Card doctoring...

[conor912]

Originally Posted by steve B

I've said this before, but I think it bears some repeating.

The entire process for authentication and grading is backwards.

Sure, there are a lot of cards that can be done by pretty much anyone. Stuff that's not particularly prone to recoloring, and is in pretty worn condition. I'd say that cards with colored borders are more likely to be recolored even in lower grades - we've seen a great example right here.

But to take the cards, and push them through faster based on value is not what makes any sense. I suspect that actually only means the cards that are expensive get their limited inspection sooner, probably to make the insurance company happy.

Even if you can't accept a system that handles higher value cards more slowly, maybe a system that triaged where effort was spent?
Send in a box of VG anything, and it goes to the new guy. Send in a bunch of cards that might be in higher grades, send them to more experienced people. Possible high grade cards with fairly high value if they are high grade should get much more scrutiny. And I mean actually taking time to be sure everything is "right" with the card.
And if something isn't "right" put the opinion of that in writing so it's clear. No "questionable" authenticity, No "we won't slab it because it's been tampered with" none of that nonsense.
It wouldn't work for less expensive cards, but ultimately all card graded should have the flaws explained, and in writing.

Steve B

Agreed. It would be like paying an appraiser to assess an antique and having him tell you it's fake but refusing to tell you why he thinks so. If you're happy with that scenario, then grade away.

[drcy]

My advice was just for a single new collector if he asked.

Just one thing that I would do hobby wide is to estimate is the margin of error just in assigning the grade, for example as exemplified as through all those resubmissions to get a different grade, and put that margin of error on the label. In science, identifying and expressing the margin of error is integral and essential when communicating results. If a label said "ExMt 6 with margin of error of 5%" that would change things quite a bit.

If with numbers people, this margin of error is well known and talked about, if indirectly. There are those who resubmit to get a different grade, people who say "Do you this could get a bump?" and people who say one card looks better than another though in the same number grade. All I'm saying this margin of error should be explicitly expressed on the product for everyone to see, and for this margin of error be expressed in all calculations and considerations.

Everything-- in science, life and grading-- has a margin of error. There is nothing wrong with that. The problem is when people, and a system, act as if there is no margin of error.

And would that margin of error have to be reflected in the registry numbers? Of course.

Would it change pricing on many cards and all that? Probably, but so be it. But much of the hobby is based on bad math and statistics.

Do I think this will happen? Of course not. The collectors would fight this more than the graders. PSA registry people would probably have a stroke.

Another practical and specific fix would be there should be formal grades for photographs. And I don't say that as some vague, generalized rule, but for specific reason.

[packs]

Personally I would prefer that TPA's simply authentic cards and let the buyer decide what grade the card is to them. Assigning numbers is foolish to me because every collector should be able to determine what a card is worth to themselves without some phony number getting involved. And we've seen time and time again that a card can be "Good" one day, returned for another look, and come out "Very Good" the next despite nothing changing. In that scenario authentic cards that have been trimmed will sell for the same price as high grade cards and I think that price will be closer to what authentic cards sell for now than it would to the PSA 9 price. And cards that are in lower "collector" grades will likely balloon in value under that system.

[drcy]

If you get an artifact carbon dated or thermoluminesciently tested (another method for dating), the result will include the carefully calculated margin of error with the result. Why do they do this? Because they are scientists (one of the main carbon dating places is at the University of Arizona physics department) and care about accuracy in their results.

What does this margin of error in the result force you to do? It forces for you to not just rely on that result, but look at the items from different aspects. For example, thermoluminescence testing, which is a highly advanced atomic testing of the material, often has a large margin of error. The margin of error means it doesn't pinpoint a year or decade or even century, but tells you that the material is either centuries old or new, which is very important information for identifying an item as authentic or a fake. But the authenticator has to consider other aspects in pinpointing the item and its date, such as the style, history, etc. In fact, what often happens with expensive and rare ancient relics and artifacts, the art historian or whomever looks at all the other stuff-- look, style, research-- to judge the identity and age, then the thermoluminescence test is done as the final check, or piece in the puzzle. The historian says this vase appears to be a 14th century Chines, and the thermoluminescence test says "We can't tell you the century, but it is indeed centuries old and not new."

Similarly, if the graded card label includes a margin of error with the grade, that will force the collector to consider other things-- usually how the item looks. This, of course, is what many people on this board already do. But I would like this margin of error to be explicitly be expressed and calculated throughout the entire hobby.

