My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ?

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Posted By: barry arnold

many thanks, Ted.
you're mighty kind to send the information.
my nephew has brought a Lexmark over here already to help the old fella(me),
so cross your fingers for me that i don't seem too antiquated for these high
tech lessons.
happy new year to you and yours, Ted!
Barry and Margaret

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

yes ,those with the unique backs. Walter Johnson WAS in that caramel set. Nice post & comments.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

DAN

The E91-3 set does indeed have a Walter Johnson in it. I don't have a Johnson, but shown here
is a card from this series......this series was the last one in this set to be issued (1910 or 1911);
and, includes players from the Washington team. The artwork on the front of each card is of a
"generic" style....that is totally different from the fronts of all the other E-card sets.

Do we know where this Caramel set was produced ?

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

Ted-I had a few over the years and Iam sure someone has one here.
...so let us see it guys.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I started an E91 thread so we could get a Johnson card displayed.

And, Leon responded with his Johnson.

TED Z

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Interesting thread indeed. Is it possible that the link beteween Plank and the Pennsylvania produced sets is a sportswriter? I have read more than a few times that card producers used local sportswriters to bird dog and sign players for them. The geographical connection with Plank might be explained by this.

On a related topic, is there a thread on production methods of T206 in the forum? Too late to search right now (off to bed after this) but would be very interested in that topic.

Dave

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

DAVE.....and welcome to the club.

I like your style....of thinking, that is. You bring up a new factor that we have not considered.
I have heard the same thing about sportswriters in the '50s and Sy Berger of Topps fame.

In the Plank situation, I could very well imagine that the local sportswriters of the Philly news-
papers played a role in this mystery.

However, I still fall back on my original contention that the Philadelphia based American Caramel
Co. were in the market 1st (prior to T206) and there was no way that Am. Car. was going to let
anyone else print their hometown hero....Eddie Plank.

For a really detailed source of information on the T206 set you need to contact Scot Reader, who
has recently published an excellent book on this set, titled...."Inside T206".

It is available on line.

Thanks for your insightful response to this Thread.

TED Z

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Posted By: JimB

I am late to this thread, but find Ted's theory very interesting. I would like to tweak it a little bit and see what you all think.

I think Plank was not in the T206 set because he did not want his image associated with tobacco, much like Wagner. This is supported by his lack of a presence in a number of the tobacco issues of the day like T205, T202, T207, T3, etc. which were all issued when he was a major star. In contrast he was included in virtually all of the caramel set of the time, and they were much smaller productions.

Ted's theory however can add a dimension that makes this all more understandable. If he were 100% correct, then presumably Bender 150s and Davis 150s would be as rare as Plank 150s. I think Planks were pulled at roughly the same time as Wagners for the same reason. The lack of other Philadelphia players in the 150 series could be explained by Ted's theory. Maybe Bender and Davis did not go along with it.

When the 350 series was released, perhaps whatever held back other Philadelphia players was lifted and they were all included in the 350 series. Mistakenly somebody at ATC included Plank in the new group, unaware that his exclusion from the 150 series was for an entirely different reason, his reluctance to be associated with tobacco. When it was realized what happened, the Plank 350 was pulled immediately, like it had been before.

This is an elaborate speculation, but I think it makes some sense.
Thoughts?

JimB

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I still like Ted's thought. Plank was college educated, and contracted with American Caramel, the hometown boys, first. I think he honored his candy contract. He might not be in the other tobacco stuff because he was still ticked with ATT's presumptuous use of his likeness in T206, and that carried over to the other ATT issues.

Back then it was just like it is today, even when they say it isn't about the money, it is.

Honus is on that Leaf card loading up a chew into his jaw. I think for him it was about money, too. Not about tobacco. Besides, the stigma on tobacco was much less back then. I'll concede it had a negative view, but nowhere near like today.

