Hey, pennant guys

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

REALLY love all the colors in that collection, Greg! You'd think almost all would be just Brown. But there are so many colorful rarities there. Especially the Blue version of the Pixies on the Infield, the Purple version of the Pointy Nosed Guy, and the jet black 1944 Champs Pennant. Condition looks amazing as well!

Mark’s favorites are my favorites, as well!

I’m a little ashamed to admit I don’t think I “know” even one name on the 1944 pennant.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

REALLY love all the colors in that collection, Greg! You'd think almost all would be just Brown. But there are so many colorful rarities there. Especially the Blue version of the Pixies on the Infield, the Purple version of the Pointy Nosed Guy, and the jet black 1944 Champs Pennant. Condition looks amazing as well!

I find it odd that they made team pennants in so many different colors, including those that had nothing to do with the team. Variability in general seems to be a recent development, whether we consider baseball cards or ice cream flavors. But for some reason the Brooklyn Emmet Kelly pennant comes in 37 different colors .... not to mention the number of ‘54 Indians pennants!

[bocca001]

Those are all great Browns pennants, Greg. I like the funkiness of the mascot.

Makes me think about the book "Even the Browns," about the Browns making the World Series during the war.

Here is the blue version of the Giants pennant Rob posted earlier. I also have the white. The blue is cloth, but the white feels like it is on some kind of thin foam material. Very strange.

[perezfan]

Really cool, Marc and Rob...

Looks like perhaps the same maker that did the Giants' "Cable Car" Pennant... which I believe is only available with the orange cloth material. Those have a great early '60s charm to them. Really love both the orange and blue versions.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Looks like I picked a bad time to start collecting Venezuelan currency...

This one is still pretty tough...

Rob, that green New York Bulldogs pennant is SICK!

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Really cool, Marc and Rob...

Looks like perhaps the same maker that did the Giants' "Cable Car" Pennant... which I believe is only available with the orange cloth material. Those have a great early '60s charm to them. Really love both the orange and blue versions.

Don’t think this and the cable car are the same maker. I think this pennant might be some maker’s only offering.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Don’t think this and the cable car are the same maker. I think this pennant might be some maker’s only offering.

Interesting.... The Cable Car pennant has odd graphics. They were not "screened/painted on" in the same manner as all other pennants of the era. It looked like maybe those 3/4 examples posted above utilized the same unorthodox application.

Pretty tough to tell from a flat computer screen, but if you have both in-hand, you'd definitely know best... not that you wouldn't anyway!

[ooo-ribay]

Is this the one you're talking about?

[perezfan]

Yes... check out (and feel) the graphics. A different process was used to apply them. It is not the traditional paint/silk-screening. I cannot put my finger on what it is, and sold my only example a few years back (so I'm going from memory, which is dwindling).

Have you ever seen weird graphics like that on any other vintage early-mid 60s pennant?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Yes... check out (and feel) the graphics. A different process was used to apply them. It is not the traditional paint/silk-screening. I cannot put my finger on what it is, and sold my only example a few years back (so I'm going from memory, which is dwindling).

Have you ever seen weird graphics like that on any other vintage early-mid 60s pennant?

Whatchu talkin' about, Willis?

I checked the graphics. The "cable car" definitely feels screened, although the "San Francisco" is almost like it's dyed into the felt.

I attribute the "cable car" and these other two to the same maker, due to the font on "San Francisco."

[thetahat]

Speaking of weird screening textures ... came across this while continuing my inventory. There was apparently a brief period - perhaps 1960-61 - when the print had a velvet-like feel to it. I can date these by the picture pennants of the era, I know Phillies, Pirates, and Orioles all have it. Also this simple Phillies pennant below. Additionally, the 3D pennants have it. For whatever reason, it didn’t last long.

Oh ... and those are FANTASTIC Giants pennants ... truly works of art!

[rlevy]

sold for $211, and was wondering if anyone knew anything about it. No picture of the back nor of the tip. I assumed it was something more modern, but then saw the price it sold for. I can''t tell if it is raised felt or screen printed from the picture. I'm always trying to learn about these things. The seller didn't use the word "vintage" to describe it, but did refer to themselves as specialists in vintage items 5 times in their description.

