Has anybody done this to guard against buying forgeries?

[the 'stache]

As I begin to buy pre-war and vintage baseball cards, I'm still concerned going forward about the possibility that the cards I buy could be fakes. We know that PSA and SGC slabs can be cracked, and I've even seen discussions about PSA slabs being duplicated by thiefs. With the advances in printer technology, it's easy for these criminals to take advantage of collectors who are new in these eras of cards. And until these TPGs make it so their slabs cannot be cracked, there always exists a possibility that we're being ripped off.

Now, I know I can ask for opinions from members here, and I will take full advantage of that. If I get a card, and have any concerns about it, I will scan it, and rely on the expertise on you fine folks. But I don't want to pester you guys every time I make a buy.

So, here's what I've been thinking about doing. If I'm looking to buy a Walter Johnson T206 portrait (purely as an example), would it not be prudent for me to buy a T206 common, and keep it in my collection? I mean some common that nobody in their right mind would consider forging. Something I could compare to which ever card I buy? Under magnification, I would think that a faked card would be easily discernible, no?

Do any of you guys do this? I'd think it would be worth it for me to get a common T206, as the paper, the inking technology would be uniform from one card to another, regardless of value.

If I want to buy a nice 1952 Topps, I could add a common to my collection, and use that as my control, so to speak.

Comments??

[t206blogcom]

Bill - The more you know before you start buying, the better off you'll be.

Yes, it could be a good idea to buy some inexpensive cards to become more familiar with them and learn as much as you can via Net54 and other sources before purchasing higher end or more expensive cards in a particular set.

There's a lot of hobby knowledge on this board, through the links, search and members. Getting dubed on an item will happen to most collectors at least once. Thankfully for you, T206s and 52 Topps are two of the most popular and most collected sets as you know, so there's a massive amount of information about them.

There are plenty of T206 reprints out there and they're very easy to spot, so I don't think you'll have any issues with that. Sometimes the ones that are slightly trimmed can be difficult to spot, especially since TPGs have been known to still grade/slab them.

Feel free to reach out to me and others if you have T206 questions. I'm not the most knowledgeable t206 collector by far, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[Bpm0014]

Bill, you're thinking too much and over-analyzing it. Haha. After you buy your first couple, the reprints are pretty easy to recognize. but always feel free to ask for advice. Most people would be happy to help!

[the 'stache]

Thanks, guys. I've been doing as much reading as I can, and I'll definitely be asking for help when I buy my first few at least. The thing that concerns me is that I'll likely be jumping around all over the map, so I won't be developing any acumen for one specific year. I'm planning on doing something like this to start:

1953 Bowman Color Stan Musial
1941 Play Ball Joe DiMaggio
1956 Topps Ted Williams
1933 Goudey Lou Gehrig
1909-11 T206 Walter Johnson portrait
1955 Topps Roberto Clemente
1909-11 T206 Ty Cobb off shoulder

There will be some sets I touch on more than others ('53 Bowman, the T206 cards), and some of these will take me a while to save for as I limit myself to $5-600 a month on my hobby until my back (hopefully) gets fixed, and I can get back to work. I might just buy one a month, or every other month, as I still buy modern, too.

I've started identifying ways to buy and hold some Bowman Chrome prospect auto cards, and sell them for a profit within a few months. Anything I can gain from doing that I can roll over into my vintage buying.

[vintagecpa]

Bill, this is a great question. I personally think the PSA slab problem is far bigger than anyone is admitting to at this point. I believe it is a far bigger problem in the post-war PSA population because of the abundance of cards. The thread involving "sportscollector" is just the tip of the iceberg.

I wouldn't dream of buying a large-dollar slabbed card unless I saw a previous picture of the same card in a past auction or on VCP. I have seen too many examples where two different cards had the same certification number. Just my opinion on the subject. Good luck.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Something I could compare to which ever card I buy? Under magnification, I would think that a faked card would be easily discernible, no?
Comments??

In a perfect world, Yes.

A fake t206 under magnification should be easily discernible. Unfortunately a large majority of cards today are bought online. If you intend on buying in person this would be a fine idea though.

[the 'stache]

Jake, any card I buy online will have a return policy. If it does not, I won't even entertain buying it.

Once I have the card in hand, I'll promptly inspect it. If it doesn't pass the smell test, I'll post scans front and back sides, and ask for feedback from you guys.

I have a jeweler's loupe, black light, a technical drawing ruler, and I'll be subscribing to VCP.

Mike, I, too, have serious concerns about this being more problematic than some are aware of.

Can I assume that cards sold by reputable auction houses like REA would examine cards before being sold? I'd expect they have expertise in these cards, and would be able to spot a faked card.

[Sean]

Yes, any AH like REA would not be sell a fake card, but they may not catch one that has been trimmed, though REA would certainly attempt to do so.