Would this approach blow up, or at least significantly alter, the baseball card hobby calculations that don't express and incorporate the margin of error? Yes, but this just says those numbers are bad. That physics professor at the University of Arizona would say you have to include the margin of error in the carbon dating result, and subsequent consideration of that result. He would say you can't not do it, and not doing it would be scientific malpractice.

So, as I said, if it were up to me, a grading margin of error would be estimated and placed right on the front of the label with the grade, and the margin or error be integrated into all hobby number calculations. Would this significantly alter present calculations such as the registry and some price guides, and alter much hobby perception/consideration of grades? Yes, but that's because those current calculations are perceptions/considerations of grades are currently off.

An example of a change in consideration would be a collector saying "The label says NmtMt 8 +/- 18%. I guess I'd better look at the card itself and see what I think." Oh, the horror, the horror. How would the baseball card industrial complex survive such thinking?

[rainier2004]

A major difference between "collecting" today and before the TPGs was the old right of passage. We use to go to shows, hold cards, smell cards and talk to people about said card. This was the education you got, the more people you conversed with = the more you learned. Even with TPGs this is still possible even with far less shows to do this.

Some people want specifics on what to look for and that is a great first question. But every issue is different, judging a 1956T is far different than a Cracker Jack. I have collected CJs, PCs, e107s, t205s, t206s, e120s, e121, 33G, 34G, 40PB, n172s, n28s, Topps, Bowman, n300s etc...they all differ. On every single issue I have talked to more experienced people on what to look for, tips, giveaways and anything I could learn...and to me, that is all part of the hobby. This networking is all part of the foundation on what we did and some continue to do.

TPGs have allowed people to skip educating yourself and relying on the flip...the flip has become the commodity in many instances instead of the card. I don't care if its raw or graded, I will analyze it myself and make an informed decision based on many different factors including seller, past experiences and if I do not know or feel comfortable I will contact someone. Take the time to reach out, 99% of the time you will get an answer with details that you could have never known w/o reaching out.

It becomes about being self-sufficient and realizing when someone is trying to get one over on you whether they know it or not. Pick a grade, who cares, just EDUCATE YOURSELF! Take that time, make those connections, REACH OUT! If anyone wants to know what to look for in CJs, write me, any time, I will respond. Just b/c its slabbed doesn't mean its any good or perfect, don't make the flip the commodity...collect the cards.

Sorry if any of this comes off as condescending or arrogant, its not intended and this is how it was done pre-1991. EDUCATE YOURSELF BROTHERS!

[packs]

A margin of error doesn't really have a place in card collecting. You would have to take it upon yourself to decide that a grade is subjective. I don't need a guy to tell me my card is in "Fair" condition with a margin of error between "Poor" and "Very Good".

[Rich Falvo]

How can you have a margin of error on an opinion (which all that a grade is, ultimately). How would that work - "I believe the grade is a 6, but my opinion may be wrong" ?

I could see the authentic vs non-authentic determination having a margin of error, but not the grade.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by packs

A margin of error doesn't really have a place in card collecting. You would have to take it upon yourself to decide that a grade is subjective. I don't need a guy to tell me my card is in "Fair" condition with a margin of error between "Poor" and "Very Good".

Many collectors, including many on this board, are already keenly aware of the margin of error and look at the cards themselves when pricing and buying. Just as many autograph collectors educate themselves, and don't rely only on a TPA LOA because they know TPAs make mistakes. That was an integral part of my advice to the proverbial new collector, along with buy cards that look nice to you, keep mid/lower grade cards and bypass that Gem Mint 10 nonsense.

However, doing such things as registry numbers charts and rankings are, quite simply, a joke. There's nothing wrong with it as a game, but people actually take it as serious and it effects values and prices.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

A major difference between "collecting" today and before the TPGs was the old right of passage. We use to go to shows, hold cards, smell cards and talk to people about said card. This was the education you got, the more people you conversed with = the more you learned. Even with TPGs this is still possible even with far less shows to do this.

Some people want specifics on what to look for and that is a great first question. But every issue is different, judging a 1956T is far different than a Cracker Jack. I have collected CJs, PCs, e107s, t205s, t206s, e120s, e121, 33G, 34G, 40PB, n172s, n28s, Topps, Bowman, n300s etc...they all differ. On every single issue I have talked to more experienced people on what to look for, tips, giveaways and anything I could learn...and to me, that is all part of the hobby. This networking is all part of the foundation on what we did and some continue to do.

