A possible solution for the PSA 8 T206 Wagner?

[tothrk]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I think Authentic...cut from sheet would be appropriate.

As long as the holder says AUTH without any numbers, I could go along. In the end, I guess my opinion doesn't matter because I will never be the owner of this card. Therefore, I will never be the seller either. Personally, if I had the financial means, I would rather buy one of the Ex specimens floating around which are 100% authentic and unaltered. I do have what may be a silly question though. Can PSA essentially recall this product and reholder themselves? When they sell you beef with e-coli in it, they recall it so I thought maybe PSA could step up to the plate and do the right thing. I suppose that would be an admission of some sort so I'm not holding my breath.

[ullmandds]

I agree...I've never been a condition guy...a nice vg would tickle me pink!!!!!!

[WhenItWasAHobby]

My interpretation of the Lanham Act as to its relevance is:

(a) Civil action
(1)Any person who, on or in connection with any goods or services, or any container for goods, uses in commerce any word, term, name, symbol, or device, or any combination thereof, or any false designation of origin, false or misleading description of fact, or false or misleading representation of fact, which—

(B)in commercial advertising or promotion, misrepresents the nature, characteristics, qualities, or geographic origin of his or her or another person’s goods, services, or commercial activities,

shall be liable in a civil action by any person who believes that he or she is or is likely to be damaged by such act.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/1125

I could be wrong, but I don't see being involved in the actual direct sale or having ownership of the item in question matters based on what I've highlighted in bold print.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dan, on its face this applies most naturally to suits by competitors -- who have been harmed because the defendant either misrepresents his own goods, or the competitor's goods. It seems a stretch to me to say PSA, in the context of a sale of the Wagner, by virtue of having once graded it, would be misrepresenting the seller's goods. Just my .02, which is probably worth .01.

[birdman42]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Corey, right on, the hobby has to insist every card and collector and hobbyist and grading standard is the same for everybody, every card, every time.

So PSA is going to review every card Mastro ever submitted? Not gonna happen. (Gratuitous reductio ad absurdum.)

Bill

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by birdman42

So PSA is going to review every card Mastro ever submitted? Not gonna happen. (Gratuitous reductio ad absurdum.)

Bill

i was referring to carving out a special qualifier just to suit this card. since we know about this one being trimmed now, it should join the ranks of the Authentic/trimmed. this card may be special in the hobby, but it shouldnt be special in the card grading world. treat it the same.

[drc]

PSA8 Trimmed would make no sense. It would be like labeling a card Mint Poor. Or Up Down (Do I hear a Cat Dog anyone?). Nrrmt-Mt and altered are mutually exclusive terms-- the presence of one means the absence of the other.

And, yes, strip cards and Kellogg's cards that were intended to be hand cut are a different situation. That topic is a for another thread some day.

The practical issue is if the card is indeed 'hand cut' (using the term colloquially) and it is known by the seller that it is altered, then the seller has to detail its condition correctly at next sale. A significant event is how it is described next time it comes up for auction.

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by tothrk

I would rather buy one of the Ex specimens floating around which are 100% authentic and unaltered.

X2

[Leon]

Originally Posted by g_vezina_c55

X2

They are talking about buying....not selling.

[RGold]

Love is fleeting

[Leon]

Originally Posted by RGold

Love is fleeting

so are some collections

[t206hound]

Leon, you made me laugh out loud twice in one day... that's tough to do!

[ullmandds]

youth is fleeting too!

[insidethewrapper]

If the current PSA "8" is deemed "Auth" then I believe the highest rated Wagner will be PSA "5"

[olrac44]

Why not slab it similar to this?

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2009/890.html

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by olrac44

Why not slab it similar to this?

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2009/890.html

Under the new idea, this card could be re-slabbed as a 7 or 8 (hand cut).

To get the 'hand cut' qualifier, would I have to prove I cut it from a strip?

If so, then if Bill Mastro's word is good enough (that he cut it from a strip), would mine be?

[atx840]

Too funny Leon

HC designation could also work for printers scrap.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Leon

so are some collections

LOL! And fast! Like the Chicago guy without the drama!

[Mrc32]

If the Wagner was cut from a sheet of cards.....what happened to all the other cards on that sheet? Did he cut them out too and are they a floating around in PSA 8 holders?

[olrac44]

The Plank in my post above I believe was on the same sheet.

[scooter729]

At the PSA lunch right now - David Hall is 100 percent standing by the PSA 8 grade, and says the only debate was whether to grade it a 7 or 8. He says they will stand by their product but they don't believe the evidence to date.

[calvindog]

Good for PSA! Ride that ship all the way down to the bottom of the sea!

[travrosty]

circling the wagons, great! full blown investigation, here we come!!!

don't stop at just card grading!!!

