The evidence against Barry Halper is mounting

[slidekellyslide]

Wow...just wow. I think I'd question just about anything in that collection at this point.

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=798#more-798

[Scott Garner]

Interesting read Dan. I would have to agree with you....

[Matt]

Legendary also stated that it had “destroy(ed) the paperwork that accompanied the jersey…” Those papers included letters of authenticity from Sotheby’s, Grey Flannel Authentication and Robert Lifson , a Halper associate who was lead consultant for the Sotheby’s sale.

big fan of destroying documentation...

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Matt

big fan of destroying documentation...

To be fair the documentation in this case was bad and they destroyed it so nobody else could use it as PROOF of it being genuine.

[scooter729]

Wow, my work won't be happy that I just spent a good amount of time reading that whole article, but I had to keep reading!

Sad to see some of these items likely are not real. It would be awesome to think these treasures have survived, but the evidence definitely seemed stacked against Halper.

It would be interesting to know whether Halper knew the truth, or if he was scammed on purchasing the items, but based on some of his inconsistencies (like the stories about Joe Jackson's widow and the former player who had Wilbert Robinson's jersey), it sounds like he wasn't the one being scammed in all of these cases...

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by scooter729

It would be interesting to know whether Halper knew the truth, or if he was scammed on purchasing the items, but based on some of his inconsistencies (like the stories about Joe Jackson's widow and the former player who had Wilbert Robinson's jersey), it sounds like he wasn't the one being scammed in all of these cases...

Anyone got a running list of "bad" items in this sale?
-Joe Jax jersey
-Wilbert Robinson jersey
-Ty Cobb's Shotgun
-Ty Cobb diaries
-possibly every single Ty Cobb item that originated from Al Stump?
-Radbourn and ?? (Forgot the other guy) cabinet photos in street clothes

[19cbb]

Dan, don't have the catalog at hand, but I think there was a phony Cummings.

[slidekellyslide]

I did a quick scan of the catalogs again this morning and I'm curious as to what kind of documentation some of these jersey's had. There is nothing in the way of provenance offered up in the catalog, and we're talking about Anson, Ewing, Thorpe, McGinnitty, McGraw and bunches of other incredible jerseys.

[canjond]

Originally Posted by 19cbb

Dan, don't have the catalog at hand, but I think there was a phony Cummings.

It was Roger Connor.

[19cbb]

Originally Posted by canjond

It was Roger Connor.

I meant the Cummings in lot 202

[canjond]

Originally Posted by 19cbb

I meant the Cummings in lot 202

My mistake. Connor was the other cabinet Dan was referring to.

[mr2686]

so what's the thinking here...he got duped, knew it, and starting making up authentication stories to save face, or did he knowingly invest very little in bogus stuff in order to sell it later on at high market value?

[D. Bergin]

I have a feeling Halper was just one of those guys who believed everything he was told, because he wanted to believe it.

The collectible world is full of people with "stories" of their treasured heirlooms. Unfortunately there's plenty of folks out there who take it at face value without doing the research. Why else would companies like Coach's Corner be so successful?

Being in the boxing field, I can't tell you how many calls I get from people who have gloves of famous boxers "given to their father/grandfather" and passed down in the family.

Usually the story goes something like "My father met Rocky Marciano at a gym. Rocky gave him a pair of gloves and told him, these are the gloves I used to knock out Jersey Joe Walcott".

Whether the gloves were even owned or even touched by the original boxer is a matter of debate. The fact is 99 times out of 100 the gloves offered aren't even the right size, brand or even era of glove.............and more times then not, they are sparring gloves and not actual fight used gloves.

Whether Halper made up these stories himself or just naively passed on anecdotes he was told, I don't know.

I'm sure plenty of his material was also pretty good.

[slidekellyslide]

There is no doubt that most of the material in his collection is good...but that is stuff like cards, and memorabilia. When it comes to the game used stuff I'm not sure I'd trust anything in that collection. And I think at this point it's apparent that he wasn't just duped, but he did some duping himself. (ie Jackson and Robinson jerseys)

[mcgwirecom]

Around the time of the Halper Auction ( I think it was a few months after) there was someone selling more of Halpers collection on Ebay. Mostly the cheaper items that didn't warrant a catalog auction. I definitely saw a bogus McGwire signed bat. The signature wasn't even close. It bothered me that a guy with a collection that valuable didn't bother to even check out the cheap stuff.