I think Ted nailed it. Plank and AC folks fussed at ATT folks, and that is what had the card pulled.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- but Plank is in T204 and T208, so your theory doesn't entirely hold up.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Ahhh.... and was Fireside and Ramly part of the ATT??? There might be something to that, Barry.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Good point Frank. Maybe piece by piece the answer is coming.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JimB

I think you just "echoed" what I said in my lengthy 1st post when I initiated this Thread. And, you added
the "tobacco twist" to it. Well, I don't agree with the "tobacco factor". Please scan back to my post here
on Dec 19th (9:01 AM)....I don't believe that data is mere coincidence. As Frank W noted, Eddie Plank was
a "cut above" most players of that time and perhaps he had a sense of loyalty to his home state products.
I live in Pennsylvania and I can tell you that we love our sports teams and our home grown products.

And, let's not forget the Connie Mack factor....I'll throw this into the mix, just to inject some more thought
provoking energy.

JimB.....And furthermore,

I think the anti-tobacco Wagner story has been overblown over the years. Wagner certainly discredits this
by being in all 3 T-brands of the T216 set. Also, in the 1955 Pirates Yearbook he is pictured with a lit cigar
in his hand.

And consider this, I will paraphrase the myth......"he didn't want to endorse Tobacco products so that the
youth of America would not be encouraged to use Tobacco (in any form)". We all know teenagers, and this
kind of publicity makes no impact on most of them....in 1909....and nowadays.

Forget the Tobacco myths....and dismiss the "broken plates" stories, let's do some real investigative research
into why certain things are the way they are.....and therefore, cost us a lot of our hard earned $$$$$'s.

Gee, I'd love to have a Wagner and a Plank for my sets and not pay more than the cost of Johnson or CYoung.

TED Z

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Posted By: JimB

I was under the impression that the tobacco explanation was confirmed by a period newspaper where Wagner explained it. Didn't he even give $10 offered to the ATC guy hired to sign up ballplayers for that rate so that the ATC guy would not be punished for his lack of desire to be represented selling cigarettes.?
JimB

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Posted By: JimB

The T204 inclusion is puzzling, but T208 and T216 were so obscure that it is very possible he was unaware of those brands in Philadelphia or knew that his image was used.
JimB

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Posted By: JimB

What about my question as to why Bender and Davis are not as rare as Plank in the 150 series?
JimB

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

This is a "quickie" as I have to go out......1908 (when the T206's were on the drawingboard) Bender had
a losing season and Harry Davis was having a mediocre year. So, perhaps that is the best answer I can
provide you for now.

But, once again I draw your attention to my initial post on this Thread. Please observe the Am. Caramel
roster of A's (12 players) vs the T206 roster (3 players). That fact is the starting basis for my premise in
this entire presentation. And, I think it is a valid argument.

Got to go, for now.

TED Z

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Posted By: JimB

Ted,
I think I understand your theory and I like it, particularly with the "tobacco twist", but I still don't see why they would pull Plank and not Bender and Davis without the "tobacco twist".
JimB

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Posted By: barry arnold

Ted,
Looks like you have a Primacy of Caramel Theory in the works, with respect to
the Plank case!!

I must underscore that I like very much your insistence that we reevaluate,
if not dismiss, the validity of the broken plate and anti-tobacco motifs which have reigned for far too long.

It reminds me of major breakthroughs in textual criticism which only became possible when sufficient courage and insight was mustered to investigate and
challenge reified contentions which really stood on clay feet.
I think we are finding that some of the other 'reified' absolutes, such as
the order of scarcity of backs, will find some similar dissolution of clay.

The idea of the Philadelphia based American Caramel Co. insisting that no one
else print their hometown hero, Plank, resulting in AC pressuring ATT into
ceasing seems most worthy of investigation.In this vein, Plank's being blocked from appearing in the T206 results in the card's scarcity.

great work.

all the best,

Barry

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

We need Bill H to opine about this.

And then what the hobby needs is a thorough book on T206 that grabs the interest of the general public, that would be a boost to the hobby!!!

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

....."Where have gone Bill Heitman....our Forum turns its lonely eyes to you ?"

