This is the problem with grading...

[SMPEP]

... when your shill bidding at $250 and the card sells at $3,150 ... I can't get too worked up. Yeah, you shill bid, but your bid was essentially irrelevant because two people went WAY over the top of you.

When you shill for $250, and the card sells for $251 ... that's a different story.

Cheers,
Patrick

[smtjoy]

So what about the $475 shill on the $611 Havlicek? You ok with that too?

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=120964176990


Also might be nothing but the winner of the Havlicek with their 595 Bids this month of which 456 are with only Probstein123 or 79%, humm yea that looks good too.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

... when your shill bidding at $250 and the card sells at $3,150 ... I can't get too worked up. Yeah, you shill bid, but your bid was essentially irrelevant because two people went WAY over the top of you.

When you shill for $250, and the card sells for $251 ... that's a different story.

Cheers,
Patrick

Thanks Patrick, I didn't know this kind of shilling was acceptible. I learn something new everyday...

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Thanks Patrick, I didn't know this kind of shilling was acceptible. I learn something new everyday...

Yes, when it's a low bid like that it's not really shilling. It's called a "safety bid."

[mark evans]

Grading is inherently subjective, no way around that. Having said that, though, it is my view that TPG is, on balance, of benefit to the hobby largely because it facilitates long-distance including internet transactions.

The problem I see relates to the enormous differences in value ascribed to high grades of even modern day commons. Even assuming no ethical problems in the grading process, the subjective nature of grading should over time reduce these disparities in my view, perhaps risking the investment of those collecting the highest-graded cards.

Originally Posted by SMPEP

... when your shill bidding at $250 and the card sells at $3,150 ... I can't get too worked up. Yeah, you shill bid, but your bid was essentially irrelevant because two people went WAY over the top of you.

When you shill for $250, and the card sells for $251 ... that's a different story.

Cheers,
Patrick

Pat look at the bid % of the 3 bidders over the $250 mark. 2 of them are way high IMO and the 3rd is the winner. Probably legit but still ripped off

[eb548]

the guy practically sells half the vintage cards on ebay. If you dont have a high bid % with him, you probably dont like/ are not bidding on vintage cards. Also, why does probstein have to police ebay policy? Probstein pays ebay fees to do this stuff. Regardless of what is going on behind the scenes (which i have no clue but I'll give Probstein benefit of doubt because of the guy I know him to be), blame ebay not him. He cant control this stuff.. he doesnt have the administrative ebay software.. Jeeeeeez

+1 Kevin Mize post

[SMPEP]

I know my opinions don't match the majority of the board's ... but I honestly don't care if a seller shill bids me.

I as a buyer want the item and have set the price I will pay. I view my bid as a Buy-it-Now price. In other words, if the seller had this item with a Buy-it-Now price that was equal to my bid ... I would buy it immediately. If it was more, I wouldn't.

So if I get an item at a price less than my max bid ... good for me. Lucky day.

If I get an item for my max price ... cool. I got the item I wanted, and paid the amount I was willing to pay. (and not a penny more.)

If someone shill bids me up to my max price ... well, that kind of sucks (because I would have been lucky and gotten a bargain), but at the end of the day I still get the item I wanted and for a price I was wiling to pay. And since I set the price, I always get the item for a price I like.

So, I understand people get upset that they don't get the bargain they hoped for (and agree it is not right for seller's to do this) ... but I'd rather get shilled and get the item for my price, than not get the item.

And everyone on here has my permission to bid me up to my maximum price. I won't complain! (If you outbid me and get the item I want however ......)

Cheers,
Patrick

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

I honestly don't care if a seller shill bids me. . . . I as a buyer want the item and have set the price I will pay. I view my bid as a Buy-it-Now price. In other words, if the seller had this item with a Buy-it-Now price that was equal to my bid ... I would buy it immediately. If it was more, I wouldn't. So if I get an item at a price less than my max bid ... good for me. Lucky day. If I get an item for my max price ... cool. I got the item I wanted, and paid the amount I was willing to pay. (and not a penny more.) If someone shill bids me up to my max price ... well, that kind of sucks (because I would have been lucky and gotten a bargain), but at the end of the day I still get the item I wanted and for a price I was wiling to pay. And since I set the price, I always get the item for a price I like. So, I understand people get upset that they don't get the bargain they hoped for (and agree it is not right for seller's to do this) ... but I'd rather get shilled and get the item for my price, than not get the item. And everyone on here has my permission to bid me up to my maximum price. I won't complain! (If you outbid me and get the item I want however ......)

