John Rogers Sentenced

[deucetwins]

Here's the link.

https://m.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog/...oto-fraud-case

[Shoeless Moe]

Bummer, but hopefully he did his Christmas shopping early this year.

[Snapolit1]

Got his azz handed to him. Hopefully it serves as a warning to others.

[calvindog]

Fantastic sentence for another hobby scumbag. It may take time but eventually the Feds get their man.

Of the three main hobbyists who have been charged and convicted (Mastro, Allen and Rogers), naturally all three cooperated with the Feds. Of the three, two screwed the government with double dealing afterward. This sort of phenomenon with cooperators going bad rarely happens. But as I've long maintained, the fraudsters in this hobby are more duplicitous than nearly any Ponzi schemer I've ever run across.

[Bobmc]

I wish somehow the George Brace Photos archive could somehow be returned to Mary Brace. But, it has likely been broken up in bits 'n pieces and distributed all across the country, if not the globe. Crying shame. Sad.

[SMPEP]

Originally Posted by Bobmc

I wish somehow the George Brace Photos archive could somehow be returned to Mary Brace. But, it has likely been broken up in bits 'n pieces and distributed all across the country, if not the globe. Crying shame. Sad.

So could Net54 do something about it?

Could we set up a fund to buy the photos when they come to auction, and then send them to her?

Would members here being willing to send her any original Brace photos they had purchased? (I would personally, but have never bought any brace photos before).

While every advanced collector in the country isn't on this site ... a lot are.
Over a period of several years, it might start adding up. And I'd have to think that while the sting wouldn't be completely gone ... she'd LOVE going to her mailbox and every once in a while finding one of the original photos with a note saying from Net54.

Cheers,
Patrick

[Leon]

My understanding is that John's 40'ish minutes on the stand didn't help his cause. The biggest sad part was his oldest son was there and finding out more about his Dad that he didn't know about. The sentence seems about right, to me, for what he did. A lot of people will end up defrauded out of millions and millions of dollars. He will have plenty of time to think about it.

[Jay Wolt]

The Judge's quote says it all
"Society needs to be protected from you."

[Michael B]

Kudos to Judge Durkin

From the article:

[COLOR="Blue"]Rogers is expected to admit wrongdoing at his sentencing hearing today. His attorney also has cited a drug problem and bipolar disorder in explaining Rogers' past actions.

U.S. District Judge Thomas Durkin said he usually doesn't see the need for additional deterrence in a case like this where a nonviolent, first-time offender stands before him who had reached a plea agreement and cooperated with the government.

"I see it here," Durkin said, pointing out that Rogers committed his crime over years, violated his plea agreement and engaged in even more fraud. "Society needs to be protected from you."

The judge also noted, "I don't believe the crimes were based on addiction or mental condition. There was no other reason but greed."[/COLOR]

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Leon

My understanding is that John's 40'ish minutes on the stand didn't help his cause. The biggest sad part was his oldest son was there and finding out more about his Dad that he didn't know about. The sentence seems about right, to me, for what he did. A lot of people will end up defrauded out of millions and millions of dollars. He will have plenty of time to think about it.

Yeah, I think many of us have gotten to a point in our lives where our kids realize we are not superman and are not the greatest human being who ever lived. . . .but to sit at a criminal trial and hear this stuff your father did and what a scumbag he was. . . . I sympathize a great deal for his son. That has to be horrific. Your father is (hopefully) the first person you ever idolized and always your hero.

[vintagewhitesox]

I was in the courtroom.

Roger's allocution did not help. The judge is a tough one, and was especially upset about the double dealing after he agreed to flip. As Jeff said, that rarely happens.
My heart broke for the kid. the whole thing was very awkward.

side note, this is the same judge that sentenced Dennis Hastert. He's got some bite to him.
12 seems kind of high. I think if he didn't go continue to commit fraud he would have gotten between 5-7

[samosa4u]

His attorney also has cited a drug problem and bipolar disorder in explaining Rogers' past actions.

You gotta' love these f***ing criminal lawyers.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

<>

I didn't read the article that carefully, but what did the lawyer do wrong? Isn't it his job to zealously represent his client?

[vintagewhitesox]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

His attorney also has cited a drug problem and bipolar disorder in explaining Rogers' past actions.