On a related note, when the travelling show of McGwire and Sosa items came through Philly I went to see it (at the Vet during a Phillies game). Todd McFarlane sent a lot of his Guernsey's Auction acquisitions on tour so people could take a look. In there along with all his homerun balls he had two bats, one signed by Mac and one signed by both Sosa and Mac. Both were horrible forgeries. Very strange.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by mcgwirecom

Around the time of the Halper Auction ( I think it was a few months after) there was someone selling more of Halpers collection on Ebay. Mostly the cheaper items that didn't warrant a catalog auction. I definitely saw a bogus McGwire signed bat. The signature wasn't even close. It bothered me that a guy with a collection that valuable didn't bother to even check out the cheap stuff.

On a related note, when the travelling show of McGwire and Sosa items came through Philly I went to see it (at the Vet during a Phillies game). Todd McFarlane sent a lot of his Guernsey's Auction acquisitions on tour so people could take a look. In there along with all his homerun balls he had two bats, one signed by Mac and one signed by both Sosa and Mac. Both were horrible forgeries. Very strange.

Randall,
Why do you think that Todd McFarlane paid as much as he did for all those McGwire and Sosa balls? Just because you have alot of money doesn't mean that you have alot of common sense. BTW, I wouldn't doubt if the prices realized on some of those balls weren't the result of some spirited shill bidding IMHO.

[springpin]

I ask this question out of genuine ignorance about uniforms. If these uniforms are not the real deal, where did they come from, or what exactly are they? Are they uniforms used in spring training that never made it to the big leagues? Are they total cut-and-stitch fakes made a month previous to "discovery"? Should we envision some 80-year old seamstress hunched over a sewing machine with orders from some criminal mind to fabricate (literally) a uniform that looks like one worn 70 years previously when she was a child? Is there a "uniform cartel" run by bad guys who just happen to be wickedly handy with a needle and thread? I accept the wisdom and opinions of experts on uniforms to believe their judgments---the uniforms are not what they are claimed to be. OK, but someone please explain where and how these fakes come into existence. Thanks.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by springpin

I ask this question out of genuine ignorance about uniforms. If these uniforms are not the real deal, where did they come from, or what exactly are they? Are they uniforms used in spring training that never made it to the big leagues? Are they total cut-and-stitch fakes made a month previous to "discovery"? Should we envision some 80-year old seamstress hunched over a sewing machine with orders from some criminal mind to fabricate (literally) a uniform that looks like one worn 70 years previously when she was a child? Is there a "uniform cartel" run by bad guys who just happen to be wickedly handy with a needle and thread? I accept the wisdom and opinions of experts on uniforms to believe their judgments---the uniforms are not what they are claimed to be. OK, but someone please explain where and how these fakes come into existence. Thanks.

The uniforms ARE vintage...the question is, are they legitimate. It's pretty easy to stitch a name into a uniform. According to the article the Joe Jax uniform has stitches that are not faded like the rest of the uniform, and that's only one problem among many with that jersey.

[springpin]

Dan,

Thanks. If I understand the meaning of your answer, a uniform is declared to be what someone says it is because of the name of a player stitched somewhere into the uniform. So a given uniform was legitimately from some notable team (e.g., 1919 White Sox), but the critical issue is whether it was actually worn by a particular player (e.g., Jackson)?

Paul

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by springpin

Dan,

Thanks. If I understand the meaning of your answer, a uniform is declared to be what someone says it is because of the name of a player stitched somewhere into the uniform. So a given uniform was legitimately from some notable team (e.g., 1919 White Sox), but the critical issue is whether it was actually worn by a particular player (e.g., Jackson)?

Paul

In the case of the Jackson jersey it appears to not even have been a White Sox jersey at all. Halper acquired the jersey prior to Mark Okkonen's work on the Uniform database when it would have been much easier to pass it off. Halper claims to have acquired it directly from Jackson's wife in the 1950s which has been disputed.

I seem to recall a case where a Frank Chance jersey that was missing the Cubs patch on the breast somehow ended up with a Cubs patch from another jersey of a minor "no-name" guy. The leap of faith one has to take in the high dollar game used memorabilia hobby is not one I think I'd ever risk.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Randall,
Why do you think that Todd McFarlane paid as much as he did for all those McGwire and Sosa balls? Just because you have alot of money doesn't mean that you have alot of common sense. BTW, I wouldn't doubt if the prices realized on some of those balls weren't the result of some spirited shill bidding IMHO.

I was the sports consultant for Guernsey's during that auction and I can guarantee you that there was no shill bidding.