TPGs have allowed people to skip educating yourself and relying on the flip...the flip has become the commodity in many instances instead of the card. I don't care if its raw or graded, I will analyze it myself and make an informed decision based on many different factors including seller, past experiences and if I do not know or feel comfortable I will contact someone. Take the time to reach out, 99% of the time you will get an answer with details that you could have never known w/o reaching out.

It becomes about being self-sufficient and realizing when someone is trying to get one over on you whether they know it or not. Pick a grade, who cares, just EDUCATE YOURSELF! Take that time, make those connections, REACH OUT! If anyone wants to know what to look for in CJs, write me, any time, I will respond. Just b/c its slabbed doesn't mean its any good or perfect, don't make the flip the commodity...collect the cards.

Sorry if any of this comes off as condescending or arrogant, its not intended and this is how it was done pre-1991. EDUCATE YOURSELF BROTHERS!

totally agree!

[packs]

I agree about the registry. That's why I'd love to see TPG's simply authenticate cards and leave it at that. The numbering system, as discussed, is so flawed that it's become nothing more than a marketing scheme when it was supposed to standardize the hobby. There is no standard though because cards get different grades on different days. I say do away with them entirely and simply authenticate.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I agree about the registry. That's why I'd love to see TPG's simply authenticate cards and leave it at that. The numbering system, as discussed, is so flawed that it's become nothing more than a marketing scheme when it was supposed to standardize the hobby. There is no standard though because cards get different grades on different days. I say do away with them entirely and simply authenticate.

Yes but you might as well also say do away with nuclear weapons, or guns, or whatever. It won't happen.

[swarmee]

The registry system is also the "tide that lifts all boats" and is the reason the card market is booming, in my opinion +/- 4 points.

[drcy]

"Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked." - Warren Buffett

[packs]

The registry is artificial though. A 10 could be a 7 tomorrow because there's no consistency day to day. Collectors should decide what cards are worth paying for.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

The registry is artificial though. A 10 could be a 7 tomorrow because there's no consistency day to day. Collectors should decide what cards are worth paying for.

A 10 will always be a 10 because collectors will always pay for the flip.

[ALR-bishop]

Some collectors apparently do that

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's almost certainly more than that. They've done 29 million things, so that percentage means only about 3000 bad things getting through.

Considering that it's done by people, that percentage would mean they're doing a pretty good job.

Steve, over .0001% of 29 million things is not 3,000, it's 30.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Steve, over .0001% of 29 million things is not 3,000, it's 30.

DOH! I took it as 1/10000, and forgot the percentage.

My math is bad, but the right math makes the margin of error a lot smaller.

I'm really sure more then 30 items have made it through PSA that really shouldn't have.

[egbeachley]

I know you did. But as they say, technically correct is the best kind of correct.

I'm not sure what he meant by we would be in deep **** valuewise if it was proven that 30 cards got through undetected. I'm pretty sure that NM/Mint collectors would have over 10% altered cards in their collections.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have no idea about percentage, but with the number of people I know to be card doctors, and the number of years they have been doing it, and some sense of how many cards they work on, it adds up.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by robkas68

Although card doctoring has been around for decades the original motivation was mostly for the personal satisfaction of the collector. Obviously there was some money motivation 30 years ago, but nothing like today. And I cannot help but see the irony that the grading companies offer an expensive solution to a problem they helped create. (I'm an attorney and we are good at creating expensive solutions to problems we created too). I have a 1956 Mantle psa 6 and a psa 9. (the 9 by the way is overgraded and about as attractive as the 6).

30 years ago the reaction to the cards would be those are two nice Mantles, I'll give you an extra $20 for that one. Now that psa has dictated that the two cards have subtle differences that justify an insane $30,000 difference in price, there is powerful motivation for plastic surgery.

I collect mostly vintage, but last year I put together a 1986 Fleer basketball set all psa 8. I paid $11 for my psa 8 Johnny Moore card. Somebody paid over $15,000 for a psa 10. Can you honestly tell me that the small differences in the card of a journeyman player justify a $15,000 price difference. Especially since if we broke the cases and resubmitted they might both come back a "9".

A HUGE +1 there! And that's why I try to go after ultra-rare cards of stars and HOF'ers,rather than ultra-high grade ones. But collectors are by nature competitive, even if only with themselves, but especially so in striving to have something "better" than the next guy. It's in our DNA. As a consequence, for modern cards, "better" means a higher grade (or a card that is supposedly such). You are absolutely right--the actual difference in the cards bearing different grades many, many times can't come even remotely close to justifying the difference in prices paid. But those who collect cards with the "magical" "9" or "10" on their TPG holder believe that possessiing the one with the higher TPG grade gives them bragging rights. Collectors like me simply think they're wasting a lot of money on the holders and slips within them. I'm an attorney also, by the way--40 years of practice, primarily in personal injury law at the trial level, and both civil and criminal appeals, as well as petitions for writs of habeas corpus in the federal court system.

