T206 Doyle NY Nat'l

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Posted By: dan mckee

Now how many of you knew Ole Charlie had this Doyle?? I did as he has had it for years. There are many old timers sitting on tons of treasures that you cannot even begin to imagine what is out there!

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/blog/index.php

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Posted By: Rob D.

This isn't meant to pick on PSA or REA, but I found this part of the auction description of the card to be interesting (bold face is mine):

"The accuracy of the PSA Population report is remarkable for a data base recording the populations by grade of over ten million cards. We use it all the time and believe it is almost perfect."

Almost perfect? Hmmmm.

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Posted By: Matt

No need to worry about the million dollars:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1216693138/PSA+Label+on+T206+Doyle

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Posted By: ChiSoxFan

Would be interesting to see how many of the "nine" are legit. I just searched the PSA set registry and of all the "public" sets, only 3 had one. Of those 3, 2 had "contact info". So, sent them both an email about the $1m challenge.

ChiSoxFan

Looking for T206 Sweet Caporal Fact. #30 White Sox in Poor to Fair condition.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

DAN McKEE

I've known Charlie Conlon since the early '80s....and, I did know that he was one of only 6 collectors in recent times
that own a T206 Joe Doyle error card.

For a while, Charlie and Larry Fritsch were the only known collectors in the hobby that had this extremely rare card.

And, unknown to many (until recently) is the Joe Doyle error card in Senator Richard Russell's collection (on display
at the Univ. of Georgia).

There are at least 4 - 6 other "Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'l" cards in circulation that are GRADED....and, are FAKES !

My warning to everyone out there is to save the above scan in your computer for future comparison (with respect
to the "Nat'l" lettering and spacing)....And never, never forget that a REAL Joe Doyle error card exists only with the
PIEDMONT 350 back.

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

I wonder how many Larry Fritsch ended up with after buying so many Doyle's?

Any ideas?

Rick

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Larry Fritsch owned only 2 Doyle's....the one he had, and the one he acquired from Bill Huggins in the mid-80's.
He never got any Doyle error cards from the many responses to his "Doyle Buy" advertising.

TED Z

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Ted - you may know this already but I believe an "on-again" "off-again" poster on this forum has two of them albeit I do not believe either are graded (or perhaps one was). For the sake of privacy, I do not want to publically out who I am referring to but I hope he chimes in on this.

======================================
For the premier online souce of information on baseball-related cigarette packs, visit http://www.baseballandtobacco.com

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

"There are at least 4 - 6 other "Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'l" cards in circulation that are GRADED....and, are FAKES !"

That's remarkable. Who slabbed them? Are they not Piedmont 350 backs and/or is the lettering off? Do their owners know this?

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

COREY

I will not in public discuss these....but, trust me they exist.

One of these is not even a PIEDMONT 350 card. And, all of them have suspicious lettering.

And...."frankly, I don't think they give a damn" !

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Ted,



What scares me the most about what you've said are the implications. A number of fake Doyle errors have already been slabbed. Yet to an expert such as yourself they are detectable due to the lettering being off. As I write this I can only imagine who out there is not feverishly working to "perfect" the lettering. It will look perfect, both in shape, spacing and color. And because we're only talking about four letters and an apostrophe, it probably pays to spend the money so the dot matrix pattern and other physical characteristics appear to match as well (at least as examined under the equipment the grading companies have). If this should happen and the market ever gets to the point where it cannot be confident it is looking at a fake or the real thing, regardless how it is slabbed, it will factor in the uncertainty and severely discount the value of all error Doyles, even the real ones. Maybe the only ones that might escape such a markdown would be those whose provenance establishes their existence and slabbling prior to a certain date. But certainly new finds might never be able to escape suspicion.

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Posted By: dan mckee

You got me Ted, I only know of the 3 fakes I made and had slabbed to prove graders are human. J/K I did hold a real raw one that a good friend of both of ours owns but I am sworn to secrecy.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

It behooves any one, or all of the professional Grading Co. to pool their funds and acquire Charlie Conlon's Joe Doyle error card.
Therefore, they will have a legitimate example to compare with in the future.
And perhaps, rectify their previously Graded cards in circulation that are fakes.

As I see it, these existing Joe Doyle cards that have been graded, and are fakes, occurred simply because there were no valid
Joe Doyle error examples to compare with.

I personally believe that very few (less than 1/2 a dozen) REAL Doyle's will surface in the future. And, I base this on my research
of the initial PIEDMONT 350 release and it's regional distribution.

However, I expect many Doyle fakes to continue to surface.

TED Z

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Posted By: JimB

Several important and frightening points have been brought up in this thread. I am also aware of an example that was encapsulated that has a different back. I thought REA would have the provenance put on this holder. Maybe they still will upon reading this thread. It would be reassuring down the line.
JimB

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Posted By: barrysloate

As Corey stated, the incentive is enormous, and the technical hurdles to overcome are not that great. There may even be old printing plates still in existence that used that typeface. If so, we will start seeing fakes. I'm surprised we haven't seen more already.

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Posted By: T206Collector

What people are talking about would be a major crime, given the purported value of an authentic Doyle. To pass one off as authentic to someone who knows what they are worth, you'd have to sell it for a lot, which would be a pretty big fraud -- meaning potential jail time if you got caught, and restitution of course.



If it was just about making one on photo shop and then there were no consequences for public distribution, well, then you would see more, I am sure.

edited to add: The reason you see so many fake Ruths and Cobbs and Mantles out there is because the signature is valuable -- but not too valuable because it is also relatively easy to find. You can pass a forgery off for a few hundred dollars and the risk criminal prosecution is not as high. But you try to make tens of thousands and you'll draw the attention of law enforcement.

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Posted By: Mark Evans

A former Board member showed me his raw Doyle error card at the Chantilly show a couple years ago.

Mark

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Posted By: JimB

I believe there are four Doyles on the PSA registry.
jimB

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Posted By: Larrie

For a very brief period of time I had one of these Doyle's. It came from a "virgin" collection of 2,700 tobacco and carmel cards put together between 1908 and 1914 and passed from the father (orginal collector) to his children in 1984. I also saw the "raw" Doyle Matt refers to....this time at the recent Fall Chantilly show.