PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Matt,

So me who maybe owns a thousandth of a percent or less of the altered cards vin the hobby is the only one to tell psa or sgc to regrade them all and take the financial hit--do you want to take it for me?

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

I have a dream,

A person will not openly pine for change unless he/she is prepared to sacrifice to effectuate said change.

I have a dream,

A person openly pining for change will cease trying to distinguish his/her hypocritical actions on the basis they are unrelated to his/her initial call for change.

I have a dream,

PSA HOFers will demand PSA, upon re-submission, check for alterations and for those found to be altered, take them out of circulation and provide fair compensation for the damages caused thereby to the card owner.

I have a dream,

No one gives business to a grading company that knowingly turns a blind eye to alterations upon re-submissions, or that will not remove such cards from circulation.

I have dream,

People who blast certain auction houses and their executives for actions inconsistent with the best interests of the hobby set their crosshairs on grading companies and their executives who are guilty of similar transgressions.

I have a dream.


Note: This version of "I Have a Dream" is not meant to be in any way disrespectful to Dr. Martin Luther King or his legacy. To the contrary, I regard his "I Have a Dream" speech to be one of the most inspirational and important addresses given in our country's history.

EDITED for grammar.

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Posted By: Jason L

An ant can lift 50 times its own weight

some certain people on this forum must have heads made of ants!

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Posted By: Steve

Jim

Going forward is no good, all altered cards should be removed from the hobby (when found)

By a simple downgrade to Auth and the owner of such cards made whole. Isn't that basically

what PSA does?

Why Joe hasn't replied to Leon? I don't have an answer for that I do know he replies

to me whenever I email or phone him (1x)

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Steve,

I appreciate you coming on and saying that.

This thread was never intended to be about Jim Crandell. I mentioned him only for the purpose of example as he had described his re-submission deal with PSA. As Jim correctly says, as large as his holdings are, they represent only a very small percentage of graded cards. The focus therefore is on PSA, not Jim. And on this score I am not trying to distort what anybody/any company says. I'm just trying to clarify once and for all what their policy is upon re-submission, as their new half-grade policy represents a golden opportunity to re-examine previously graded cards and remove from graded holders those deemed to be altered.

So, since Joe Orlando does return your calls (and apparently not Leon's), could YOU call him and ask the following three questions and report back his answers?

1) Upon re-submission, will PSA will look for alterations?

2) If for whatever reason a re-submitted card is found to be altered (after all, some alterations are sufficiently obvious as to be apparent when examining those characteristics of the card germane to whether it should be upgraded), will PSA in every instance remove the card from its graded holder, regardless of the desires of the card owner, and provide fair compensation to the card owner?

3) Has PSA made any re-submission deals with any of its major customers to not look for alterations and, even if they find one, to still return the card to its owner in its original holder?

Answers to these questions will clarify exactly what their policy is, which I respectfully opine the hobby has a right to know and PSA has an obligation to specify.

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Posted By: Steve

Corey

some of those questions you want me to ask are basically none of my business.

I will though, again ask him the following:

If PSA upon this resubmission program finds a card in its slab that is either counterfiet or altered what will they do?


That should be sufficient? It is after all the same question he has already answered for me.

Asking him if anyone has any side deals is frankly none of my business.

And would be rude of me.

Crandall and those guys got a deserving break in price, I doubt that they are getting bumps that they do not deserve.

If you read a submission form it clearly states that discounts are available all one needs to do is call customer service.

And just to set the record straight regarding me and my opinions of the top grading firms I think that SGC is in the top

tier of graders and I have some SGC cards in my own collection. I would not hesitate to use them either.


Steve


edited 2 typos
edited again typo.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Steve,

Thanks, okay, let's start with that, though I will politely ask you to consider whether you might be willing to go one further and ask him too whether they consciously look for alterations upon re-submissions (e.g., perform tests that go beyond what is necessary to determine whether the card deserves a bump-up, tests that they would perform for first-time submissions).

To be clear, I agree that it is none of anybody's business many specifics of Jim C's or anybody else's deal with PSA. In fact, to go further, and I even said this on an earlier thread, any prudent company would give volume discounts to its best customers. I also have never said or implied PSA would give unwarranted bump-ups to Jim or to anybody else. My SOLE focus has been on the question of alterations. To the extent that PSA has side agreements with ANYBODY to turn a blind eye to alterations upon re-submissions, that affects EVERYBODY because those altered cards remain in circulation in their original graded holders. And putting Joe Orlando on the spot to ascertain whether or not he has made exceptions to whatever alterations policy he describes to you, and I say this very respectfully, is neither being rude nor intruding into somebody else's private affairs.