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by scooter729

At the PSA lunch right now - David Hall is 100 percent standing by the PSA 8 grade, and says the only debate was whether to grade it a 7 or 8. He says they will stand by their product but they don't believe the evidence to date.

LOL! Not surpising.......

Was this recorded on video or even audio?

[scooter729]

Not sure if anything was recorded, but Hall was adamant that he examined te Wagner with a magnifying glass and stood by it, but if anything was proven otherwise and PSA had to compensate a buyer for any reason, that was part of their guarantee.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Thanks for the updates scooter729.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So the grader, Bill Hughes, was lying (or was misquoted)? Interesting. Hall is probably taking a chance that whatever Bill Mastro has to say about it won't see the light of day.

[botn]

I have always said it and caught sh!t about it for years--once the card is graded it is 100% legit. That is why grading companies can offer a guarantee of a buy back. They never HAVE to use it.

Too bad it is not an option to break out the card and have it examined by a panel of "disinterested" graders. But then you void the all important guarantee.

Shill bidding is a blessing compared to the things that go on behind the plastic. FBI has put their resources in the wrong place.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by scooter729

At the PSA lunch right now - David Hall is 100 percent standing by the PSA 8 grade, and says the only debate was whether to grade it a 7 or 8. He says they will stand by their product but they don't believe the evidence to date.

He should stand behind their product - PSA appears to use very high-quality plastic, and their labels are second to none.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To quote Wallace Stevens, "What we said of it became a part of what it is."

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by botn

I have always said it and caught sh!t about it for years--once the card is graded it is 100% legit. That is why grading companies can offer a guarantee of a buy back. They never HAVE to use it.

Too bad it is not an option to break out the card and have it examined by a panel of "disinterested" graders. But then you void the all important guarantee.

Shill bidding is a blessing compared to the things that go on behind the plastic. FBI has put their resources in the wrong place.

Amen to that.

[scooter729]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So the grader, Bill Hughes, was lying (or was misquoted)? Interesting. Hall is probably taking a chance that whatever Bill Mastro has to say about it won't see the light of day.

Hall said Hughes told him that the quotes in the book and the newspaper articles were outright lies, and Hughes never said he knew the card was trimmed.

The plot thickens...

[Peter_Spaeth]

What a tangled web we weave....

[botn]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Amen to that.

Funny thing Dan, is that for years you attacked me endlessly for my position as it was an anti PSA stance.

[barrysloate]

I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of silent seas.


As long as we're quoting poetry today.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by botn

Funny thing Dan, is that for years you attacked me endlessly for my position as it was an anti PSA stance.

As I recall Greg, my issue was wanting to see some evidence made public - which I finally did.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In the room collectors come and go,
talking of Hall and Orlando.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Also I see Keith Olbermann takes his shots on this fiasco

http://keitholbermann.mlblogs.com/tag/mastro-auctions/

[barrysloate]

In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo...

[baseballart]

Barry

I do not wish to see you wearing white flannel trousers.

[barrysloate]

But do I dare to eat a peach?

[Peter_Spaeth]

No worries, he won't drown.

[barrysloate]

I feel like a patient etherized upon a table...

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Also I see Keith Olbermann takes his shots on this fiasco

http://keitholbermann.mlblogs.com/tag/mastro-auctions/

"Before and after somebody with the guts of a burglar and the skills of a circumcision specialist had trimmed the thing.

In its previous state the Wagner was an anomaly. It had very large white borders, and the card was thus perhaps 10% bigger than the average T-206. It looked like it had been hand-cut from a sheet of cards, and not done by a machine. Some of the corners were stubbed and worn from age. "

Interesting. So Olberman had all this information for all these years, but only now had the "guts of a burglar" to finally make his thoughts public?

Keith, you were scooped.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I was not aware that the alleged "before" photo showed a card with stubbed corners, I thought the differences were more subtle.

[mcgwirecom]

Just saw this video on youtube. Thought it was funny and pertained to this thread. Proof the card was tampered with...LOL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piPoDVb4_OA

sorry if it was posted before.

[brob28]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Aren't all trimmed cards hand cut? None of the card doctors send their cards to a factory- they hand cut them themselves.

This card was cut to deceive. I don't see how hand cut would apply. It's trimmed. Period. It's not a PSA 8 in any way whatsoever.

+1

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So the grader, Bill Hughes, was lying (or was misquoted)? Interesting. Hall is probably taking a chance that whatever Bill Mastro has to say about it won't see the light of day.

My guess is that the light of day, formally, is about 6 months away. But what do I know?

[g_vezina_c55]

any news in the psa8 wagner case?

[cobblove]

"Its like the Mona Lisa of baseball cards. Thats why its worth so much."
Or because it looks like its Nm-Mt and not Ex.