delete

[Rollingstone206]

delete

[T206DK]

Lol, probstein....

[Cardboard Junkie]

This disturbs me greatly. Dave

[vintagetoppsguy]

Same buyer as the two '34 Gehrigs - eBay member gpark73

I'll repeat what I said in the Gehrig thread, "I'm sorry, but anybody that can look at a thread like this and still submit cards to PSA has absolutely no moral conscience."

And then there's Probstein, right in the middle of it all. This is like the Art Shell thread all over again.

[barrysloate]

How does Probstein get these huge bumps in grades? We're not talking half a grade bump, but more like one and a half to two grades. And he gets them often.

[packs]

Card has 3 stains on the back of it but got bumped a full grade and a half.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

How does Probstein get these huge bumps in grades? We're not talking half a grade bump, but more like one and a half to two grades. And he gets them often.

Probstein isn't the one getting the bumps..

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by packs

Card has 3 stains on the back of it but got bumped a full grade and a half.

wow! and $1000 more.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

How does Probstein get these huge bumps in grades? We're not talking half a grade bump, but more like one and a half to two grades. And he gets them often.

It's no secret that those who submit often and in bulk ALLEGEDLY get preferential grades. It is, in essence, keeping the customer happy and good for the bottom line, which is what capitalism is all about.

That said, the line/scuff on the back certainly got worked on, albeit not very successfully. Also, it's impossible to tell if it's the card or just the scan, but the surface has definitely been "scrubbed". Look at the first scan at all of those tiny little red ink scuffs in the white area on the left side and how they're not there on the 8.5. I would assume because of the grade bump, that the alteration is to the card and not the scan, but like I said, impossible to tell without it in hand.
Plus the white dots on his right thigh and upper right glove have vanished.

[ullmandds]

From what I've seen...and experienced...if you have a card with a defect(condition, alteration, etc)...you will more often than not get a higher grade with PSA. I believe this to be fact!

So who is to blame...the submitter? The grading company? Or the buyer for continuing to pay higher prices for subpar cards in PSA holders?

[travrosty]

The grading company, they are suppose to detect alterations, it's their job and it's what they claim to be able to do, so they need to do it or don't claim it anymore.

[DixieBaseball]

I have crossed over about 15-20 cards over the years and I have never been the benefactor of a grade bump that I recall. In fact, of the 20+ cards or so I have cracked out of holder's and submitted raw, about 25% of them have gone up a grade. Perfect example is at the National I submit 3 graded pre-war cards to PSA and all 3 come back a half a grade lower. As a "small guy" I would highly recommend you submit raw if you look for a bump. For me, I put certain pre-war cards in SGC and PSA holder's for different reasons and I leave some raw for various reasons. I do believe the folks submitting in bulk get preferential treatment and there is absolutely no consistency in the industry. I prefer raw, but do put certain types in holders for protection/presentation reasons.

[Rollingstone206]

delete

[D.P.Johnson]

It shouldn't be too hard to figure out who the buyer is (gpark73) even if Rick won't divulge the information. I mean, if someone contacts one of the other sellers he's purchased from, they'll probably give up the person's contact information...

Just sayin'....

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

It shouldn't be too hard to figure out who the buyer is (gpark73) even if Rick won't divulge the information.

I dont know who he is, but I think the OP may have some information that he's holding back until the time is right. I do know this, gpark73 is from New Jersey. Let's see, who else is from New Jersey?

Funny how Probstein sells all these cards, they magically get bumps and then re-appear back in his auctions. Hmmmm....

[ullmandds]

I grew up in new jersey...SGC is in new jersey...the garden state?!

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I dont know who he is, but I think the OP may have some information that he's holding back until the time is right. I do know this, gpark73 is from New Jersey. Let's see, who else is from New Jersey?

Funny how Probstein sells all these cards, they magically get bumps and then re-appear back in his auctions. Hmmmm....

I hear ya brother.
It would be interesting to see what address all these purchases are being shipped to...I think that would solve a lot of the mystery...

[D.P.Johnson]

Also....I believe that altering cards is considered fraud, so someone could theorectically contact the local D.A. in Jersey...Someone there might be bored enough to look into it...

[Theo_450]

I think the flip was doctored. Why is there no decimal in the half grade

8.5...

8 5 .......

[Leon]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

Also....I believe that altering cards is considered fraud, so someone could theorectically contact the local D.A. in Jersey...Someone there might be bored enough to look into it...