I'm curious: while that is a great want list that you posted, why aren't you looking for a Babe Ruth?

[brob28]

Hi Bill,

I was advised by a few experienced pre-war collectors to buy a few common cards from reputable sources and (for lack of a better description) get cozy with the card. I am relatively new to the pre-war side (T206 focus) and can say within about 6 months I feel a whole lot more comfortable identifying good vs. bad cards. All the "equipment" you mentioned is very helpful and a must IMO. Given the fraud in the hobby I think a bit of caution/paranoia is a good thing. This board is an invaluable resource for voicing concerns and getting opinions. I like you are much more knowledgeble with pre-war cards but still feel the need ask a question from time to time. If you recall I recently asked about a '61 Yaz in a PSA holder that I just needed others to look at. Bottom line is you just can't trust the TPG holder anymore (if you ever could).

Edit: by trust I'm referring to human error and the counterfeit holders out there not commenting on ethics of TPG.

[travrosty]

buy them from an experienced dealer/fellow collector and your chances of getting burned go down to almost zero. forget psa.

[auggiedoggy]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

As I begin to buy pre-war and vintage baseball cards, I'm still concerned going forward about the possibility that the cards I buy could be fakes. We know that PSA and SGC slabs can be cracked, and I've even seen discussions about PSA slabs being duplicated by thiefs. With the advances in printer technology, it's easy for these criminals to take advantage of collectors who are new in these eras of cards. And until these TPGs make it so their slabs cannot be cracked, there always exists a possibility that we're being ripped off.

Now, I know I can ask for opinions from members here, and I will take full advantage of that. If I get a card, and have any concerns about it, I will scan it, and rely on the expertise on you fine folks. But I don't want to pester you guys every time I make a buy.

So, here's what I've been thinking about doing. If I'm looking to buy a Walter Johnson T206 portrait (purely as an example), would it not be prudent for me to buy a T206 common, and keep it in my collection? I mean some common that nobody in their right mind would consider forging. Something I could compare to which ever card I buy? Under magnification, I would think that a faked card would be easily discernible, no?

Do any of you guys do this? I'd think it would be worth it for me to get a common T206, as the paper, the inking technology would be uniform from one card to another, regardless of value.

If I want to buy a nice 1952 Topps, I could add a common to my collection, and use that as my control, so to speak.

Comments??

A good plan. Now if we could just get the TPG companies to implement exploding card holders we'd be off to the races!!! Now THAT'S what I would call "Tamper-evident"!

[Paul S]

Can you ever see the PSA registry people crossing over to BVG?

[baker85]

if it is slabbed. buy it. stop being so paranoid. it is what the holder says it is.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by baker85

if it is slabbed. buy it. stop being so paranoid. it is what the holder says it is.

I hope this was a sarcastic remark?

[baker85]

if your that paranoid, you should not collect sports memorabilia. my remark was not sarcastic. it was literal. if its slabbed, thats good enough for me. im not dumping hundreds of dollars on a card, so who is going to fake a psa 2 or 3 anyway.

[glchen]

I think as others have said, it is always useful to buy raw commons from that set, so that you can familiarize yourself with the paper, etc of that set. You will be able to discern between many of the reprints and forgeries out there. However, it's not foolproof as the sportscollector thread showed in that it will still be very difficult to determine alterations on the cards without going to a TPG. The problem with going to a reputed dealer is that there are very few who list their inventory at VCP. You will need to determine if you would be willing to pay the additional premium for that additional eye check and peace of mind.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by baker85

if your that paranoid, you should not collect sports memorabilia. my remark was not sarcastic. it was literal. if its slabbed, thats good enough for me. im not dumping hundreds of dollars on a card, so who is going to fake a psa 2 or 3 anyway.

OK, thanks for the clarification. Since anything I say after that response will not be nice I will just say...Happy collecting!!

[brob28]

Originally Posted by Leon

OK, thanks for the clarification. Since anything I say after that response will not be nice I will just say...Happy collecting!!

And that my friends, is a wonderful example of diplomacy.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by travrosty

buy them from an experienced dealer/fellow collector and your chances of getting burned go down to almost zero. forget psa.

+1

[conor912]

Originally Posted by glchen

The problem with going to a reputed dealer is that there are very few who list their inventory at VCP. You will need to determine if you would be willing to pay the additional premium for that additional eye check and peace of mind.

Isn't that what slabbing is supposed to be?

[glchen]

Originally Posted by conor912

Isn't that what slabbing is supposed to be?

I think it's fair to say that even reputed dealers are human and can miss things. However, the more experts that look at it, the better.

[insccollectibles]

There are plenty of slabbed fakes out there. You just have to be careful. My advice is to learn as much about the collection you are interested in and deal with reputable people at all times. This forum is great for advice as well. I was just introduced and have found it very useful.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Sean

Yes, any AH like REA would not be sell a fake card, but they may not catch one that has been trimmed, though REA would certainly attempt to do so.