Thanks again for your help and involvement with this. I think you and I share a similar belief that cleaning up the hobby involves more than just preventing cards from this point forward from being altered. It also involves removing from circulation graded altered cards.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I don't have a problem with Jim not taking a financial hit by resubmitting his cards cold. It's his life, his family and only he is reponsible for both -- we cannot expect him to put some moving definition of baseball card nobility ahead of what is best for his family.

In essence, Jim is playing by the rules that exist. We cannot fault him for that. That being said, whether or not Jim is getting preferential treatment on the upgrade submissions is an open question in my mind. To be clear, I have no doubt that Jim would not be party to such a thing but, after seeing how PSA sometimes plays fast and loose with its special friends (i.e. Memory Lane), I simply can't presume they are being honorable on this issue.

Edited to add: I just ready Corey's "I Have a Dream" speech, laughed at his evident insanity, but also agree with nearly all that he says. I wish the real world could be like that, too.

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Posted By: Steve

What amazes me, especially with all the lawyers here (real and imagined) is how
PSA's original statement was twisted to include what they would do regarding counterfeits
and alterations. I simply read it as that they would not downgrade any card.


Meaning, if I sent a card in and it was originally an 8 it would not
be returned graded a 7.5. That it would be returned as it was sent in or bumped.

No mention was made at that time if they would scrutinize every card sent in for alterations,
after all, it was already in a slab and thus had already passed that test. They were now looking for
cards that were hi end for the grade.

I then assumed that if they did by chance find a card that they now felt was altered/counterfeit
that on a case by case basis the owner of said card would be contacted and with protocols already in place for such matters
the owner and PSA would decide what was best for each other. Rather simple stuff if you ask me.


What happened was a few people here read into what was
not said and after a few posts among themselves decided what PSA was doing!
From there the conspiracy was formed and no matter what anyone said, they, like horses with blinders on
had formed an opinion and by golly nothing anyone said would change their minds. It was now FACT!

I have no idea what PSA does behind closed doors. I only know what I was told and what I read on the website
regarding the guarantee. I think (and this is just my opinion) that many of you here know that many
pre war cards have in fact been trimmed down if they were over sized or cut from sheets and are in holders. And it
is these cards that you have the problem with.

That is a completely different animal and one I have no expertise on. Nor do I even want to go there.
As far as I am concerned they are in holders and are market acceptable. If a buyer/owner has a problem with one they should feel free to take it up with PSA though.

I have always just stressed that (IMO) PSA would simply bump a card up if warranted or return said card as it was
if it did not. Any cards that they happened upon that they felt was altered/counterfeit they would use existing protocols.

AS soon as Joe replies to my email I'll pass what he says to me along, I will not copy and paste his email though.

I hope this post clears up a few misconceptions that have abounded since PSA decided to go to a .5 system and thus
created a resub program. Again, this is all my opinion and it based upon how I read the original statement and
the conversation I had.



Steve

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Posted By: MikeU

Steve,

With certainly, your response from Joe will be that altered cards, if found, will be removed from circulation and the owners will be compensated.

When he states the above, ask him to update their official statement. That would certainly silence some criticism.

However, the critics will still complain and moan that PSA is pretending it has no overgraded cards. Ask Joe if overgraded cards, if found, will be downgraded and the owners will be compensated. If he says yes, ask him to update their official statement. That should shut up the remaining critics.

If Joe is unwilling to do either of the above, then these real and so-called attorneys may not entirely be the over educated, worthless, conspiracy theorists that everyone believes.

For the record, I am involved with Contract Law and while certainly over educated and worth less than I am paid, I do not consider myself a conspiracy theorist.

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Posted By: Steve

Hey I called it as I saw it. Or, more importantly as I read it.

If everyone knew what Joe was to say why all the bruhaha?

Of course PSA has overgraded cards in the slabs, prolly have just as many undergraded ones too.

Last I knew grading was an art not a science.

Not sure what would please the masses here.

Steve

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Posted By: JimB

Steve,
Well stated.