1955 world champs.jpg

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-BROOKL...orig_cvip=true

thanks,
Rick

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by rlevy

sold for $211, and was wondering if anyone knew anything about it. No picture of the back nor of the tip. I assumed it was something more modern, but then saw the price it sold for. I can''t tell if it is raised felt or screen printed from the picture. I'm always trying to learn about these things. The seller didn't use the word "vintage" to describe it, but did refer to themselves as specialists in vintage items 5 times in their description.

Attachment 397934

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-BROOKL...orig_cvip=true

thanks,
Rick

I haven't seen that particular one, but I'm 99.9% sure it's modern.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Speaking of weird screening textures ... came across this while continuing my inventory. There was apparently a brief period - perhaps 1960-61 - when the print had a velvet-like feel to it. I can date these by the picture pennants of the era, I know Phillies, Pirates, and Orioles all have it. Also this simple Phillies pennant below. Additionally, the 3D pennants have it. For whatever reason, it didn’t last long.

I wonder if that "velvet-like" feel would be known as "flocking"? Flocking is applying very short fibers to adhesive. I have a similar pennant without the velvet feel. I always assumed mine was 1970s and should have been licensed but was not.

P.S. this is not a pennant you see very often. I can't remember the last one I saw...

[bocca001]

Nice pennant, Rob. I've never seen that one in my 5+ years of Giants pennant collecting. I know that design is more common for some teams and rare for others. The Oakland A's version sold on ebay earlier this year for decent money, and I think I recall seeing an Oakland A's version that was specifically for Vida Blue.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by rlevy

sold for $211, and was wondering if anyone knew anything about it. No picture of the back nor of the tip. I assumed it was something more modern, but then saw the price it sold for. I can''t tell if it is raised felt or screen printed from the picture. I'm always trying to learn about these things. The seller didn't use the word "vintage" to describe it, but did refer to themselves as specialists in vintage items 5 times in their description.

Attachment 397934

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-BROOKL...orig_cvip=true

thanks,
Rick

Obvious reproduction/fake....

For some reason, this one gets pawned off as vintage more often than any other Mitchell & Ness Reproduction. It is new and does not even resemble a vintage pennant. I have had to call respected Auction Houses on 3 separate occasions, about this particular pennant alone. They've all eventually taken it down, but not without a struggle.

The consignor is either just a stubborn fool who can't tell the difference, or one of the most tenacious con men in the hobby.

[bocca001]

Here is the Oakland hat pennant. If anyone has the Giants or A's and would part with it, let me know.

What other teams have this design?

[perezfan]

Click on link below, and pay special attention to the provided description....

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...orld-479760996

[rlevy]

Thanks Guys. I hadn't run across it before. I wonder if the bidders knew what they were bidding on?

Rick

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I wonder if that "velvet-like" feel would be known as "flocking"? Flocking is applying very short fibers to adhesive. I have a similar pennant without the velvet feel. I always assumed mine was 1970s and should have been licensed but was not.

P.S. this is not a pennant you see very often. I can't remember the last one I saw...

If a pennant's graphics exhibit a raised velvet-like feel, then yes this is what they marketed as a flocked pennant. The process was used by a small handful of manufacturers beginning in the 1940s. Two companies in particular made it their signature design element: Collegiate Mfg. Co. and Chicago Pennant Co.

Collegiate of Ames branded pennants made using their flocking process as "Chromtone" pennants and marketed their pennants under this snazzy name. Chipenco followed suit; except they dubbed their flocking method "A Silvet Process." Despite the two names, they made their pennants the same way. Essentially, you screen on a base layer in white that's sticky. Then you dump a bunch of white "flock," i.e., ground felt dust, atop the pennant. The flock is then cured to the pennant via a heat treatment. The excess flock is removed. Finally, the secondary colors are applied via block-out stencils to the design.

The main advantage to flocking is that the graphics will never crack like they will on a screen printed pennant, using screen printer's paints.