Stealing and modifying the lyrics from what movie....and what year....and what famous "advice"
did Murray Hamilton give Dustin Hoffman ? It was very "apropo" for many members in this Forum.

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

The Graduate, 1967, plastics. And amen!


Now if we can find Bill, a board turns its lonely eyes toward you...

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

It took you only 5 mins. to answer all 3 trivia's....I made this too easy.

OK, now for the tougher trivia ?.......There are two very interesting facts regarding the theme song,
Mrs. Robinson, by Simon & Garfunkel......can you tell me what I am alluding to ? ?

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- give us a hint. Two interesting facts is too vague.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefieldf

Well I used to be a DJ...

Mrs. Robinson, from the album Bookends.

#1 The song originally was "Mrs. Roosevelt" but was changed for the movie because Mike Nicols was on a Simon and Garfunkel kick.

#2 The song was about an elderly lady going into a nursing home.

#3 Initially DiMaggio did not like it, he'd not "gone" anywhere, but he gave up complaining when he saw it brought him renewed fame.


Chicago DJ Larry Lujack once was talking to some elementary kids about radio. Many of them wanted to be a famous DJ like Larry, when they grew up. One child told him so, to which he replied, "Kid, you can't do both, you can either grow up, or be a DJ." I finally grew up, but it took extra long.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Frank- I think "Bookends" is one of the great albums of the era and is almost completely forgotten. I still have my original copy that I bought in 1968 and played it recently (yes, I still play vinyl on a turntable).

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Posted By: scott brockelman

can still hear John Records Landecker coming in crystal clear at night after the other stations shut down the signal power.

Scott

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

1st....You are correct, Joe D wasn't too happy about the lyrics......"where have you gone Joe DiMaggio".
However, his agent (or lawyer), convinced him that this would be good for his image and his pocketbook.
Up until 1967 he was living a life away from the public scene. The next thing you knew, Joe was doing
TV advs. for Mr Coffee, and he was doing Public Relations for The Bowery Savings bank in NY.

2nd....But, were you aware that the "DiMag...." lyrics were not sung in the movie version ?

That was part of the concession between Joe, his agent, and Simon & Garfunkel to allow the lyrics in
their song.....but, DiMag did not want his name to be associated with the movie.

It's one of those tiny bits of trivia like in Casablanca, where Humphrey Bogart never asked Dooley Wilson
"to play it again Sam".......

TED Z

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Landecker.... Scott you are moving cobwebs off of those memories. I, too, through the WLS static, can here John saying "super little old sister super-soul Janice Joplin, and the Full Tilt Boogie Band"... "38 and windy in the loop"... and stuff like that. In the days before FM rock, WLS boomed out at night, all across the heartland.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

didn't know the "DiMaggio" line isn't in the movie... very nice, Ted. Gotta see it again, now!

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

My 4 years in the Air Force were divided between Champaign, Illinois and Bangor, Maine. WLS and WABC (NYC)
were clear-channel stations that were "booming" and could be heard from the mid-west to northern New England.

Those were the days of the great "sounds". And, here is another TRIVIA ? for you.....what was the song, artist,
movie, and the year that "Rock & Roll" really became widely accepted by the youth of America ?

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hound Dog and Elvis maybe??? I know little about his movies... Oddly, I only liked a few of his songs, Suspicious Minds, Kentucky Rain...

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Posted By: DMcD

Rock Around the Clock
Bill Haley and the Comets
Blackboard Jungle, 1955

Great time to be a kid!

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Posted By: JimB

Other than Bender and Davis not having good years in 1908 as Ted suggested, can anybody else suggest why they were not pulled like Plank if tobacco, rather than Philadelphia/American Caramel was not the reason.
JimB

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

David McD

You are the Trivia King for a day.....you got all four answers perfect.

And, you are absolutely right......the 1950's was a great time to be a kid.
I would not trade my age with anyone......if it meant I would miss out on
growing up during the '50s.

Nice colorful photo of the only World Championship team ever in Flatbush.