[HRBAKER]

I seem to recall a case where a Frank Chance jersey that was missing the Cubs patch on the breast somehow ended up with a Cubs patch from another jersey of a minor "no-name" guy. The leap of faith one has to take in the high dollar game used memorabilia hobby is not one I think I'd ever risk.

It was a "Bear" I believe off of a Jake Pfeister jersey that was added "after initial season usage."

[Vintagecatcher]

The hype regarding the Barry Halper collection, and now the fact that his collection seems to have had "questionable items" reminds me of a quote from the 1962 film by John Ford, "The Man That Shot Liberty Valance."

"When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

Patrick

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I was the sports consultant for Guernsey's during that auction and I can guarantee you that there was no shill bidding.

Richard,
That's amazing considering where the prices went. Randall Hahn was at the live auction as a Mcgwire consultant and he told me today that the bids were all legit because he saw the live bidder bid all the way to the end. Incredible! I stand corrected...

[Giants00]

Great discussion! I am sure many of you have seen Dave Grob's piece on his worries.
if not http://www.mearsonline.com/news/newsDetail.asp?id=757

I am the owner of many pre-1955 flannels. Some I purchased at Halper sale. Like anything else, caveat emptor. There were some good, some bad. You could see in the prices a huge difference for jerseys people believed in, vs those with issues. Clearly, 19th century jerseys look to have issues.

My bad story does not come from auction, but after auction. They had an internet only auction from Soethbys. I bought a supposed 1919 white sox jersey (similar to Joe Jackson). Turned out to be total joke. Was child size, tags were way off. I have kept it as a reminder to my self of always do my work.

dan

[jbsports33]

any type of game used items can be tough, which is why I try not to deal with too much of it, I have had my share of nice items in the past. The news is very disappointing, but we have heard a lot of news this best year, I did not think I would hear from this hobby.

Jimmy

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Richard,
That's amazing considering where the prices went. Randall Hahn was at the live auction as a Mcgwire consultant and he told me today that the bids were all legit because he saw the live bidder bid all the way to the end. Incredible! I stand corrected...

I was working the phones at the live auction and Todd McFarlane was on the phone with the person next to me. The live bidder in the crowd was a group of 3 people who hemmed and hawed as the bidding kept going higher. When it came to McFarlane he took 1/2 a second to bid. I knew he eventually would wear them down and be the winning bidder.
--

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I was working the phones at the live auction and Todd McFarlane was on the phone with the person next to me. The live bidder in the crowd was a group of 3 people who hemmed and hawed as the bidding kept going higher. When it came to McFarlane he took 1/2 a second to bid. I knew he eventually would wear them down and be the winning bidder.
--

Spawn outlasted Stonehenge Ties.......

[packs]

This is terrible, and not only on Halper's side of the fence. I can't believe someone would authenticate an item for one auction house and then not stand behind his own authentication when it came to putting an item up for sale from his own auction house. I hope Lifson gave that man a refund. If not, that is troubling.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by 19cbb

I meant the Cummings in lot 202

The Cummings was definitely phony.

[jboosted92]

Dan S.

Thanks for sharing. I know sometimes collectors have been duped, are embarrassed to share. like Dave G. (mears) the more that can be weeded out, the better.

I collect GU items BECAUSE of the fact i enjoy knowing the player used them.I I would rather pay more , with the proper authentication/research/MEARS work, but know for sure.

Im more into bats, but i would rather have a bat that looks horrible but is lock/stock/barrel Used by the player, than a pretty one, with lots of leaps of faith.... just my opinion...

Originally Posted by Giants00

Great discussion! I am sure many of you have seen Dave Grob's piece on his worries.
if not http://www.mearsonline.com/news/newsDetail.asp?id=757

I am the owner of many pre-1955 flannels. Some I purchased at Halper sale. Like anything else, caveat emptor. There were some good, some bad. You could see in the prices a huge difference for jerseys people believed in, vs those with issues. Clearly, 19th century jerseys look to have issues.

My bad story does not come from auction, but after auction. They had an internet only auction from Soethbys. I bought a supposed 1919 white sox jersey (similar to Joe Jackson). Turned out to be total joke. Was child size, tags were way off. I have kept it as a reminder to my self of always do my work.

dan

[19cbb]

Originally Posted by 19cbb

I meant the Cummings in lot 202

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

The Cummings was definitely phony.

And not even close!

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Anyone got a running list of "bad" items in this sale?
-Joe Jax jersey
-Wilbert Robinson jersey
-Ty Cobb's Shotgun
-Ty Cobb diaries
-possibly every single Ty Cobb item that originated from Al Stump?
-Radbourn and ?? (Forgot the other guy) cabinet photos in street clothes

I know Denny Eskin was commenting shortly after the auction that the Mantle glove bought by Billy Crystal was a store model!