Today, Collegiate Pacific still utilizes this premium production method on all of their felt products.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by rlevy

Thanks Guys. I hadn't run across it before. I wonder if the bidders knew what they were bidding on?

Rick

Cannot speak for all of them... but would definitely say the winning bidder really got flocked.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Cannot speak for all of them... but would definitely say the winning bidder really got flocked.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Click on link below, and pay special attention to the provided description....

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...orld-479760996

Timely posts...I messaged a guy this morning about this pennant, which he just listed with a tidy asking price of $325 or best offer. He declares it original and having "hung in his father's office for as long as he remembers". I included these two pictures with my message, but as of yet, no change to the listing. I'd say the holograms date this to the early 90s at the oldest. The $35 asking price maybe early 2000s?

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

cannot speak for all of them... But would definitely say the winning bidder really got flocked.

lol

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I wonder if that "velvet-like" feel would be known as "flocking"? Flocking is applying very short fibers to adhesive. I have a similar pennant without the velvet feel. I always assumed mine was 1970s and should have been licensed but was not.

P.S. this is not a pennant you see very often. I can't remember the last one I saw...

Sweet Giants pennant Rob. I'm sucker for anything with stars.

Rob

[MK]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Timely posts...I messaged a guy this morning about this pennant, which he just listed with a tidy asking price of $325 or best offer. He declares it original and having "hung in his father's office for as long as he remembers". I included these two pictures with my message, but as of yet, no change to the listing. I'd say the holograms date this to the early 90s at the oldest. The $35 asking price maybe early 2000s?

I especially love the “minor moth hole damage”. Nice touch.

[ooo-ribay]

I think I was embarrassed to show my $190 lesson that red doesn't like bleach. I completely ruined that pennant. What you see is my "restoration" with red sharpie.

I found another one ($180). My wife thought I was crazy to try bleach again. To be honest, I was a bit nervous. I protected the red and did the edges. Mission accomplished! I now have a $370 pennant!

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I think I was embarrassed to show my $190 lesson that red doesn't like bleach. I completely ruined that pennant. What you see is my "restoration" with red sharpie.

I found another one ($180). My wife thought I was crazy to try bleach again. To be honest, I was a bit nervous. I protected the red and did the edges. Mission accomplished! I now have a $370 pennant!

Nice Job Rob. Looks fantastic. Do you still have the first one?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Nice Job Rob. Looks fantastic. Do you still have the first one?

I’m giving it to a buddy.

[bocca001]

Looks really good, Rob. Glad it worked out.

How did you protect the red? Did you tape something over it? Of just try to avoid getting the bleach on that area?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Looks really good, Rob. Glad it worked out.

How did you protect the red? Did you tape something over it? Of just try to avoid getting the bleach on that area?

Took a sheet protector and used painter’s tape. I pretty much stopped when it was “good enough!”

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Timely posts...I messaged a guy this morning about this pennant, which he just listed with a tidy asking price of $325 or best offer. He declares it original and having "hung in his father's office for as long as he remembers". I included these two pictures with my message, but as of yet, no change to the listing. I'd say the holograms date this to the early 90s at the oldest. The $35 asking price maybe early 2000s?

LOL. I bought this exact pennant among a few in the late 90s at the Mitchell and Ness retail store in Philadelphia. (Before I got into vintage pennants.)

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

If a pennant's graphics exhibit a raised velvet-like feel, then yes this is what they marketed as a flocked pennant. The process was used by a small handful of manufacturers beginning in the 1940s. Two companies in particular made it their signature design element: Collegiate Mfg. Co. and Chicago Pennant Co.

Collegiate of Ames branded pennants made using their flocking process as "Chromtone" pennants and marketed their pennants under this snazzy name. Chipenco followed suit; except they dubbed their flocking method "A Silvet Process." Despite the two names, they made their pennants the same way. Essentially, you screen on a base layer in white that's sticky. Then you dump a bunch of white "flock," i.e., ground felt dust, atop the pennant. The flock is then cured to the pennant via a heat treatment. The excess flock is removed. Finally, the secondary colors are applied via block-out stencils to the design.