Ted Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JimB

Bender and Harry Davis are not the only A's in the 1st (150) Series of T206's.
There are also Doolin, Murphy, Nicholls, Oldring and Powers. But, these guys are
not in contention, as they were not in the E90-1 set.

But, a possible answer to your question regarding Bender and Davis (and perhaps
any other A's players) is.....in order to have exclusive rights to their guy, Plank....
Am. Caramel "threw a few bones" to the T206 guys by allowing them to depict the
other A's players.
Such negotiations are not unusual in the "BB card Wars" between Candy, Tobacco,
and Gum producers.

This was the case between Goudey and National Chicle....ditto, for Bowman vs Leaf
and, Topps vs Bowman.

And Jim, you have to get off this "tobacco thing"....there has never been any proof of
this regarding Plank...."anti-tobacco is just another word, for nothing left to excuse"....
paraphrasing Janis Joplin, 1969.

TED Z

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Ok... here's what I think and why:

Bender, H. Davis, and Plank are in American Caramel sets. American Caramel is based in Philadelphia, where the A's played.

1903 E107, Breisch Williams was a predecessor of AC, and the set had all 3, Bender, Davis and Plank. I think BW merged into the new AC.

American Caramel sets

Bender Davis Plank
1908 E91-A y y y
1909 E90-1 y y y
1910 E125 y y y
1915 E106 y n y


other sets
1909 E92 Dockman y y n
1910 E93 Standard Caramel y n y
1909 E95+96 Phila Caramel y y y ****
1909 E97 Briggs n y n
1909 E101 set of 50 y n n
1910 E98 set of 30 y y n
1909 E102 y n n
1910 E105 Mello Mint y y n
Most of these sets are small 25 cards, 30, 50, 100 or so.

What do Bender, Davis and Plank have in common? All played in Philadelphia with the A's. Their careers overlap. Davis started sooner, and retired sooner (except for some token appearances).

How are they different? Plank was a college graduate, an educated gentleman playing a ruffian's game.

It is reasonable that AC got Philadelphia players under contract for their cards, either when the cards were released, or soon after. The American Tobacco Trust sent reporters out to get contracts signed after production started. Maybe AC did this before ATT, or maybe contemporaneously. The ATT T206 cards probably came out at the end of the 1909 season, so it seems that some of the candy cards were out there first. Wagner had his T206 pulled over the money (not the tobacco). If Plank, college educated, was approached to sign, it seems that he may well have not taken the few dollars offered and refused, since he'd already signed an agreement with hometown AC. Maybe he heard about Wagner's not signing, Pittsburg wasn't that far from Philadelphia.

So Plank isn't in the ATT tobacco issues. He is in 2 non-ATT tobacco issues:

T208 Fireside, from 1910. The cards show Bender, Davis, and Plank. They were from the Thomas Cullivan Tobacco Company of Syracuse, NY.

T204 Ramly, from Massachusetts. The cards also show Bender, Davis, and Plank.

Maybe T204, T208, and the Philadelphia Caramel Company (above with "***") which was located in Camden, New Jersey... maybe these out of state companies didn't care about what AC thought of their use of the likenesses, or maybe Plank or the AC just didn't know, or they didn’t care what was happening outside of Pennsylvania.. ATT was selling cigarettes in Philadelphia, but Ramly and Fireside weren't, and that Camden NJ candy company would not have had much of a presence there, either.

So I think Plank would have been under contract with AC, and he wouldn't sign a contract for ATT when approached. I figure Bender and Davis were less educated, less concerned about proprieties, and pocketed the few dollars offered.

I think Ted Z has something with all of this.

Frank.

Edited.... I had those "y"s spaced out under the players' names, but it didn't space after submitted, so I've added "n"s and it is a mess. Sorry.

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Posted By: Larry

I noticed that there was some direct descendants of Ed Plank featured during a commemorative ceremony in Gettysburg, PA not too long ago and there was an Ed Plank III and some grandchildren pictured...Maybe the historical society of the Philadelphia Athletics(which had a posted phone #) or the relatives know more about the history of his cards and or contracts??? It is worth an inquiry..see google Plank Athletics gettysburg key words and you will see some leads...Good Luck!!!

