"Long Tom" Hughes and "Salida Tom" Hughes Autograph Scan Request

[bender07]

Does anyone have an example of Tom Hughes (1879-1956) autograph? I'm having some issue locating one. Thanks!

[jgmp123]

Nevermind......

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by bender07

Does anyone have an example of Tom Hughes (1879-1956) autograph? I'm having some issue locating one. Thanks!

Hi Mark,
You are referring to Thomas JAMES Hughes, correct?

Too many Tom Hughes's in the MLB, but if correct, the one you are looking for is a very challenging one to find. I do not have this autograph, but I do have an exemplar to post if you are interested in seeing what it looks like or PM me.

Good luck in your search!

[bender07]

That's the guy!

[Scott Garner]

Here you go Mark! Thomas J. Hughes in all his glory

[ss]

Here's an exemplar from SABR's Deadball Stars of the American League

[bender07]

Thanks Scott and Steve! Looks like Tom wished he had one less 'M' in his name.

[bender07]

Any thoughts on pricing?

[David Atkatz]

How about an ALS?

[bender07]

There appears to be a big difference between Jan and Feb '49. Stroke maybe?

[David Atkatz]

Letter formation is quite different. They don't appear to be done by the same person. Although in each piece, Hughes identifies himself as the "correct" one; i.e. the Tom Hughes who played for Washington in 1904.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by bender07

There appears to be a big difference between Jan and Feb '49. Stroke maybe?

Boy Mark,
That sure is a big difference in his handwriting. I suspect that your stroke hypothesis is correct...

[bender07]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Boy Mark,
That sure is a big difference in his handwriting. I suspect that your stroke hypothesis is correct...

To David's point, I doubt these were signed in the same hand since the construct of the some of the letters are completely different ("S" for example). I wonder if his wife wrote the letter? I'd be interested if Jim Stinson, Jodi or Rhys have any thoughts.

[ss]

Here is an exemplar from Salida Tom Hughes. This has some similarities with David's ALS.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by ss

Here is an exemplar from Salida Tom Hughes. This has some similarities with David's ALS.

Hey Steve,
Interesting! I've never even seen an exemplar of Salida Tom.

Thomas L. Hughes aka Salida Tom Hughes is one tough autograph. He is one guy that I am looking for to complete my collection.

I'm curious about the exemplar you posted. Do you recall where the exemplar originated from? It appears to be on a baseball, or is that just the scan?
I'd really appreciate any details you could share, or please send me a PM.

Here are a couple photos of Salida Tom in all his glory. The first image is a snapshot of Tom while he was playing for the NY Highlanders. The second is a snapper of Tom on the Boston Braves.

[ss]

Sure. It was from a 1914 team signed ball in Legendary Auctions.

[Scott Garner]

Perfect! Thanks for the info Steve.
Now at least I have an exemplar for Salida Tom for my records...

[Michael B]

No one else mentioned it, but who else noticed that the signatures that Scott and Steve posted are the exact same signature? I am not talking similar, but it appears that SABR used that index card as the exemplar for their book.

[ss]

Yes, you're right, I did notice that after the fact.

[prewarsports]

My personal opinion is that the letter and the signature were not signed by the same person. My guess without having ever owned one myslef or having these in person (going PURELY off the scans) and given the similar dates of the letter/card is that the letter was dictated to a third party (wife or something) and secretarially written. Once again, just my impression from looking at three total examples, but the ball and the signature look very similar in letter formation and slant despite the 30 year gap and neither looks anything like the letter.

Just my opinion from a VERY small sample size.

Rhys

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

My personal opinion is that the letter and the signature were not signed by the same person. My guess without having ever owned one myslef or having these in person (going PURELY off the scans) and given the similar dates of the letter/card is that the letter was dictated to a third party (wife or something) and secretarially written. Once again, just my impression from looking at three total examples, but the ball and the signature look very similar in letter formation and slant despite the 30 year gap and neither looks anything like the letter.

Just my opinion from a VERY small sample size.

Rhys

Rhys,
Thanks for posting up on this.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by ss

Sure. It was from a 1914 team signed ball in Legendary Auctions.

