PWCC's 1936 Goudey World Wide Gum DiMaggio PSA 7

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Here we go again... nothing at all new here... card has been embellished...it is obvious to anyone with decent vision let alone the foremost grading company in the world. The card is over graded it has obvious remnants of what used to be there it is not a seven and should not be a seven. And it seems some people are now on PSA's payroll!!

++This. I guess I see this as black and white. It's altered, period. don't care if it's chemicals or water. But this is not my world of buying, so can't proclaim to know how it affects the market.

I don't see how this can be good for the hobby. It has all the appearances of fraud and deception. Heck, even PSA can't figure it out.

If someone was doing this to the cards I buy (early 70's PSA 9's), I would be disgusted.

BTW, PSA pooffed the thread over there. Someone posted a really nice pair of photos showing both cards side by side. Can someone do that here within the thread?

[HRBAKER]

And who said SGC cards wouldn't cross to PSA?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Beastmode

++This. I guess I see this as black and white. It's altered, period. don't care if it's chemicals or water. But this is not my world of buying, so can't proclaim to know how it affects the market.

I don't see how this can be good for the hobby. It has all the appearances of fraud and deception. Heck, even PSA can't figure it out.

If someone was doing this to the cards I buy (early 70's PSA 9's), I would be disgusted.

BTW, PSA pooffed the thread over there. Someone posted a really nice pair of photos showing both cards side by side. Can someone do that here within the thread?

[Beastmode]

Thanks

[vintagetoppsguy]

As long as there are no long term effects to the card, I have no problem with it. And, until someone can prove it was more than just a soaking in water (which is acceptable in our hobby), then you're just making assumptions. That said, I do think the grade is a little generous. Looks more like a 6 to me.

Oh, and to blame PWCC for selling it just shows you have an axe to grind wirh Brent.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

As long as there are no long term effects to the card, I have no problem with it. And, until someone can prove it was more than just a soaking in water (which is acceptable in our hobby), then you're just making assumptions. That said, I do think the grade is a little generous. Looks more like a 6 to me.

Oh, and to blame PWCC for selling it just shows you have an axe to grind wirh Brent.

On a card whose appearance has changed that much, and in the manner it has changed, what is your basis for assigning the burden of proof to those who believe more than water is involved? From my perspective the burden is on those who claim it's only water.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

On a card whose appearance has changed that much, and in the manner it has changed, what is your basis for assigning the burden of proof to those who believe more than water is involved? From my perspective the burden is on those who claim it's only water.

Correct. IMO, disclosure is the problem here. This card should have an asterisk on it, just like Barry Bonds.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

On a card whose appearance has changed that much, and in the manner it has changed, what is your basis for assigning the burden of proof to those who believe more than water is involved? From my perspective the burden is on those who claim it's only water.

Peter,

Did you ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe that the stains in the REA scan are more pronounced than they really are? Maybe it was the scanner settings? I'm not saying that the card hasn't been cleaned. It has. But I am saying that maybe the card wasn't that bad to begin with. Maybe it was the scanner? Let me give you an example. Below is a post card that I purchased from Sterling a few months back. I wanted the post card, I was willing to live with the heavy stains. However, when I got the card in hand, the stains were barely noticeable. The only thing I could think of was that maybe Lee's scanner settings made the stains appear worse than they really are. Later, I'll scan it with my own scanner and show you the difference. You'll swear it was cleaned. But I can tell you it's the honest truth that I didnt do anything to the card at all. So, when you say "the appearance has changed that much..." maybe it really hasn't changed all that much? Again, I'm not suggesting that it hasn't been cleaned. It has. But I am suggesting that maybe the stains weren't as bad as REA's scanner made them out to be. Then again, all that sounds too complicated. I guess its just easier to blame GWTS, PSA, PWCC and everybody else, right?

[Peter_Spaeth]

David, as I said before, I hope this involves water only. But I believe that is wishful thinking at this point, especially as this appears to be not a simple matter of a stain being removed, but widespread toning.

I have not said a word about PSA.

[D. Bergin]

I don't see anything wrong with soaking cards and other stuff out of scrapbooks and albums with water. I've done it myself many times, though not with anything expensive.

If it doesn't harm the card, and releases it from it's jail. No harm, no foul.

THAT, is not a product of water restoration, distilled or otherwise. The first time, in the REA auction. Yes. No biggie.

To bump it up to a (7)? You could soak an old piece of paper/cardboard with that much toning for days, and it wouldn't come out that clean......and even if it did, the paper would have soaked too much water into it's fibers for too long to recover to it's original state. Like stretching the rubber band in your underwear for too long.

Just my opinion, but I think it's pretty "Cut & Dry"

See what I did there?

[irv]

Backs.

Personally, I am not really sure what to think of all this?
One could use various scenarios to justify either case, but with that being said, I believe there are unwritten rules (Not that any rules really technically exist anyways, that I'm aware of?) within the hobby that say anything more than a water soaking, is a fake, forgery or altered card.

I do agree, this card is not a 7, considering those still visible marks on the card, but like a lot of things I have seen from PSA in my relatively short time here, is the fact, when you think you have this grading thing down pretty good, another wrench is thrown into the mix.