May your collecting bring you joy in any event,

Larry

PS: I believe it was Mastro that said that any pre-war card graded higher than a "7" had been tampered with. Buyers of TPG "8's" and "9's" from that era--caveat emptor!

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

If PSA gets caught in a major scandal that send hoards of customers away, all the values collapse. This could be a thesis, but just imagine that you woke up tomorrow and every PSA card was 10 cents on the dollar...

IMHO, Steve, that will never happen because I believe demand is like the step pyramid for scarce to downright rare, significant vintage cards. If the upper crust of the demand supporting the price falls off, there is that next layer only a small step down to catch it. Contrast that with the demand for the cards of the young, current, but unproven for the long run phenoms. That demand, creating current high prices, is much more like an extension ladder, swaying in the breeze, susceptible to falling over and all the way down when the new "superstar" proves himself to be fatally flawed or simply overrated.

Good luck in you collecting, and hopefully Michigan will eventually give the Spartans and Oh how we hate Ohio State better competition in the future!

Larry

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

PS: I believe it was Mastro that said that any pre-war card graded higher than a "7" had been tampered with. Buyers of TPG "8's" and "9's" from that era--caveat emptor!

And he probably had something to do with more than one of them. I don't doubt that assessment. I'll never forget one of the first times I realized all was not as it appeared. It was a group of Allen and Ginters, all graded 8. They looked skinny as hell. Another formative experience was a dealer friend observing that certain guys who bought his well-centered EX and EX MT cards at shows seemed to have the same cards in 8s at the next show.

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by packs

Personally I would prefer that TPA's simply authentic cards and let the buyer decide what grade the card is to them. Assigning numbers is foolish to me because every collector should be able to determine what a card is worth to themselves without some phony number getting involved. And we've seen time and time again that a card can be "Good" one day, returned for another look, and come out "Very Good" the next despite nothing changing. In that scenario authentic cards that have been trimmed will sell for the same price as high grade cards and I think that price will be closer to what authentic cards sell for now than it would to the PSA 9 price. And cards that are in lower "collector" grades will likely balloon in value under that system.

I understand your sentiment, but if cards were only to be graded as "A", then we are right back to the same old story of cards that look high end but have a hiden flaw that is not disclosed. I got really tired of dealers telling me my cards were junk when I was selling. Only to turn around and then resell them as high end.

I believe grading is extremely valuable for exposing those hard to see flaws. When you see a sharp lower graded card, you know there is something lurking. Now if the flaws of the card were also included on the flip, then maybe just an "A" grade would work. However those flips would need to be pretty big to accommodate that and slabs would increase in size as a result.

[frankbmd]

I find this thread troubling on a personal level, for some of you might consider me both a “card” and a “doctor”. It is amusing though to expand the concepts related to the hobby into other fields. The proposal of listing flaws on the flips instead of a numerical grade, I find interesting for two reasons.

First consider if you will old people instead of old cards. As a group we would be spared the humiliation of being graded 1, 2 or 3 with nary a 10 in sight in our retirement enclaves. Our flips would be too large to lug around though and too long to read for practical social events. I suppose we could carry credit cards with embedded chips and have access to ubiquitous chip readers though.

Second consider the field of Plastic Surgery, the true “villains” of medicine. Restoration, augmentation and flaw ablation is their bailiwick. In the world of “people flips”, their work is judged by third party graders, spouses and mirrors.
If your wife was a 4 pre-operatively before the face lift or boob job, and considers herself a 6 after the procedure, the plastic surgeon is successful and rewarded. Maybe it should just be called “Grade Bump Surgery”.

The same type of analogy could be applied to your automobile susceptible to both fender benders or a total loss as the result of an accident. The total loss or “beater” ends up in the collection at a junk yard. The fender bender though is rewarded with a trip to the Body Shop, where the goal is the ultimate grade bump to 10. Corners are restored, centering or at least symmetry is achieved and inevitably a little color is added, before delivery.

So, whether graded or not, fear not for your cardboard collection. Just remember that when purchasing cards, always remember to utter the following.


