1916 BF2 Ferguson Bakery question

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Posted By: Jim S

Hi,

This is the first time I've ever posted and I have a quick question. I completed a set of the 1916 BF2s. I'm currently doing research on the pennants and cannot find any concrete information on Ferguson Bakery or the origin of the set. I have seen references to Roxbury, MA. I have also seen references to the midwest as the site of origin. Any help out there? You can either email me or post on the board. I greatly appreciate the help.

Jim

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Hi Jim,
I also collect this set (I need about 15) and am pretty sure that the information that the bakery was located in Roxbury, MA is correct. I have, however, bought several of my pennants from people in Iowa and Illinois whose families seemed to have small hoards of them, so I believe they must have been issued there.

Do you have any with the little labels or tags still attached on the back? I have several...a Burns, Marquard, and Murphy, and I was wondering if you have any insight as to what those are. I can scan them and post an image later.

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Posted By: Bill Stone

Hi--I had a question regarding the recent Goodwin Auction --I noticed that 2 of the 3 of the BF2s got no bids and the 3rd got only one bid. Do you have an explanation? ---are these just so common most people have them already? was the reserve to high? I would appreciate your opinions. Thanks

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Posted By: jim s

hi Bill, I didn't see the results of the Goodwin auction so I don't know which one sold. The Hooper was a pretty high starting bid. If I needed the Herzog I would have paid the 100 dollars. The Judge, in my opinion, was definitely not worth the starting bid. All three were rather high priced unless of course you think you need it.

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Posted By: jim s

Greg: I have one BF2, a Jim Vaughn, that has a label on the back. It looks like a factory label. Mine has the number 420 with some nondescript letters to the right of the number

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Bill,
I wouldn't say that they are common, but BF2's probably have a somewhat more limited audience since some collectors don't really consider them "cards" in the same way that some don't consider the P2 pins to be cards either. I wanted to bid on the Herzog in the auction because mine needs to be upgraded, but totally flaked out and forgot to register until it was too late.

The Joe Gedeon (incorrectly called Harry Joe Judge in the description) didn't sell because it was hideously overgraded. Grading a BF2 with stitch marks around the edges is as NM is like grading a Turkey Red with a pinhole NM - a pin hole or a number of needle marks just can't be ignored when grading something, whether cardboard or felt.

With the Hooper, that starting bid was just way too high - I would expect a Hooper on Ebay to sell in the $250-$300 range, and it probably would have sold in Goodwin if it was opened at $100.

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Posted By: leon

I agree with your first paragraph about the possible lack of collector interest. My lone "type" is here...I think I got it a few years ago at the National....for $100
Maybe this is the next undervalued set? (am I stretching here?)....regards

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Leon,
I don't think you are stretching to say that BF2's might be undervalued - it is one of the last places where a collector can pick up a nice period "card" of Buck Weaver that actually has a photo and costs less than $500. The Joe Jackson also goes for the mid $1000's, and considering it has the same photo as the M101-4/5 (all BF2's do) it is a pretty good deal.

Regarding your type...not only do you have a "type" BF2, but you also have an error - yours says Joe Wood but actually pictures Heinie Zimmerman. Errors in the photos on these show up once in a while - most often I see Frank Schulte mixed up with Guy Morton or Jack Barry mixed up with Frank Schulte, usually some combination of those three guys.

Here is the Heinie and the Joe Wood, along with a Standard Biscuit Wood for photo comparison:

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Posted By: leon

I didn't think he looked like Wood but I didn't know who it was...so I didn't say anything.....thanks for the info

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Posted By: Joe_G.

Information passed along by a friend . . .