You gotta' love these f***ing criminal lawyers.

whats wrong with criminal defense lawyers?

Drug and alcohol abuse, at any stage of life, has debilitating and long lasting effects.

Or do you think someone being sentenced to prison time isn't allowed to offer mitigation?

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

but what did the lawyer do wrong?

Would you ask that question if this POS (John Rogers) stole your money?

[vintagewhitesox]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Would you ask that question if this POS (John Rogers) stole your money?

Of course not, but you are conflating issues.
The lawyer is bound to zealously advocate for his client, not agree with what he's done.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by vintagewhitesox

Or do you think someone being sentenced to prison time isn't allowed to offer mitigation?

They are, if it makes sense. This guy scammed people out of millions and it was due to greed. Blaming it on the drink and drugs is laughable.

[aconte]

I'll say the same thing here that I did there.

Twelve years was not enough.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

They are, if it makes sense. This guy scammed people out of millions and it was due to greed. Blaming it on the drink and drugs is laughable.

Truly spoken like a person that has never dealt with an addiction.

[vintagewhitesox]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

They are, if it makes sense. This guy scammed people out of millions and it was due to greed. Blaming it on the drink and drugs is laughable.

How do you know? what is the basis for you to make that conclusion? did you read the pre-sentence investigation report? did you read his sentencing memorandum?

Nobody is disputing that he's a con man. That's why he's in this position. I would have, and have in the past, done the same thing. its negligent not to.

[vintagewhitesox]

Originally Posted by aconte

I'll say the same thing here that I did there.

Twelve years was not enough.

Merry Christmas Tony!!

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Truly spoken like a person that has never dealt with an addiction.

I drank like a fish in my 20s, sometimes I would have 10 drinks per day. I know addiction VERY well.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

His attorney also has cited a drug problem and bipolar disorder in explaining Rogers' past actions.

You gotta' love these f***ing criminal lawyers.

As a f***ing criminal lawyer I resent that pithy comment. I don't need to write a long defense of my profession. I hope you or anyone in your family never needs one of us, but if you do, you will be thanking your lucky stars someone is there to stand up for and defend you.

[timn1]

yeh that was a BS comment. Might as well say f***ing judges or bailiffs or parole officers. They all have legitimate roles to play.

Originally Posted by tbob

As a f***ing criminal lawyer I resent that pithy comment. I don't need to write a long defense of my profession. I hope you or anyone in your family never needs one of us, but if you do, you will be thanking your lucky stars someone is there to stand up for and defend you.

[Huysmans]

Not all Rogers are bad...

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by timn1

yeh that was a BS comment. Might as well say f***ing judges or bailiffs or parole officers. They all have legitimate roles to play.

Let's hope it stays that way.

[bmattioli]

"There was no other reason but greed."

Hope Karma bites him back someday..

[Fred]

Anybody want to recap the sentences for Rogers, Mastro and Allen?

Rogers = 12 years. Why people think this seems a bit harsh is beyond me. He'll probably get time off the sentence. Anybody wanna bet he spends 4 years in the can (maybe less) and then gets out?

Mastro and Allen perpetrated huge fraud and I think their sentences were lighter. Perhaps Mastro was smart enough not to do any double crossing of the government.

Anybody want to guess how much it cost to prosecute these clowns? I bet it cost the tax payers more than the amount of money those guys defrauded people.

[mark evans]

I would also like to put in a word on behalf of lawyers. I practiced for 30 years, mostly with the Department of Justice, before retiring in 2005. Virtually everyone I encountered was trying his/her level best to do the right thing and without regard to political considerations.

Thanks again to Jeff, Ryan and others who have worked to uncover fraud in the hobby.


Mark

[btcarfagno]

Even scumbags are entitled to a vigorous defense. This is America. That's what separates us from most of the rest of the world.

That and really good hamburgers.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Even scumbags are entitled to a vigorous defense. This is America. That's what separates us from most of the rest of the world.

That and really good hamburgers.

And baseball cards.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Even scumbags are entitled to a vigorous defense. This is America. That's what separates us from most of the rest of the world.