Hi Steve,
I'm still confused...

What 1914 team is this team ball supposedly from? The signature, as noted by others on this thread, looks very similar to the 1949 GPC of Thomas J. Hughes.
If this signature is of Salida Tom this would have to be a 1914 Boston Braves ball. Is there a possibility that you could send me a link to the Legendary Auction lot from which this scan originated?

Thanks in advance for your help!

[bender07]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Hi Steve,
I'm still confused...

What 1914 team is this team ball supposedly from? The signature, as noted by others on this thread, looks very similar to the 1949 GPC of Thomas J. Hughes.
If this signature is of Salida Tom this would have to be a 1914 Boston Braves ball. Is there a possibility that you could send me a link to the Legendary Auction lot from which this scan originated?

Thanks in advance for your help!

This had me interested as well Scott. It looks like that's Salida Tom since it's a 1914 Miracle Braves ball (Long Tom didn't play in '14).

Legendary Link

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by bender07

This had me interested as well Scott. It looks like that's Salida Tom since it's a 1914 Miracle Braves ball (Long Tom didn't play in '14).

Legendary Link

Mark,
Thanks for providing the Legendary link. It does indeed appear to be a 1914 Boston Braves ball with Salida Tom.

As if having the same name isn't enough, how ironic is it that both of the Tom Hughes's have surprising similiarities in the way they sign their names?
Yikes!

That 1914 Miracles Braves ball is pretty terrific, BTW!

Happy holidays!

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

My personal opinion is that the letter and the signature were not signed by the same person. My guess without having ever owned one myslef or having these in person (going PURELY off the scans) and given the similar dates of the letter/card is that the letter was dictated to a third party (wife or something) and secretarially written. Once again, just my impression from looking at three total examples, but the ball and the signature look very similar in letter formation and slant despite the 30 year gap and neither looks anything like the letter.

Just my opinion from a VERY small sample size.

Rhys

The ball was signed by Salida Tom, NOT Long Tom, Rhys.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

The ball was signed by Salida Tom, NOT Long Tom, Rhys.

Hi David,
Just curious, is this the only example of Salida Tom's handwriting that you have ever seen, or have you seen others?
Thanks!

[David Atkatz]

It's a first for me, Scott.

[Scott Garner]

David,
Me too!

[bender07]

Why are both of these guys so rare when they were both on popular teams and lived in to the 1950's/1960's? Is it as simple as a disinterest from collectors from the '50s?

[prewarsports]

Gotcha David, thats why I posted all the caveats on I was ONLY posting on what I saw and not making any definative statements since I have never owned an autograph of EITHER in my time.

Ball aside......

The letter and the signature posted are both clearly supposed to be the same guy, but are both clearly NOT written by the same person and I do not believe a stroke is the reasoning due to the dates being so close together and a stroke that would take a person from the letter to the card in handwriting would be a fairly extreme stroke. My Father had a stroke in 2003 and it took him about 6 months to a year to be able to regain the motor skills to be able to write again and get to the point where his signature was even "shaky". In this case we are only talking about a month or so.

I believe that the first autographs "shakiness" is almost certainly due to old age and is consistant with what you see in older mens autographs. Usually stroke victims where it affects their motor skills are also shaky but the signature line itself is uneven and that is not present here, it is consistant and clean, but shaky.

I also believe that if I had to pick one as real and one as "secretarial" you would have to come to the conclusion that the clean and legible one is the secretarial because people do not choose someone with trouble writing to sign on their behalf.

Again, nothing definative as I have never owned any of the Hughes we are talking about, but I still stand behind the "hypothesis" that the first signature is authentic and the letter was written by a wife or daughter or someone else on behalf of Hughes, probably because he was getting older and could still "sign" like the note, but probably a long letter like that would have been very labor intensive and time consuming.

Just my thoughts on what I see in front of me and by no means am I privy to information that anyone else is lacking so take it for whatever that is worth.

Rhys

[David Atkatz]

I agree that the card is "more likely" genuine. But...
I can find no mention of Hughes ever having had a stroke. He lived seven more years, and in those days, a debilitating stroke was more likely to kill sooner than one is today.