[Giants00]

I have learned so much. I am happy to share. One point made by some is that by sharing, one only helps those trying to cheat. I have one of the largest collections of dead ball and pre-war jerseys. I have hired a professional non-baseball curator to conserve and give me her opinion on fake/real/doctored. Honestly, aside from the Halper issue, most of the issues i have had are with uniforms being "improved" with new numbers or piping and then have that not disclosed. I run into people selling "unaltered" often only to find that jersey has modern flannel number. I have seen fakes. I have rejected a few jerseys, or skipped buying when i could not prove to my satisfaction that they are real. At some point, i hope to bring out a book about the collection to share wins and losses with the larger community.

[roarfrom34]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I know Denny Eskin was commenting shortly after the auction that the Mantle glove bought by Billy Crystal was a store model!

This information is incorrect.....It wasn't a store model but rather a glove used by Mantle later in his career and not "circa" 1961 (magic year) as described in the catalog.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by roarfrom34

This information is incorrect.....It wasn't a store model but rather a glove used by Mantle later in his career and not "circa" 1961 (magic year) as described in the catalog.

Denny made this statement to me clearly and in person shortly after the auction at the Robert Morris show in Pittsburgh - "it wasn't even a game used glove, it was store model!" That was a number of years ago and I leave room for the possibilty he may have gotten new information or changed his mind - but he said what he said.

-Howard

[roarfrom34]

Originally Posted by hcv123

Denny made this statement to me clearly and in person shortly after the auction at the Robert Morris show in Pittsburgh - "it wasn't even a game used glove, it was store model!" That was a number of years ago and I leave room for the possibilty he may have gotten new information or changed his mind - but he said what he said.

-Howard

I guess Denny later changed his mind


http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/...l_s_glove.html

[cobblove]

With this sad example. It makes me think of all those new cards with Game worn Ruth, Dimaggio,Mantle, Ect game used cut cards. now where is the evedence if they are in 1 cm cubes. LOL. Lots of fraud in the game used world.

[jthorn]

The one-cm rags and splinters illustrates what collectors are truly after: hope.

john thorn

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by jthorn

The one-cm rags and splinters illustrates what collectors are truly after: hope.

john thorn

I don't think so. IMO most collectors of relic cards don't have a clue as to the "leap of faith" one must take in order to collect game used memorabilia..if Topps says that's a slice of Babe Ruth's bat they believe it without question. Collectors of game used memorabilia are the ones who are after "hope," they are the ones who take the leap of faith. And when there is no hope and faith you can always say that you visited Joe Jackson's widow in the 1950s.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

To be fair the documentation in this case was bad and they destroyed it so nobody else could use it as PROOF of it being genuine.

That can be done with red marker - destroying the documentation gets rid of any nasty paper trial that could be used as evidence.

[packs]

I agree with you. It destroys culpability. If an auction house was concerned with authentication, destroying the documents doesn't seem like a reasonable action to take. The auction house should issue its own set of papers labeling the item not authentic and should keep the original papers. If you destroy them, it makes it hard for a buyer to make his case for a refund.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by roarfrom34

I guess Denny later changed his mind


http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/...l_s_glove.html

BOY was that a different Denny than the one speaking to me shortly after the auction. I guess that was before the days when he was recognized as an expert.

[19cbb]

CHIN MUSIC: More Fake Halper Uni’s; More Stolen HOF Treasures and Wills; Hot Corner News and Quiz

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=1306

[hcv123]

This story gets sadder and more frightening by the week! I'm glad I stick primarily to cards and simple memorabilia.

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by hcv123

This story gets sadder and more frightening by the week! I'm glad I stick primarily to cards and simple memorabilia.

Incredibly sad indeed.

[jboosted92]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

Incredibly sad indeed.

see the quote at the bottom??? ROFL


Barry Halper gets the Gas Face!

Comment by Kenny Powers — September 15, 2010 @ 1:44 pm

[19cbb]

Never ending story...

[barrysloate]

To be entirely accurate, Halper's collection was sold in 1999, not 1998. He consigned it in 1998.

[FUBAR]

OT-what kind of newspaper editor lets this go to print with the same statement repeated three times back to back to back..... OK we get it, MLB paid 7 million and it got donated to the Hall.

It is truly sad that Halper items were fake, it makes me wonder if he knew they were fake or if he was as gullible as the rest of us and bought fakes thinking they were legit!