I'm curious: while that is a great want list that you posted, why aren't you looking for a Babe Ruth?

I will. There are a lot of Hall of Famers I want. That short list I posted was just a beginning. Ruth, Christy Matthewson, Jackie Robinson, Cy Young, Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Sandy Koufax, Eddie Mathews and Warren Spahn...I could go on and on. Those were just a few of the ones I'd look to start off with.

I'd like a Goudey Babe Ruth, too. I just know some of these cards will be very expensive, and will take a few months to save up for.

[the 'stache]

Thanks for the responses. Most of you were quite helpful.

Keep them coming, guys. I'm always looking for more opinions.

[conor912]

All in all, fakes will be infinitely easier to spot than trimming or other alterations and should be the least of a novice's worries, IMO.

[Wymers Auction]

Here is a piece of advice from my dealings in antiques which I believe would apply nicely here as well. If it makes you nervous and just not quite comfortable walk away. I am not saying this is the only tool you need in the toolbox, but paying attention to your gut will save you a lot of money. I have learned this and continue to learn this the hard way at times.

[brob28]

Originally Posted by conor912

All in all, fakes will be infinitely easier to spot than trimming or other alterations and should be the least of a novice's worries, IMO.

Agreed!

[thecatspajamas]

Bill, your original premise is excellent, and if all collectors moving into a new area of collecting did something similar, there would be far fewer fraudsters lining their pockets at the expense of inexperienced collectors.

Buying the "cheap stuff" first and becoming familiar familiar with the new area you are moving into is excellent advice, regardless of whether you are dipping your toes into pre-war cards, vintage photographs, autographs, game-used, whatever. Some of the wisest advice I have heard went something like, "You're going to make mistakes early on, so isn't it better to make a mistake on a $5 purchase than on a $5k purchase?"

As with anything, the more you handle of the real thing (regardless of value), the easier it will be to recognize the fakes. The only thing I might add is, why stop with one cheap exemplar to compare to? Pick up 2 or 3 or 4, in different conditions, and then you've really got something to go from. Like I said though, I think you have a great approach, and are far less likely to be taken advantage of as you slowly edge into deeper waters than those who dive head first into the deep end before they've had their first swimming lesson.

Edited to add: I think it was David Cycleback who I'm quoting, though he may have been quoting someone else...?

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Bill, your original premise is excellent, and if all collectors moving into a new area of collecting did something similar, there would be far fewer fraudsters lining their pockets at the expense of inexperienced collectors.

Buying the "cheap stuff" first and becoming familiar familiar with the new area you are moving into is excellent advice, regardless of whether you are dipping your toes into pre-war cards, vintage photographs, autographs, game-used, whatever. Some of the wisest advice I have heard went something like, "You're going to make mistakes early on, so isn't it better to make a mistake on a $5 purchase than on a $5k purchase?"

As with anything, the more you handle of the real thing (regardless of value), the easier it will be to recognize the fakes. The only thing I might add is, why stop with one cheap exemplar to compare to? Pick up 2 or 3 or 4, in different conditions, and then you've really got something to go from. Like I said though, I think you have a great approach, and are far less likely to be taken advantage of as you slowly edge into deeper waters than those who dive head first into the deep end before they've had their first swimming lesson.

Edited to add: I think it was David Cycleback who I'm quoting, though he may have been quoting someone else...?

Thanks, Lance. Good to know I'm on the right track.

I'll probably buy a few from each different set I plan on buying. It's something I can do now while I work on building my savings back up. It will satiate my desire to get vintage cards, and help me learn at the same time.

My eventual goal is to build a website specifically for baseball cards (including scans of my collection) where a lot of the information I assimilate can be passed on to others. There are a bunch of different sites I have found helpful information from, but not one clear "go to" site where this information is readily available without some digging. I know that Net 54 has pretty much everything I could ever need, but for somebody not familiar with how a forum's search works, it might be a little more difficult finding information.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Bill, your original premise is excellent, and if all collectors moving into a new area of collecting did something similar, there would be far fewer fraudsters lining their pockets at the expense of inexperienced collectors.

Buying the "cheap stuff" first and becoming familiar familiar with the new area you are moving into is excellent advice, regardless of whether you are dipping your toes into pre-war cards, vintage photographs, autographs, game-used, whatever. Some of the wisest advice I have heard went something like, "You're going to make mistakes early on, so isn't it better to make a mistake on a $5 purchase than on a $5k purchase?"