All anyone seems to have is precisely two "exemplars" that don't match. Nothing definitive can be said.

[ss]

Here's my other exemplar of Salida Tom. This is supposedly from John Evers, Jr. Collection. For what it's worth.

[prewarsports]

I agree with you David. Until another example on a flat is found, it is impossible to say for certain which one is his actual autograph.

TOM HUFFORD has a Thomas J. Hughes I believe. Maybe he can chime in and clear things up for us!

Rhys

[JimStinson]

Here is an example of Thomas James Hughes , he signed his full name at bottom. Writing above is in another hand. Date 1918
__________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[JimStinson]

And here is Thomas L. "Salida" Hughes circa 1918
_____________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[JimStinson]

The first image posted in this thread (the one with the authentication sticker on reverse) is neither Thomas James Hughes or Thomas L. "Salida" Hughes, it is Thomas Franklin Hughes (1930 Tigers)
________________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[ss]

I tried to clean up the Long Tom and Salida Tom signatures a little bit. Not sure it helped much, but see what you think.

[JimStinson]

Thank you, The "key" standout to me would be the very distinctive difference in the "e" and the "g" in the last names. Which may or may not have changed over the course of twenty years. But at least with these two examples we have more than we started with and can exclude the first authenticated Hughes as neither of the two in question. Just curious what Hughes 3x5 was the first one pictured in this thread identified as when it was authenticated?
_____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[JimStinson]

Interesting Obit from 1927 about the death of "Long Tom" Hughes brother, Chicago Tribune Oct 15th, 1927
_____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[ss]

Jim -- I think the poster of the first index card exemplar was joking. Based on the document you posted of Long Tom, I'm thinking that ALS is signed by whomever filled out the top portion of the Long Tom document.

[JimStinson]

I love a good joke as long as someone didn;t pay money to have a $5.00 autograph authenticated. Am sure it was a freebie or they photo shopped the sticker
____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[bender07]

Originally Posted by bender07

Why are both of these guys so rare when they were both on popular teams and lived in to the 1950's/1960's? Is it as simple as a disinterest from collectors from the '50s?

Sorry for bumping an old thread (especially one not related to TPGs or "is this good?") but I'm still wondering why the these sigs are so scarce. Thoughts?

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by bender07

Sorry for bumping an old thread (especially one not related to TPGs or "is this good?") but I'm still wondering why the these sigs are so scarce. Thoughts?

To answer your question , the date of death is not always the primary indication of rarity , some old time players just "vanished" after their playing careers. A prime example would be Roy Castleton who died in 1967 and was an accountant most of his life yet to my knowledge there are no autographs of his that have ever been offered for sale.

Another example would be Charles Perkins who played for the 1930 A's and 1934 Brooklyn Dodgers. But died in 1988. He was "found" by an astute collector who had him sign several items , he then informed Mr Smalling (baseball address list) that Perkins had been "found" but before the info could be made public Perkins died.

Almost the same thing happened with Karl Spooner and others. Not counting guys like Clancy Smyres who just simply refused to sign anything even though his name, address and phone number were listed in the telephone directory.
_________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

I buy and sell vintage baseball autographs see my web site
stinsonsports.com

[Michael B]

I can concur with Jim on this, though my personal experience is with Olympians. I try to get signatures from any and all Olympians, especially Americans. I have had a few send back unsigned notes that they do not sign through the mail. There is a 1950's gold medalist who keeps a log of who he receives requests from. He gives one signature with a full name personalization. I sent him a copy of a new photo from my collection last year and received an unsined note "I signed for you in 1993 when you lived in ****, MA and in 1999 when you lived in (different city), MA. I now live in Virginia and it is 14 years later. On the opposite side of the spectrum one Olympian was kind enough to include a note that he had not signed an autograph since competing in London in 1948, 64 years earlier. We have since corresponded several times including me sending him a nice 8x10 b&w copy of a photo of him competing in London that is in my personal archives.