Corey,
With all due respect, why don't you call Joe? I have not read this whole thread, so if it is stated there, I apologize.
JimB

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Posted By: TFerg

I think Steve has it nailed. As far as trying to "please the masses" , I think that's taken care of. The masses couldn't care less, it's the few that have a problem from what I can see.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Its not the few that have the problem its the few that have the opportunity.

Resubmitting your graded cards for upgrades is win/win.

My second graded set as well as 1300 ungraded are on their way.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think the win/win concept is what is troubling many of us.

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Posted By: Steve

Jim has a way with words.

It is win/win only in that if a card warrants it, it will get bumped.

It has nothing to do with altered cards allowed to slip thru with a wink.

Now does it bother anyone?

Steve

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Steve,

Exactly--noone would of course think any differently.

8.5s are tough to get and are worth a clear premium. Price of 8s will remain the same.

If you put a lot of care into the quality of the cards you are buying not just buying the grade you will do well. So far so good for me.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Jim B, I'm more than happy to call Joe Orlando. I had asked Leon to do it because I thought representing this board he would have the most credibility. Then when Joe did not return his call, I thought Steve, based on his comments that Joe always returned his calls, would have a good chance of getting through. If that doesn't work or if Joe doesn't fully respond, then I have no problem placing the call.

As to comments bemoaning that it is only a few of us who are dissatisfied, to that I'll say you've got to be kidding. The issue we're talking about here is whether PSA is allowing PSA-graded cards that they know or reasonably should know are altered to be returned to their owners in their original slabs. I think this is an issue that is of concern to the majority of hobbyists. Too I feel based on all the threads/posts on this issue over the past number of months, there are many people who have reasonable questions as to exactly what PSA does. I think MikeU hit it on the head when he asks not whether PSA will say the right thing over the phone to someone, but whether they are willing to change their official statement and say altered cards will be taken out of circulation and fair compensation given to their owners. IF PSA will be willing to do that, then I will be satisified.

Such a public statement will have legal consequence. It will mean that if anybody has a PSA-graded card that is found to be altered, PSA is on the hook to remove the card from the holder and compensate the owner. Going further, it will also mean the card owner will not be at the mercy of PSA's assessment whether the card is altered. If someone with established expertise can as a matter of law establish that a card has trimmed borders, or rebuilt corners, or added coloring, or indeed to go further exhibits such characteristics that PSA as a matter of practice uses as a basis to reject other cards as altered, then PSA will have to provide compensation.

One last point. While designating a numerical grade may be an art not a science (and to repeat, my issue with PSA does not concern whether they give a card the correct NUMERICAL grade), detecting alterations in many instances is a science. With many types of alterations, an expert will be able to prove that (i) a card is either altered or (ii) exhibits such characteristics that were used as the basis for PSA to reject other cards as altered. So any qualification by PSA in any offical statement that PSA is to be the sole judge whether a card is altered would be a disreputable manuever intended only to make worthless the legal consequence of their statement.

So, let's see what they're willing to do as regards their official statement.

EDITED to add that it was not PSA's original statement about their re-submission policy that started the whole hulabaloo about what they do with altered cards. Rather it was Jim C's description of his deal with PSA that raised (at least in my mind) the question whether PSA would knowingly return altered cards in their original holders. Yes, I know I'm being accused of distorting what Jim C said and being a conspiracy maniac, but I still think that it doesn't take anything more than English 101 to come to the interpretation I did (see my March 25 10:47pm post on this thread which quotes exactly the exchange between Barry Sloate and Jim C). But again, let's wait to see what PSA will do with their official statement and let's make that the final determinant.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

There may be an easy way to test the system and keep this broken record from playing over an over.

I'll send PSA some graded altered cards in a mix requesting upgrade reviews and see what happens.


Kevin

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Posted By: barrysloate

Go for it Kevin, and please let us know the results.

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Posted By: Matt

I was hoping for Matt Sears to do that with his fake PSA "National Game" Joe Jax, but it seems he did not. Kevin - let us know what happens.

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Posted By: Steve

based on his comments that Joe always returned his calls,



I called him once, he never returned any call, typical of how you interpret the english language.

You get a thought into your head and it becomes fact.

Please show me where I said he returned my call?

He answered my call!

He returns my emails!


The fact remains PSA NEVER said that they would allow altered/counterfeit cards be returned.

That was how you insisted on reading the press release.


edited to add: and now it seems in your last post what Jim said and not PSA.

You have twisted your story at least 3 times in this thread, earlier you said this was not a thread
about JC now it was him that got you to think this way!