I do not believe the BF2s came from Roxbury, Mass., a section of the city
of Boston. If the Ferguson Bakery, which is best known for the D381 set, along with Fleischmann Bakery of New York, did issue BF2s, it was as one of many issuers like the M101-4 and 5 sets, from which the BF2 photos are taken. Ferguson did not distribute outside the Boston area and BF2s can be difficult to find even around Boston, so I doubt there was a major production locally. The origin of the cataloged link between BF2s and Ferguson is the similarity between BF2s and the D381 premium, a pillow top with a circular design formed by felt pennants bearing D381 photos (which, incidentally, are all portraits, not full-body shots as in M101-4 and 5). There also is an advertising card that mentions pennants, but I've never seen an individual pennant in that style, so I'm not sure there
was a separate pennant issue. The pennants on the D381 premium are
considerably bigger than the BF2s.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

the BF2's.....beautiful collectibles. Does anyone have the full-size pennants? They are incredibly hard to find and very pricey! I only have about 15-20 BF2's now. I agree with Greg on grading. MANY times I see them on ebay, they go for ridiculous prices even with the stitching around the outside. I love the fact that many people don't even mention this fact when selling them. John Billingsly bought a 'blanket' of them from a Mastronet auction, unstrung them and made a small fortune on them. They are difficult to find anymore in top condition. There is a person Bradburybeatlesman (sp?) on ebay that has been paying really high for them. As I understand it, there are 3-4 different tiers of difficult players within the set. That is from a long-time collector of them. I have a list of perceived scarce players but don't have it with me or in softcopy, so can't post it. I picked up 3 lots from Hunts a couple years back that were top notch. Each lot had about 4-5 players and 2-5 copies of each pennant in it. Got a great deal on them but unfortunately, they seem to have gone up significantly since I sold mine (of course.....).

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Posted By: jim s

I have two of the large ferguson pennants: Barry and Huggins. I saw another in the Halper auction. Does anyone know for sure their origin? I have seen two explanations. That it was a point of purchase store display. Another source said it was a premium you received by mailing in x number of xs.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Jim and anyone else who may be interested,
Here are the BF2's that I have with tags still attached to the backs...unfortunately the Murphy is ripped - it looked like it had two tags on the back. Perhaps those had to be removed and sent in for the larger pennants?

George J. Burns:



Red Dooin:



Ed Murphy:

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Posted By: Erick Lewin

I have a big collection of the Fleischmann cards, but i've seen pictures of the coupons on the ferguson d381's and they can redeemed for a felt pillow top, with, I beleive, the large pennants of players with the picture cards on them. I think they all came affixed together and probably sewn onto the cloth "pillow top".
There is a small picture of an advertisement for the coupon redemption pillow top in one of the collages in the Classic Baseball Cards Book "The Golden Years," which i'm sure many of you are familiar with.

Hope that helps a little

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Posted By: Hal

Hello,
I have been reading this board for awhile. I love vintage cards but unfortunately have not been able to afford more than a couple from common sets. I am writing because I have the book Classic Baseball Cards and I remember the collage to which the previous post is referring, and it brings up a question I have had for a long time. The picture being referred to looks like an advertisement for bread with the BF2 pennants and a card set which cannot be identified because that part of the picture is cut off. I believe the brand of bread advertised is also one of the brands on one of the backs of the D304 (which may be the unidentified card set). Is it possible BF2 pennants were also issued by the General Baking Company as well as Ferguson, perhaps in conjunction with D304? Could the Ferguson Bakery identification be incorrect? Thank you very much.

[1951Mantlerc]

Dear Friends,
I've been collecting these for years, The BF2's with Tags are very
hard to locate and are very rare, This is also another answer for one
of the members, I have an original Photo of the Ferguson Bakery that
is dated in 1900, I also have a calendar dated 1905 that has a picture
of the new delivery vehicles they were using. I also picked up a 1916
Roxbury MA. Phone book, It has a listing for both Ferguson Bakery and
General Bakery, They were both using the same address, I found out
later that General Bakery purchased the Ferguson Bakery in late 1916
and that is the end of that. I hope this information helps answer a few
of these question, Thank you, jimmy b.

[NiceDocter]

I remember back in 1982 when I was in Ohio a store had 2 of the large sized pennants up ON THE WALL!! They werent any slouches either... one was McGraw and one was Ty Cobb. Neither were for sale at the time, although I eventually traded for one, the other was sold to a guy named Pat Quinn as I recall. I havent seen either of these since. At the time, it was said that they were mail in premiums but I dont think anyone really knew for sure. Anyhow, thats my 2 cents on the issue......

[Republicaninmass]

Pat Quinn you say?

Him and his son are still around

[NiceDocter]

Yes he got the John McGraw I think..... if hes around you can ask him what ever happened to it.