Yeah, sometimes I forget that. I just felt very bad for the victims, and got carried away a little. Sure, some criminal lawyers are great, while others are just as bad as the scumbags they represent. Anyhow, if any criminal lawyer wants to PM and talk, then I'll be happy to do that. I need to get a few things off my chest.

Ranjodh

[judsonhamlin]

I will always respect zealous, ethical and effective advocacy by criminal defense attorneys.
I will always respect intelligent and impartial judges
They make the system work better and motivate me as a prosecutor to be better and more thoughtful in what I do.

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Not all Rogers are bad...

Actually, Rogers Hornsby was said to have been a terrible person.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by pbspelly

Actually, Rogers Hornsby was said to have been a terrible person.

Terrible?? Based on what... "actually"?

[Jeffrompa]

Before they are sent to jail ...

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Fred

Rogers = 12 years. Why people think this seems a bit harsh is beyond me. He'll probably get time off the sentence. Anybody wanna bet he spends 4 years in the can (maybe less) and then gets out?

He'll do 85% percent of that time minus perhaps a year for completing a drug program and six months in a halfway house. So he'll be in for over 8 years.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by calvindog

He'll do 85% percent of that time minus perhaps a year for completing a drug program and six months in a halfway house. So he'll be in for over 8 years.

What are the chances he will continue fraud after he gets out(eventually)?Anyone want to guess a percentage we will never be able to confirm? In this case, I think The probability is very high unfortunately.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

The Judge's quote says it all
"Society needs to be protected from you."

^^^^^^^^^
Yep

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Fred

Anybody want to guess how much it cost to prosecute these clowns? I bet it cost the tax payers more than the amount of money those guys defrauded people.

The cost of the prosecutions of Mastro et al. plus Rogers was a fraction of the amounts stolen by them. That doesn't include the loss of historical images that will never be recovered.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

The cost of the prosecutions of Mastro et al. plus Rogers was a fraction of the amounts stolen by them. That doesn't include the loss of historical images that will never be recovered.

Exactly. John has a 23.5M dollar judgement against him. That would pay for a lot of detective and prosecutorial work.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by pbspelly

Actually, Rogers Hornsby was said to have been a terrible person.

The SABR bio of Hornsby gives a concise overview of what a prick he was personally. From that bio:

"Hornsby, however, was almost as well known for his bluntness and complete lack of diplomacy as his prowess with a bat. He rarely argued with umpires but said whatever crossed his mind to anyone else, including the owners he worked for. Longtime Cardinals owner Sam Breadon remarked that listening to Hornsby was like have the contents of a rock crusher emptied over his head."

"Hornsby’s managerial career was far less successful than his playing career, however, especially at the major-league level. He managed for all or part of 15 big-league seasons with six franchises, achieving by far his greatest success as player-manager of the 1926 world champion St. Louis Cardinals. However, his overbearing, often irascible personality created poor relations with both players and owners, and led to his being fired at every post, sometimes in midseason. Like many great ballplayers who try to manage, he couldn’t teach what had come so naturally to him, and he was easily frustrated by mediocrity. As one writer put it, “Hornsby knew more about baseball and less about diplomacy than anyone I ever knew.”"

http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/b5854fe4

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Terrible?? Based on what... "actually"?

Perhaps "terrible" is a bit strong, but let's see, Rogers Hornsby

1) was bigoted, anti-Semitic, and, at least for a short period, a member of the KKK

2) was extremely unfriendly and difficult to get along with. He ignored or disparaged the majority of his teammates, and so tended to room alone, eat by himself, and shower, dress and exit the clubhouse without speaking a word to his fellow players.

3) was so unlikeable that despite his prodigious talents, he moved teams more than 14 times over the course of his playing and managerial career, and was basically consigned to manage in the minors for over a decade because Commissioner Landis reportedly blacklisted him from MLB positions due to his personality and gambling problems. At one point as a manager, Hornsby was fined for punching an opposing manager and knocking him out during an on-field argument. When asked why he hit him, Hornsby said, "I wasn't making any progress talking to him." At another point, his players were so happy that he'd been fired that they paid for and gave the owner a three-foot high trophy with the engraving, "To Bill Veeck: For the greatest play since the Emancipation Proclamation.”

4) was an inveterate gambler who lost so much money betting on horses that he lost several jobs because of it, and tried to make up for his gambling debts by cheating the IRS. He was subsequently charged with understating his income.