As with anything, the more you handle of the real thing (regardless of value), the easier it will be to recognize the fakes. The only thing I might add is, why stop with one cheap exemplar to compare to? Pick up 2 or 3 or 4, in different conditions, and then you've really got something to go from. Like I said though, I think you have a great approach, and are far less likely to be taken advantage of as you slowly edge into deeper waters than those who dive head first into the deep end before they've had their first swimming lesson.

Edited to add: I think it was David Cycleback who I'm quoting, though he may have been quoting someone else...?

This is great advise.

Bill, PM me your address and I'll send you a couple 50's commons to get you started.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by conor912

This is great advise.

Bill, PM me your address and I'll send you a couple 50's commons to get you started.

Conor, that is awesome, and much appreciated. Will do.

[timzcardz]

I'd think about going a step further.

Take a common(s) and trim three sides.

You could use scissors, a razor, guillotine paper cutter, and or a roller cutter, or other means. You'll then have a source to see what the effects of various means of trimming look like, compared to the original edge.

Great! Now I'm going to have to go do this myself!

[Leon]

I have first hand knowledge that the scammers are not targeting collectors such as frequent this board, for the most part. They are selling on Craigslist, ebay and locally at shows etc... And they are doing it on the cards everyone knows about ie.... '52 Mantles, '09 Jackson rookies, '86 Jordons and Goudey Ruths etc... A lot of inexperienced people know what those are and can do a quick Google search to see they are valuable and what they sell for. Then, when they see a '52 Mantle, in a PSA 4 holder, for 5k, they jump on it. All the while the card in the slab is either fake or altered and has been put in the slab fraudulently by the scammers. If collectors get feedback from us on the board, or other hobby veterans, then they (most likely) won't get taken. It's the greed factor the scammers are counting on. I have spoken to the ringleader of a large fraud ring in the hobby for over 2 hours, within the last 2-3 days, on multiple calls. He is the one that is behind the Den Prak stuff too..but this guy is allegedly in Mexico and is very slippery. He has allegedly had a warrant for his arrest for a few years.

[brob28]

That's amazing that this guy would talk to you for that long Leon. Is he trying to convince you the cards are legit or is he actually coming clean with you? For obvious reasons I doubt he's coming clean. Can you tell us any details of the conversation(s)?

Regards,

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have spoken to the ringleader of a large fraud ring in the hobby for over 2 hours, within the last 2-3 days, on multiple calls. He is the one that is behind the Den Prak stuff too..but this guy is allegedly in Mexico and is very slippery. He has allegedly had a warrant for his arrest for a few years.

I'm amazed that this ringleader will openly talk about his fraudulent business for over 2 hours with someone he 1) doesn't know and 2) would likely help get him arrested.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

I'm amazed that this ringleader will openly talk about his fraudulent business for over 2 hours with someone he 1) doesn't know and 2) would likely help get him arrested.

Believe me guys, it's a bit surreal when talking to him. He is calculated and very good at what he does. He says he is in Mexico, 2000 miles from the border. I think there is a 50/50 chance of that. He uses a Magic Jack phone so it's not traceable. He uses a device (very common) which changes his IP address daily. He says he has never had a bank account nad has nothing in his name either. He is an identity thief and counterfeiter. He said he has hundreds of SSN's and other credit card and bank information on lots of people. He told me he does it because he has to support his lifestyle and can't make the kind of money he does, legally. One other board member has had similar conversations with him and he confirms the same things the scammer has been telling me. This scammer is the mastermind behind Edwin Arroyo, Den Prak (jailed) and some guy named Hernandez as well as others I am not familiar with. They are all in the San Diego area and close to the border. This same guy is the one who was on our board when I banned him, and was registered as John Perez....then he told me he was Den Prak, but Den was already in jail so that didn't work out for too long for him . I kept telling him he should use his smarts for good instead of bad but I don't think he cares or wants to. He is quite cordial on the phone.

[ullmandds]

I don't get it, Leon...how do you even get in contact with such a fellow...it seems so surreal?! Why would he want to talk to you?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I don't get it, Leon...how do you even get in contact with such a fellow...it seems so surreal?! Why would he want to talk to you?

He calls me or I call him. He has a new phone number every day though. As for wanting to talk to me. Well, I guess because I help run the board he feels his story is getting out or something. The other board member he talks to is a bit of a high profile person so I think he is intrigued with that aspect too. Why does an arsonist watch the fires they set? I can't get inside the mind of a person like that....but it is a bit interesting, in a morbid sort of way. United States authorities know all about this guy and my understanding is the Mexican authorities are not helpful in this matter.

[ullmandds]

Thanks...I figured he calls u or u call him...what I meant is how does one initially make such contact?! it's just bizarre!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Thanks...I figured he calls u or u call him...what I meant is how does one initially make such contact?! it's just bizarre!

Well, he was on the board for a while. Three days ago I emailed him asking him a question and the next day he called me. He has my phone number and email address (of course).

[ullmandds]

i c...thx!