SHOW ME THE CARDFAX


But don’t ask the ladies about their plastic surgery or look for their scars, just compliment them on their beauty.

[DeanH3]

Where's Wonkaticket when you need him? 😃 I know there could be a great photoshop image that could be inserted here. 👍

[ValKehl]

"SHOW ME THE CARDFAX

But don’t ask the ladies about their plastic surgery or look for their scars, just compliment them on their beauty."

Sage advice, Frank!

[ullmandds]

Frank you’re hilarious!!

[MattyC]

Great writing there, Frank!

I'm sure some slabbed cards out there in both low grades and high grades have been "improved." End of the day, for this collector, it comes down to the old saying, "It's a foolish dog that barks at a flying bird."

If I like a card, I'll buy it, then enjoy it. Nice, happy, and simple. No point in wondering, let alone fretting, over where she was before meeting me She'll never tell me the truth anyway!

[Touch'EmAll]

Before third party graders, perhaps the amount of doctored cards that were purchased by unsuspecting souls was even higher.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Great writing there, Frank!

I'm sure some slabbed cards out there in both low grades and high grades have been "improved." End of the day, for this collector, it comes down to the old saying, "It's a foolish dog that barks at a flying bird."

If I like a card, I'll buy it, then enjoy it. Nice, happy, and simple. No point in wondering, let alone fretting, over where she was before meeting me She'll never tell me the truth anyway!

To each his own, but I am 180 degrees the opposite, I do everything in my power to avoid buying doctored cards. I am sure I am not 100 percent successful, though.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Great writing there, Frank!

I'm sure some slabbed cards out there in both low grades and high grades have been "improved." End of the day, for this collector, it comes down to the old saying, "It's a foolish dog that barks at a flying bird."

If I like a card, I'll buy it, then enjoy it. Nice, happy, and simple. No point in wondering, let alone fretting, over where she was before meeting me She'll never tell me the truth anyway!

No doubt mid and low-grade cards are also doctored. One reason why I recommended collecting lower grade cards is, while a missed ink spot or erasure-mark is calamitous value-wise of a graded 9 or 10 card, its relatively no big deal with that grade Fair T206.

If you've got $20,000 invested in a specific grade (9 versus 8), all this stuff is something to keep you up at night. If it's a low grade T206 common, you'll sleep just fine. I joke that my mom's so cheap that even if something turns out to be a fake she underpaid.

My mom has a large painting on her wall, and after looking up close at it I informed her that it was a reproduction. She said "That's okay. I only paid $3 for it at a garage sale."

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

Unless you had that incontrovertible evidence, naming names would only get you into an argument.

Many of us have provided concrete examples (before and after pics) of cards slabbed by the TPA's - one of my examples showed the same altered card slabbed and re-slabbed by multiple TPA's as an experiment (not mine) to see what they could get away with. The answer was: 'anything'.

The result of my posting was that I was labeled a trouble-maker and basically told to shut up by more than one Net54 member. As long as there is money to be made, none of those who are profiting want to hear about it. Who's profiting? Most of those who collect slabbed cards.

The same is true on the autograph side, which is why you will see autograph experts going after the low-hanging fruit (blatant forgers who set up their own TPA's, which none of us profit through) and leaving the big TPA's alone. As long as the money keeps flowing everyone is happy.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Many of us have provided concrete examples (before and after pics) of cards slabbed by the TPA's - one of my examples showed the same altered card slabbed and re-slabbed by multiple TPA's as an experiment (not mine) to see what they could get away with. The answer was: 'anything'.

The result of my posting was that I was labeled a trouble-maker and basically told to shut up by more than one Net54 member. As long as there is money to be made, none of those who are profiting want to hear about it. Who's profiting? Most of those who collect slabbed cards.

The same is true on the autograph side, which is why you will see autograph experts going after the low-hanging fruit (blatant forgers who set up their own TPA's, which none of us profit through) and leaving the big TPA's alone. As long as the money keeps flowing everyone is happy.

As I said, if a rule was instituted that the grading margin of error had to included next to the grade on the label, the card owners would protest far more than the graders. It's known as "protecting their investment."

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by drcy

As I said, if a rule was instituted that the grading margin of error had to included next to the grade on the label, the card owners would protest far more than the graders. It's known as "protecting their investment."

Will never work. TPAs will Consider grading for commons, diluting the grading populations, and "prove" that less than 1% are altered. Then all slabs will say the grade is accurate with 1% margin of error. Kinda understood already since they do have a guarantee reserve on their financial statements.

