantage.

all around they should just stay out of it, go bid on everything else out there.

I guess we're just nitpicking now since we all agree that it ain't right, or at least some of us agree.

The advantage is that they now have the item. Profit isn't realized until that item is sold. We'd have to track the item until it is finally sold to decide where the profit was won or lost.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by pgellis

How about these 2 lots?

http://jan12.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=41124

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-JGA-Jap...item53eb994c40

From the same lot:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1985-Mi...ht_2329wt_1185

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1973-Ja...ht_2332wt_1165

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970s-Tokyo-...ht_2766wt_1165

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-c-1960s...ht_2664wt_1165