The main advantage to flocking is that the graphics will never crack like they will on a screen printed pennant, using screen printer's paints.

Today, Collegiate Pacific still utilizes this premium production method on all of their felt products.

Great post Domer ... though I’ll add my 3D Giants and Yankees have light cracking in spots.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I wonder if that "velvet-like" feel would be known as "flocking"? Flocking is applying very short fibers to adhesive. I have a similar pennant without the velvet feel. I always assumed mine was 1970s and should have been licensed but was not.

P.S. this is not a pennant you see very often. I can't remember the last one I saw...

Never saw Giants before, very nice! Here are Expos and Phillies ...

[Domer05]

Any chance these flocked pennants from the 1970s are in fact Mitchell and Ness reproductions from the 2000s?

Other than M&N's pennants, all of which were reproductions, the only other MLB pennants I can think of made with flocked graphics were the four 3-D pennants made by Collegiate of Ames in the 1950s for the Yankees, Dodgers, Giants, and Red Sox.

I just find it odd that this manufacturer would make a flocked version for one or two teams; then screen print the others the conventional way for the remaining teams.

Additionally ... I don't recall the Dodger version of this style--which I recall being screen printed--featuring tassels. Do the tassels on the above Expos and Phillies pennants not resemble the M&N tassels we discussed last week, i.e., placed closer to the center?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Any chance these flocked pennants from the 1970s are in fact Mitchell and Ness reproductions from the 2000s?

Other than M&N's pennants, all of which were reproductions, the only other MLB pennants I can think of made with flocked graphics were the four 3-D pennants made by Collegiate of Ames in the 1950s for the Yankees, Dodgers, Giants, and Red Sox.

I just find it odd that this manufacturer would make a flocked version for one or two teams; then screen print the others the conventional way for the remaining teams.

Additionally ... I don't recall the Dodger version of this style--which I recall being screen printed--featuring tassels. Do the tassels on the above Expos and Phillies pennants not resemble the M&N tassels we discussed last week, i.e., placed closer to the center?

These Expos and Phillies pennants are not Mitchell and Ness, the material is a cheaper paper-like felt. Genuine from early-mid 70s. The printing is standard of the time.

I can definitely attest to the 1960-61 Trench pennants as having flocked graphics. I’ll see if I can take a close up.

[thetahat]

This is my 1960 Phillies picture pennant.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Wow, very interesting ads. That's exactly the kind of evidence you need to make your case.

Any idea when those ads were run??

Now we'll have to find the other six AL city/team pennants.

Ask, and ye shall receive...

https://memorylaneinc.com/site/bids/...e?itemid=53212


Scroll left-to-right underneath the picture, to see them all (as well as the newspaper ad from 1913). Solid evidence that Randall's Detroit Pennant is indeed the real deal!

[Domer05]

Wow, I had not realized that these pennants were all sewn letter--not screen printed. Historically, most promotional pennants were of lower quality since they were basically given away, i.e., no tassels, no spines, smaller sizes. As the ad claims, these really were $0.75 pennants for the day--for only $0.15.

I'm kind of surprised nobody bid for the lot. The auction house did a great job of researching this series and establishing their provenance as legitimate baseball pennants from 1913.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Wow, I had not realized that these pennants were all sewn letter--not screen printed. Historically, most promotional pennants were of lower quality since they were basically given away, i.e., no tassels, no spines, smaller sizes. As the ad claims, these really were $0.75 pennants for the day--for only $0.15.

I'm kind of surprised nobody bid for the lot. The auction house did a great job of researching this series and establishing their provenance as legitimate baseball pennants from 1913.

It will get plenty of bids... auction has not yet opened (it’s still in preview phase)

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I'm kind of surprised nobody bid for the lot. The auction house did a great job of researching this series and establishing their provenance as legitimate baseball pennants from 1913.

The auction starts tomorrow...

Oops, sorry I should refresh my screen before responding to posts...

[bocca001]

Thanks to Fballguy for making this rare Astros pennant available to me.