5) cheated on his first wife with a married woman, and was sued by the husband of the woman he was cheating with for breaking up their marriage. Hornsby later married and divorced again, and then took up with a woman who, a few years later, committed suicide. While it is unclear if Hornsby had anything directly to do with the suicide, one probably should assume that his personality didn't help matters.

6) was estranged from his son Rogers Jr. for most of his life, and made the comment that he was glad another son, Billy, had been released early on by a minor league team because, in Hornsby's view, Billy wasn't a "real player," and "imagine how I would have felt, seeing the Hornsby name down in the batting averages with the pitchers"

7). According to Bill James, "If a contest is ever held to determine the biggest horse's ass in baseball history, there are really only seven men, four of them players, who could hope to compete at that level. The four players are Hornsby, Ty Cobb, Dick Allen, and Hal Chase. I think I might choose Hornsby."

[trdcrdkid]

This is from the SABR bio linked to above, on Hornsby's managerial stint with the St. Louis Browns in 1952:

"Hornsby lasted only 51 games before Veeck gave him the boot. During spring training, he quickly got cross-ways with the legendary Satchel Paige, who liked to keep his own training rules.102 The club got off to a strong start but soon faded to seventh place, as Hornsby became more and more irascible.103 The acerbic Hornsby had general contempt for pitchers and continued his long-standing practice of making pitching changes from the dugout.104 According to Ned Garver, he was completely aloof and wouldn’t speak to a player except to ridicule him. Once in a hotel elevator, Hornsby derided Garver for walking the opposing pitcher in the game that day. The problem was that it had been Cliff Fannin, not Garver, who had done the deed.105

When Veeck got rid of the Rajah on June 8, the players were thrilled and presented their owner with a three-foot trophy that they had inscribed, “To Bill Veeck: For the greatest play since the Emancipation Proclamation.” Pitcher Gene Bearden said, “They ought to declare a national holiday in St. Louis.”106 Outfielder Bob Nieman was quoted as saying that “the news was like lifting a hundred-pound sack of sand from each player’s back.”"

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

This is from the SABR bio linked to above, on Hornsby's managerial stint with the St. Louis Browns in 1952:

"Hornsby lasted only 51 games before Veeck gave him the boot. During spring training, he quickly got cross-ways with the legendary Satchel Paige, who liked to keep his own training rules.102 The club got off to a strong start but soon faded to seventh place, as Hornsby became more and more irascible.103 The acerbic Hornsby had general contempt for pitchers and continued his long-standing practice of making pitching changes from the dugout.104 According to Ned Garver, he was completely aloof and wouldn’t speak to a player except to ridicule him. Once in a hotel elevator, Hornsby derided Garver for walking the opposing pitcher in the game that day. The problem was that it had been Cliff Fannin, not Garver, who had done the deed.105

When Veeck got rid of the Rajah on June 8, the players were thrilled and presented their owner with a three-foot trophy that they had inscribed, “To Bill Veeck: For the greatest play since the Emancipation Proclamation.” Pitcher Gene Bearden said, “They ought to declare a national holiday in St. Louis.”106 Outfielder Bob Nieman was quoted as saying that “the news was like lifting a hundred-pound sack of sand from each player’s back.”"

So he was blunt and didn't get along with people and players, often speaking his mind without sugarcoating?? That's ALL you could come up with from your morally superior perch? With all due respect David, this is just more of the pathetic painting of past individuals with today's delusional, politically correct brush. Am I saying he was a great person? No. I can't, because I, like you, have never actually met the man, and hence, shouldn't make any hypocritical attempts at judgement. Is he a PRICK as you contend?? If it's to be based on the minuscule amount of so-called damaging information you provide... then it's a resounding NO.

It's also funny that you conveniently left out this part of the write-up...

"On the other hand, Hornsby had a real fondness for children, working with thousands over many years. He was a more successful minor-league than major-league manager, suggesting that he had more patience at that level. But as a player he was so good that any all-time team without him at second base is highly suspect. The Rajah was indeed royalty with a bat in his hands"


plus... you did see that I added the images I did to lighten the mood on this thread right?
It wasn't done to make any kind of statement regarding the character of said individuals pictured.. that should be obvious to anyone.