You never know how someone will react. I was talking to an Olympian (1988 gymnast) at The National three weeks ago. She is President of the MidWest Olympians chapter of the US Olympians, the alumni association of athletes. She downplayed her career as being insignificant to that of Bob Beamon and Dick Fosbury who she was hanging out with. She was surprised I asked her to sign a few index cards. Like many earlier baseball players who retire and go on with life, there are quite a few Olympians who are the same way.

[footlong]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

To answer your question , the date of death is not always the primary indication of rarity , some old time players just "vanished" after their playing careers. A prime example would be Roy Castleton who died in 1967 and was an accountant most of his life yet to my knowledge there are no autographs of his that have ever been offered for sale.

Another example would be Charles Perkins who played for the 1930 A's and 1934 Brooklyn Dodgers. But died in 1988. He was "found" by an astute collector who had him sign several items , he then informed Mr Smalling (baseball address list) that Perkins had been "found" but before the info could be made public Perkins died.

Almost the same thing happened with Karl Spooner and others. Not counting guys like Clancy Smyres who just simply refused to sign anything even though his name, address and phone number were listed in the telephone directory.
_________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

I buy and sell vintage baseball autographs see my web site
stinsonsports.com

Jim, Bill Sarni, who played for the Cards and Giants passed away around the same time as Karl Spooner, is much more difficult to find. Was he that less likely to sign in your opinion? Thanks for your thoughts.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by footlong

Jim, Bill Sarni, who played for the Cards and Giants passed away around the same time as Karl Spooner, is much more difficult to find. Was he that less likely to sign in your opinion? Thanks for your thoughts.

________________________
Sarni for reasons known only to himself just simply refused to sign after his playing days , much like Smyres , I've heard more than one personal story told by collectors who went to Sarni's house and had the door slammed in their face, Nick Polly, Oscar Georgy & Lyle Judy also fall into that category.

I once went to Lyle Judy's house and and was told by a neighbor he was in the hospital , I went to the hospital and brought a gift and he STILL refused to sign he was pleasant until he heard the word "autograph" , as I was leaving his nurse asked me why I would want his autograph , I told her and she took the 2 or 3 index cards I had into his room and asked me to wait outside. He signed them for her.
A week later his name appeared in the Daytona Beach obituaries
_____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

I buy and sell vintage baseball autographs see my web site
stinsonsports.com

[btcarfagno]

I remenber hearing that Sarni was a rather ornery fellow. I believe he had heart problems that forced him away from the game. Perhaps it was sonething related to that that soured him on his memories of the game.

The only Sarni I have ever owned was a vintage team issue photo postcard. I think I sold it last year for around $150 or so.

Tom C

[Rho68]

I just ran across this thread while searching for Salida Tom Hughes. I'm a new member so my apologies for continuing an old thread, but this is the only place I have found good information on this subject. Has anybody actually had their hands on one of his autographs or seen one for sale ? I'm so happy that you guys posted an example so I will have something to go off of ! Way too many Tom Hughes' ! I have dealt with a couple of you (Jim Stinson and Rhys) while trying to add to my 1914 Boston Braves collection and you guys have been great. If any of you run across 1914 Braves or WS items for sale I would appreciate you pointing me in that direction. I will never own a Stallings or Evers autograph unless I hit the lottery, but I'm interested in the more reasonably priced items. I'm also looking for a reasonable Dave Jolly (1957 Braves) autograph. Thanks !

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

To answer your question , the date of death is not always the primary indication of rarity , some old time players just "vanished" after their playing careers. A prime example would be Roy Castleton who died in 1967 and was an accountant most of his life yet to my knowledge there are no autographs of his that have ever been offered for sale.

Another example would be Charles Perkins who played for the 1930 A's and 1934 Brooklyn Dodgers. But died in 1988. He was "found" by an astute collector who had him sign several items , he then informed Mr Smalling (baseball address list) that Perkins had been "found" but before the info could be made public Perkins died.

Almost the same thing happened with Karl Spooner and others. Not counting guys like Clancy Smyres who just simply refused to sign anything even though his name, address and phone number were listed in the telephone directory.
_________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

I buy and sell vintage baseball autographs see my web site
stinsonsports.com

And as I found in my search... Ralph "Joe" Dawson from the 1927 Pirates. Died in 1978, but nobody knew where he was for 40+ years.