I was also inspired by Greg to try using google photos to organize pics of my collection. Here is what I was able to do for Houston baseball (hope the link works). I'll try to get to other stuff (e.g., SF Giants) soon.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YVosseANFrmHdHPh9

[ooo-ribay]

Great Google gallery, Marc!

I notice:

A sure bleach candidate.
The odd LH batter between the pistols.
An autograph?

[rlevy]

Back on the hunt for photos showing pennants, and the pennant guide listed the pennant shown in this photo as an LA 1960's. But this photo is from 1956 when the Brooklyn Dodgers played some of their games at Roosevelt Park, the year after finally winning the World Series. Or am I missing something? Are there different versions of a similar pennant?
1956 april world champions Roosevelt stadium enlarged.jpg
1956 or 1957 gettyimages-517762432-2048x2048 Roosevelt stadium retouched.jpg

[bocca001]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Great Google gallery, Marc!

I notice:

A sure bleach candidate.
The odd LH batter between the pistols.
An autograph?

Given all of the issues with bleaching red graphics, I just wasn't sure about bleaching that one with Orange. Every copy of that pennant I have ever seen has been pretty dingy. I may try picking up a second copy at some point and bleaching one. It's an uncommon pennant, but not super rare.

And, yes, the blue Colts does have autographs, from two relief pitchers. I'm usually not a fan of autographs on vintage pennants, but there was something I liked about that one. It reminded me of my kids getting autographs at games and being excited with any autographs, even the random relief pitchers (who are usually the only players you can get to sign during warmups these days). It was at a local antique store and I figured that I would help to keep it in the Houston area.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Given all of the issues with bleaching red graphics, I just wasn't sure about bleaching that one with Orange. Every copy of that pennant I have ever seen has been pretty dingy. I may try picking up a second copy at some point and bleaching one. It's an uncommon pennant, but not super rare.

I totally understand your apprehension, but I might tape off everything above the lower edge and go at it with a very mild solution. I used to use straight bleach but I used about a 30% solution on the 1962 pennant and still got amazing results. Did you get your restorer stuff from Amazon?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Thanks to Fballguy for making this rare Astros pennant available to me.

I was also inspired by Greg to try using google photos to organize pics of my collection. Here is what I was able to do for Houston baseball (hope the link works). I'll try to get to other stuff (e.g., SF Giants) soon.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YVosseANFrmHdHPh9

Marc great pics! Glad it worked out. Cool Keezer pennants, i.e. the two red ones, one Colts and the Astros-naut pennant. Interesting that I have the latter Astros pennant with ‘Houston’ in the font used on your Colts pennant.

Greg

[bocca001]

Greg- I see that now. Your red Astros and my red Astros have a different font.

Rob- I did end up getting some "Retro Clean" detergent from Amazon, and used it to try to clean up the Canteen Corp Oilers pennant below. It wasn't an expensive pennant and I figured that I was experimenting. I was most interested in getting off the brownish spots that looked like foxing to me. I used a small spoon to try to get the detergent/water mix on the felt, but not the paint. I ended up getting a drip on the helmet, which turned into a mess. The helmet and football are painted off-white. The detergent took the off-whie away and left just white. So, I tried to go down to the white level on the entire helmet, with mixed results. I'm ok with the results given that I knew I would probably mess it somehow. I was happy with the ability of the retro clean to significantly reduce the brown spots (on a color pennant) with just 5 or so minutes of soaking before a water rinse. I think the best solution is to try to wait for a clean pennant to become available. But some of these thin, lighter-color fabric pennants always seem yellowed, browned, and dirty.

[Fballguy]

Don't think I've ever seen a fabric Canteen Corp. pennant. I believe mine are all stiff. What did the cleaner do to the red paint? Anything?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

What did the cleaner do to the red paint? Anything?

Yeah, Marc, we need you to spray the whole thing with Retro-Clean and report back with results.

Seriously, the way it did not ruin the blue/gray felt makes me think it might be the perfect stuff for an old, red, heavily stained NY Giants pennant I own.