+1

I view shilling as a hidden reserve, without which certain items might not have been offered in the first place. When you eliminate shill bidding you end up with an ebay filled with outrageously priced BINs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Oh no, time for another Paul vs. Jeff showdown.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Oh no, time for another Paul vs. Jeff showdown.

I can cut to the end of that argument: "My name is Paul, and I will bid in an auction house that fraudulently shill bids me. I have never paid more for an item than I wanted to. I have $32 to my name."

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I can cut to the end of that argument: "My name is Paul, and I will bid in an auction house that fraudulently shill bids me. I have never paid more for an item than I wanted to. I have $32 to my name."

[calvindog]

Shill bidding is a crime. Whether or not anyone cares if they're the victim of a crime does not change the fact that it is a crime. And crimes in which victims do not lose money (for example if the shill bid is placed much lower than the item's final price) does not change the fact that a crime has been committed.

[smtjoy]

"I have bought many, many cards from rick probstein over the past several years. I have never suspected anything pertaining some of these accusations that are being made on this thread. "

I have too and im sure many of Ricks auctions are fine because it really gets down to the consignor, if they dont shill/bid their own auctions then you will win a card at the right price, just like the seller of the 1973 Shell PSA 8 for $47. The problem was the winner Pang21 who won and then reconsigned and then shilled his own auctions. While Im sure Rick has tons of business and does not track every bid, he does manage to invoice all his consignors his fees on each of these 10k monthly auctions and now that it has been brought to his attention the shilling what does he plans to do about it. He does have control, once a consignor shills he can just no longer accept consignments and block them as a bidder.

I remember when PWCC was questioned that he allowed a single safety bid, he was on here and posted that at one time he had allowed it but that was no longer the case and he did not allow any shilling by consignors, I give him props for at least addressing the issue.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by smtjoy

"I have bought many, many cards from rick probstein over the past several years. I have never suspected anything pertaining some of these accusations that are being made on this thread. "

I have too and im sure many of Ricks auctions are fine because it really gets down to the consignor, if they dont shill/bid their own auctions then you will win a card at the right price, just like the seller of the 1973 Shell PSA 8 for $47. The problem was the winner Pang21 who won and then reconsigned and then shilled his own auctions. While Im sure Rick has tons of business and does not track every bid, he does manage to invoice all his consignors his fees on each of these 10k monthly auctions and now that it has been brought to his attention the shilling what does he plans to do about it. He does have control, once a consignor shills he can just no longer accept consignments and block them as a bidder.

I remember when PWCC was questioned that he allowed a single safety bid, he was on here and posted that at one time he had allowed it but that was no longer the case and he did not allow any shilling by consignors, I give him props for at least addressing the issue.

So he tells Pang21 to cut it out, or he blocks him. If Pang21 really wants to bump the auction he just uses another ID, or asks a friend to bid saying he will reimburse him if he wins. With so many issues plaguing the hobby, why waste time on this?

[howard38]

z

[T206Collector]

I do think that shill bidding can artificially inflate the market for things that are sold in non-shilled markets, which can be problematic when trying to assess the value of something.

[brob28]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

... when your shill bidding at $250 and the card sells at $3,150 ... I can't get too worked up. Yeah, you shill bid, but your bid was essentially irrelevant because two people went WAY over the top of you.

When you shill for $250, and the card sells for $251 ... that's a different story.

Cheers,
Patrick

He was all set to shill, but soon after starting realized two fools with registry dreams were going to take care of that for him!

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by brob28

He was all set to shill, but soon after starting realized two fools with registry dreams were going to take care of that for him!

500% profit was enough for him, he didn't wanna be greedy.