I'm lost Corey, so now it was not PSA? Well don't you think that is silly?

Is it possible that you took out of context what JC said?


Steve

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Posted By: Steve

Rather it was Jim C's description of his deal with PSA that raised (at least in my mind) the question whether PSA would knowingly return altered cards in their original holders.



Jim never said any such thing.

He said, and has said that PSA won't return any card graded lower.

Kevin is right this is beginning to sound like a broken record.



<<<I have no doubt that Jim would not be party to such a thing but, after seeing how PSA sometimes plays fast and loose with its special friends (i.e. Memory Lane)<<<


Jeff as usual makes a good point.


Steve

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Ugh!!

I would tell you all how this will turn out but it would allow Corey to write 100 more threads about what i said or didn't say over the next six months.

Thank you Steve.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

"Why Joe hasn't replied to Leon? I don't have an answer for that I do know he replies

to me whenever I email or phone him (1x)"

Those are your words Steve. So I am guilty of the unforgivable sin of interpreting the "(1x)" to mean that it is not necessary for you to leave multiple messages in order to get a return call (as apparently Leon will have to do). That intepretation in the context in which you made the remarks seemed to make sense. I do apologize for getting it wrong.

In regard to Jim C's exchange with Barry Sloate that I referred to, PLEASE, let's stop the BS, no one can reasonably argue that the most sensible interpretation to draw from that exchange is anything other than that PSA will return to him in their orginal slabs any altered cards they find. Apparently too based on followup posts by myself and other idiotic-distorting-conspiracy maniacs such as I (some of whom are among the most respected voices on this board), that interpretation seems to enjoy widespread support.

And in regard to this being a broken record, Jim C, how many times have you raised the issue of what Mastro does to cards, or blasted Doug Allen? But hey, that's okay because there YOU were the one raising the issue or doing the blasting. Doug at least, in addition to publicly changing his company's policy about prepping cards, also repeatedly came on this board to respond to inquiries as well as invited people to call him directly. Yet, Jim C, by your way of looking at the world, Mastro/Doug Allen are the bad guys and PSA/Joe Orlando the good guys. One thing I will give you credit for is that you never miss an opportunity to be a hypocrite.

EDITED to add that in response to comments that we put a new record on the turntable, I for one will stop rehashing prior comments on this issue. I doubt there will ever be uniformity of view as to what I or others said. In addition, it distracts from the main issue, which is what PSA does and whether they will amend their official statement.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Uh Corey--Doug Allen admitted on the board to altering cards in the past--Joe Orlando's company is trying to stop these altered cards from getting through. Very hypocritical(ha ha).

On Doug Allen, he has said that he does not do crease removal anymore and I take him at his word. I have no intention at this time of continuing to post about his past comments. I met with him personally in Scranton and I intend to go back to buying cards in his auctions.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Steve- I think Corey and I are trying to make the same point, perhaps worded a little differently.

I don't think this thread is about Jim C. It's about PSA, and whether they are willing to look at these resubmitted cards objectively. That includes three possibilities: 1) bumping a card a half grade or more if it warrants it; 2) leaving the card as is if they deem it was properly graded; 3) knocking it down a half grade or putting it in an Authentic holder if they recognize they made a mistake.

That would be a really valuable service to the hobby, but that's not what this is all about. The new policy rewards their best customers, such as Jim, creates an enormous new revenue stream for the company, and protects PSA's liability as they are under no obligation to ever acknowledge an error. And Corey and I, among others, believe this is unfair.

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Posted By: leon

I think you summed up the whole issue perfectly. I think we should take a snapshot of this last post you made and speak to it. Had this been a situation where PSA was doing something unbiased it would have been better than the stacked deck they are playing with, so to speak. It's a win win for PSA and their customers but a "win win lose" for the hobby, imo. This PSA half grade service isn't about making past wrongs right though....it's ONLY about the bottom line. (which I totally understand) regards

edited to add....I don't want to change what I said but I will say that I do believe there could be a shred of truth to the fact PSA would want to have a more accurate grading system. I can certainly agree with them on that point and, after further thought, there is no doubt in my mind this had something to do with the decision to go to a half grade system. The way they are going about the process is the issue. Things should be viewed to be downgraded as much as upgraded if it is to be a legit process, imho. ...regards

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Posted By: Jay

I have been reading the thread and not posting, but one of Jim's last posts raised a question for me. Jim--You said that 8.5s are very desireable (no doubt) and that they would trade for a premium over 8.0s. You also said that 8.0s would not decline in value. If you are correct in both cases, and I have no reason to believe that you are not, then PSA, by altering their grading system, has created value out of thin air. Some portion of the old 8.0s gain value, the rest stay unchanged in value. Lets say that $X in value in aggregate is created. PSA gets some portion of this through their grading fees. The rest, I assume, is coughed up by registry set junkies hungering for an extra half point here and there. Pasteur was wrong-spontaneous generation does exist.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jay,

Exactly.