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Posted By: David Hornish

Frank Wakefield's post was interesting but it should be pointed out Camden NJ is really a suburb of Philly and it where a lot of industry is (and was). Good stuff Frank.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for mentioning the A's Historical Society, they are only 45 mins. away from where
I live here in Pennsy. I will go there this week and do some research on Eddie Plank.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thank you for your very well-researched and detailed presentation which supports my Plank theory.

It's very interesting how this trio of Phila. A's players (Bender, Davis and Plank) made the rounds in
these products.
I initiated this Thread with the intention of encouraging some brainstorming on this topic. I really
expected to take some "flack" on my thoughts on this subject; however, I have been, for the most
part, quite pleased with the response. And, especially from you, Frank. You really know how to dig
deep into a subject and reveal the facts.....I like your style.

TED Z

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

As I went to bed, with visions of baseball cards dancing in my head, I had another thought.

Breisch Williams signed some players in 1903 and 1904. American Caramel was formed in 1898, and consolidated other candy companies in Philadelphia, including Breisch Williams. AC just kept the brand out there. So it was American Caramel who signed those players. And that would have been long before the American Tobacco Trust came on the scene.

Frank.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

You keep coming up with some great stuff....I am really impressed.

But, I hope you don't blame me for keeping you from sleeping ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Are you saying the E107 cards were produced in Philadelphia ?

I have never been able to find out where they were.

TED Z

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Well yes sir, kinda.

BW was a predecessor company to American Caramel. AC was a conglomeration of several caramel companies that joined together. One of their purchases was Mr. Hershey's Lancaster Caramel Co, Hershey took the money from that to build his new, state of the art, chocolate factory in his created town, which is now known as Hershey.

BW could have had the cards printed in NY, or anywhere. but the candy company that distributed them was in Pennsylvania.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

You are a wealth of knowledge, Until now, I have never been able to find out where
Breisch-Williams originated from. That's more great stuff, Frank.....keep it going and
we'll solve this mystery yet.

This Friday I'm dropping in at the Phila. A's Historical Society (Hatboro, PA). They're
about 45 mins. southwest of where we live along the Delaware River. I will see what
they have in their archives on our new-found hero.....Eddie Plank.

TED Z

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Some Philadelphia historical society or library will probably have a file on Breisch Williams, American Caramel, and all of that stuff, too.

I'd never thought that stuff through. But it kinda makes sense, doesn't it? BW first in 1903. Easy for AC to follow. ATT got there too late, at least to sign Plank, I bet.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

There is a 4th member of the Phila. A's team that we have overlooked in this discussion....and his
name is Eddie Collins. He is also in the 1st series of the American Caramel set. But, is absent from
the 1st series of the T206 set. He is subsequently portrayed in the 350 series of the T206 set
(along with many other A's players). This T206 series, it has been determined, was issued in 1910.
Eddie Collins had one of his better seasons in 1909, batting .346.

I think we are convinced that Am. Car. had the rights to these A's players for the years 1908-1909;
after which, it was anyone's ballgame.

And, speaking about Collins......let's put Jimmy into the "mix". He ended his Major League career with
the A's (1907 - 1908).....why wasn't Jimmy in the Am. Car. set ?

And, incidently, he is portrayed in the Breisch Williams set with Boston (AL).

I will anticipate your thoughts on all this.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Just returned from the A's Historical Society and cannot tell you much more than we already know.

The A's expert that's usually there, wasn't today....but, I got his Tel #.
Those that were there mainly have BB cards, memorabilia, and lots and lots of photos of all the A's
players from day one.

Anyhow, hopefully Max (the expert) can provide us some "good stuff". So, this is just a start in the
quest for thr truth.

TED Z

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
I was wondering when you were going to get to Collins. Old "College boy" might have appeared in the 150 series, if the Proof card of him batting had ever been put into production.....

I think you guys are on the right track, as I have always thought it had more to do with money than a broken printing plate.


Keep going Brian