Just like the law passed some years ago that certain companies must give employees 90-days notice if there may be a plant closure. Since then all employee paychecks give notice that there may be a plant closure.

[drcy]

I know it would likely never happen, but duly note that I said put the margin of error on the label, not a different number. The 1% example you use isn't the margin of error, it's a different calculation. That someone calls his dog a cat doesn't make it a cat.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by drcy

As I said, if a rule was instituted that the grading margin of error had to included next to the grade on the label, the card owners would protest far more than the graders. It's known as "protecting their investment."

That's rich. "Grading margin of error" would mean that if I send in a 6 it comes back a 5.5 or 5 and that's okay. It means that if a big auction house or a popular dealer sends in a 6, it comes back as a 7 and that's okay.

But I wasn't referring to margin of error in grading. I was referring to ignoring doctoring of cards for some submitters.

[rainier2004]

How about we just stop trusting flips and make educated decisions for ourselves? It all comes down to capitalism in the end...I for one try to avoid doctored cards and whether its graded or not matters very little in my assessment.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

How about we just stop trusting flips and make educated decisions for ourselves? It all comes down to capitalism in the end...I for one try to avoid doctored cards and whether its graded or not matters very little in my assessment.

I would turn this around and say for many folks, particularly newer collectors as I mentioned, their attitude is, "whether it's altered or not matters very little in my assessment."

When I see the praise being lavished on people I know to be card doctors or who are outlets for card doctors, because they deliver a card timely, it makes me kinda sick sometimes. Well, that's overstating it, but still.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would turn this around and say for many folks, particularly newer collectors as I mentioned, their attitude is, "whether it's altered or not matters very little in my assessment."

When I see the praise being lavished on people I know to be card doctors or who are outlets for card doctors, because they deliver a card timely, it makes me kinda sick sometimes. Well, that's overstating it, but still.

Peter, I think only time in the hobby can fix that. I know I have spent countless hours listening to stories. There are more altered cards in high grade holders than anyone wants to admit. If you collect high grade pre-war you should be aware you probably have some altered cards (*in TPG holders). It is a fact. But hey, that card doctor ships fast!!

[swarmee]

And some of them post on this website with no issues. If I ran the board, they would be "gone with the suspension."

[Leon]

Originally Posted by swarmee

And some of them post on this website with no issues. If I ran the board, they would be "gone with the suspension."

Ok, so who are they?

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by swarmee

And some of them post on this website with no issues. If I ran the board, they would be "gone with the suspension."

Could you please share? I'm sure we would all love to hear that and Leon already seems interested.

[swarmee]

Gone With The Stain... Dick Towle.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ighlight=towle

I thought the clue would be more than obvious. Guess I was wrong.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Some of what he does I guess you could argue about, but he admits he takes out wrinkles.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Gone With The Stain... Dick Towle.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ighlight=towle

I thought the clue would be more than obvious. Guess I was wrong.

Hmmm..I am sort of slow......In retrospect I agree. Gone. Next?

[swarmee]

Much appreciated; I always thought it was bizarre he was allowed on this site.

[irv]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

1. Any foreign substance removed from any card is an improvement and need not be mentioned to a buyer.

I don't consider this restoration, such as removing glue residue on the back, but it should at least be pointed out to the buyer. Most buyers IMO are OK with this.

2. Anything added to (like color) a card is fraudulent. Or building up corners. Horrors!

Agreed. How the hell do they rebuild corners? That is FREAKY!

3. Nobody should trim cards. It's not the same card.

Agreed.

4) If ironing out creases is successful, fine.

Hell no! Sometimes these creases or wrinkles can reappear many months or years down the line (when the card is sitting inside a PSA 8 case!)

I had no idea that was being or could be done either! I am curious how hard it is to see/tell that this has been done to a card?
My gut tells me, after a bit of dirt/staining has been purposely added to hide this restoration, it is ver hard?

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have no idea about percentage, but with the number of people I know to be card doctors, and the number of years they have been doing it, and some sense of how many cards they work on, it adds up.

Great thread, Peter, but disheartening at the same time.

I appreciate the education lesson, however.

Thanks for starting it.

[drcy]

Built up corners are straightforward to identify.

[swarmee]

Coming from a guy with 30 years experience... right? If the corners are rebuilt with modern paper, those will flouresce under a black light. However, ones built using donor T206 cards would not, based on the article above. Under a high power microscope, it might be easy as well. But to the regular Joe buying cards, it's not really a thought I have when purchasing cards. I just assume it hasn't been done and probably won't look for it.