PSA wins and their customers win. Win/win as I called it earlier.

As I mentioned several times and doubtless Barry and Leon both know this, no one would submit if their cards could go down in value or at least dramatically fewer. Good money-making opportunity for PSA and their customers.

In addition to a money making opportunity for PSA, I think they want to be competitive with SGC who offers the half-grade.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- you are articulating the problem.

Win/win doesn't work here. I have an even better solution: why doesn't PSA start a program where anyone who spends a certain amount of money with them each year is automatically entitled to a free half grade bump on five cards of their choice.

That's win/win. The consumer wins, PSA wins, and like Jay so keenly observed, they are creating value out of thin air.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Its like resubmitting all of your cards but putting a minimum grade requirement of 8.0--whats wrong with that?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Actually, while it is a common practice, and I thought of it as I was posting, I think there is something wrong with that, and I always did.

Even in that situation if you are asking a company to review a card, I don't think the consumer should be able to dictate parameters to the grading company. That's like taking a class and telling the professor your minimum grade requirement on the exam.

Because we come back to the same argument: what if you resubmit one of your 8's to PSA with directions for them not to grade it less than an 8, and upon reexamination they discover to their chagrin that the card is trimmed and never should have been graded? Why aren't they allowed to rectify the error?

If your answer is hardly anyone would resubmit a card under those conditions, then that's fine with me. If the so-called "grading game" ceased to exist that would be a plus for the hobby. It would reduce considerably the number of cards resubmitted.

Which of course goes against the whole purpose of the half grade program- creating a fresh stream of revenue for the company. It's not about grading, it's about the bottom line.

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Posted By: Jay

Jim--I hope the way the market prices cards going forward is that 8.5s are worth more than 8.0s and 8.0s are worth less than they used to be. That way there is no value created and the system is fine. My sense is that as this year rolls on both 8.0s and 8.5s will be worth less than 8.0s were last year, based on the economy, and seperating out the impact of PSA's actions, everything else held equal, will be impossible.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jay,

You may be correct???

I view it as value creation however--we'll see. This is largely based upon how stingy PSA appears to be in giving out the 8.5 grade. Also remember, one can even get 9s as I got four upgraded to 9 in my first 67 card submission

I for one would be prepared to step up my budget materially if cards say dropped by 20%.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I do think it is a little bit apples and oranges with respect to calling it the equivalent of a review with a minimum grade requirement.

Most of the time when you're submitting a card with a minimum grade requirement, you're submitting a card graded by another service, for crossover. In this case, you're submitting PSA-graded cards that were graded using a different grading scale, for review in homes that it will adapt favorably to the new scale. However, if PSA got it wrong the first time, you don't have to deal with any consequences - it's all upside.

The problem with that, of course, is that it is NOT "win/win." It's "win" for the submitter, and "win" for PSA, but it's definitely not "win" for the collector who buys the cards that didn't get the bump. That collector, unfortunately, has no way of knowing whether the cards they're buying have been resubmitted for a bump. And by plainly stating that they will not downgrade any card they find to be overgraded upon review, they're also saying - indirectly, by association - "Any card you receive that has a straight grade may or may not be accurately graded."

-Al

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Yeah,

But I'm not selling my cards.....collectors/ dealers will assume unless compelling evidence otherwise that all 8s have been resubmitted.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Barry, Al, you say it very well.

A grading company should be the bastion of integrity for the hobby. Good faith purchasers are relying on the good will associated with their name to make purchasing decisions. That reliance is violated when the grading company consciously releases back to circulation cards in their original slabs that they know are either overgraded or altered. As has been pointed out, that is a win/win/lose. Win for the grading company (they don't have to compensate the card owner for getting it wrong the first time and they also encourage more re-submissions), win for the card owner (his card is not downgraded, though I might add if the grading company were to compensate him for a downgrade, what has he lost?), but lose for good-faith-third-party purchasers (they are buying an overgraded or altered card).

If this practice is okay, then how does it differ from an auction house prepping a card for grading? That too would be the same win/win/lose. The consigner wins because he will get more for his card, the auction house wins because the more the card sells for, the more money they make. But the good-faith purchaser loses becauses he just bought a prepped card. The view on this board seems to be unanimous that such an action by the auction house cannot be justified on the grounds that it is a rational profit-maximizing action. So why then is that same profit-maximizing rationale used to support an action by the grading company that has the same deleterious impact on good-faith-third-party purchasers?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I have no dog in this fight as I really couldn't care less...put me in the Frank Wakefield/Dan McKee card grading sucks boat, but I have to say that PSA offered a new service - half grade bumps - that's all you're paying for and that's all they are offering with this service. Why should PSA go beyond that with this service? If they stand behind their product then there is no reason to look for alterations if they have already in the past deemed the card to be unaltered and gave it a grade. Quite simply they are looking at cards that were not good enough to be bumped to an 9, but they could be better than the 8 they were originally given because at the time they didn't have half-grades. Of course this was a transparent means for them to fleece the registry folks and knowing the competitive nature of their customers they knew it would work and it has. It's nothing more than that....PSA will NOT and probably should NOT answer Corey's questions from a business standpoint they have nothing to gain.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

"PSA will NOT and probably should NOT answer Corey's questions from a business standpoint they have nothing to gain."

Dan, you're probably correct on that. Inasmuch as I harbor no illusions PSA would be willing/able to shoulder the financial burden of compensating owners of all cards that are found to be altered, I see no chance they will ever amend their official statement. And from the business standpoint, while I'd love to argue that offering such compensation will generate such good will as to be a business home run, for all I know the financial hit could be so great as to potentially put them out of business.

Going forward, what I suspect will come from all this is PSA on a case-by-case basis will decide what to do with altered cards in their holders. For their best customers or perhaps for people who make the loudest noise, they will do something. But I don't expect to see any official pronouncement.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I think its funny that when someone agrees with you that the person says they say it well even if they have a hard time putting together a coherent sentence(maybe I am guilty of this too).

Anyway, Dan says it well(ha ha). My prediction will be that Joe will not amend the company's policy. I don't think you will be seeing them downgrade any cards or take any cards out of circulation either. If that ticks off the Corey Shanus' of the world so be it.

Dan--the cards can go right to a 9(I had four of 67 do this). And I don't think its succeeding because of the competitive nature of registry participants(although most are very competitive); its succeeding because its a tremendous economic proposition for those who own a lot of PSA 8 cards.

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Posted By: Jerry Hrechka

I believe that PSA has changed their Flips, so as time gos by it will be possible to tell which cards have been submitted for the .5 Bump & which don't qualify for the upgrade.
I think that a year or 2 needs to go by, before prices for straight grades and those with the half graded added, become accurate.

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Posted By: Steve

based on his comments that Joe always returned his calls,
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////



Your quote above says 'comments' as if I said it more then 1x. I was specific that it was 1x and I never said
he returned my call.

Seems like my comment(s) is/are not the only thing(s) that you have mis-interpreted.


You have gone from using JC in your opening post, to claiming this was not a thread about JC, back
to it was what JC said that gave you the impression.


You have changed your story at least 3x.

Nothing more for me to say here, I'm done with this thread.


Steve

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Don't worry Steve--he will find another reason to start a thread criticizing me very soon.

Stay tuned.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

"I don't think you will be seeing them downgrade any cards or take any cards out of circulation either."

Jim, while really not necessary, thanks for comfirming that. Or have I misinterpreted that one too. As to who that ticks off, I think it's been demonstrated that it ticks off a lot more people than just than Corey Shanus.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

PSA is evaluating cards for a half-point bump(or perhaps more)--nothing else--thats what this is all about--not determining if they made a mistake on a card at some point in the past.

Oh, I forgot--Steve--"well said".

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Posted By: barrysloate

Isn't part of cleaning up the hobby correcting errors? That doesn't seem so farfetched.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Barry, PSA is not involved with the "Cleanup" of the hobby. In case you hadn't noticed.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I have noticed.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

So, on that note maybe we have arrived at the answer which was the question of this thread -- over time, if not already, PSA cards WILL sell at a discount relative to SGC cards.