ALTERING cards is not fraud. Altering and then saying they aren't, is fraud. It's a slippery slope and I abhor the altering (major altering) that goes on. However, if I trim a card and then submit it to any grading company, and they numerically holder it, I have not committed fraud. The grading company has made a mistake...and unless they KNEW it was altered and still graded it numerically, they didn't commit fraud either. I am not a lawyer but I think fraud generally has to do with deception. And you won't be prosecuted in our hobby, generally speaking, for being incompetent.

And for the record I have been told, by respected sources, that most authorities aren't jumping at baseball card trimming/altering cases. That being said, I wish they were and I wish fraudsters would get a heavier hand than they seem to.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Theo_450

I think the flip was doctored. Why is there no decimal in the half grade

8.5...

8 5 .......

Sometimes the dust removal feature on scanners removes the decimal because it thinks it is dust.

[nsaddict]

I agree with most in regards to fraud, but don't understand why so many fingers are pointed at Probstein? The guy is only the middle-man with 8000+ feedbacks per month. Think about it, nearly 300 per day! One of the most prolific card sellers of all time! Should he be able to track and dig into every sale? Rick has had the nuts to come on this site and try to explain things. You have the right not to bid, it's that simple. If someone has concrete proof I'd like to hear it. I have no affiliation whatsover and do bid when I need a card at a price that I'm comfortable with. Same with the auction houses. To be continued for sure

[Theo_450]

Originally Posted by glchen

Sometimes the dust removal feature on scanners removes the decimal because it thinks it is dust.

I am still a wookie! OH, OH, the scanner removed the decimal place!!!!!!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

I agree with most in regards to fraud, but don't understand why so many fingers are pointed at Probstein? The guy is only the middle-man with 8000+ feedbacks per month. Think about it, nearly 300 per day! One of the most prolific card sellers of all time! Should he be able to track and dig into every sale? Rick has had the nuts to come on this site and try to explain things. You have the right not to bid, it's that simple. If someone has concrete proof I'd like to hear it. I have no affiliation whatsover and do bid when I need a card at a price that I'm comfortable with. Same with the auction houses. To be continued for sure

I agree with you.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

I agree with most in regards to fraud, but don't understand why so many fingers are pointed at Probstein?

Very well, I’ll connect the dots for you. It was learned in the Art Shell thread that a guy by the name of Joseph M Pankiewicz was buying PSA graded cards from Probstein auctions, re-subbing them for higher grades and re-listing them again with Probstein. Some cards he made $1000s of dollars on. He was also caught schilling on those very same auctions. Joseph M Pankiewicz is from New Jersey, just a few miles from Probstein. Coincidence? It was my theory at the time that the cards never really exchanged hands, that Joseph M Pankiewicz and Probstein were in cahoots with each other to make it appear (for the sake of the original consignor) that a transaction occurred, and there was also an insider at PSA they gave them magical bumps on undeserving cards.

Now we have the very same situation happening again with another eBay user (gpark73) that also happens to live in where? In New Jersey. Oh, and guess what? He’s also schilling his auctions. Look at the bid history of the Henry card in this thread. Gpark73 with a feedback score of 397 won the original auction and then he also bid on the card the second time around. Again, it’s all right there in the bid history.

So we have the same MO happening twice now with Probstein. It’s like déjà vu all over again. Do you honestly think it’s just a coincidence? If nothing else, the guy is guilty of schilling his own auctions and Probstein needs to do something about it. I am going to try my hardest the true identity of gpark73

Originally Posted by nsaddict

If someone has concrete proof I'd like to hear it.

No concrete proof, but the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.

[Theo_450]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Very well, I’ll connect the dots for you. It was learned in the Art Shell thread that a guy by the name of Joseph M Pankiewicz was buying PSA graded cards from Probstein auctions, re-subbing them for higher grades and re-listing them again with Probstein. Some cards he made $1000s of dollars on. He was also caught schilling on those very same auctions. Joseph M Pankiewicz is from New Jersey, just a few miles from Probstein. Coincidence? It was my theory at the time that the cards never really exchanged hands, that Joseph M Pankiewicz and Probstein were in cahoots with each other to make it appear (for the sake of the original consignor) that a transaction occurred, and there was also an insider at PSA they gave them magical bumps on undeserving cards.

Now we have the very same situation happening again with another eBay user (gpark73) that also happens to live in where? In New Jersey. Oh, and guess what? He’s also schilling his auctions. Look at the bid history of the Henry card in this thread. Gpark73 with a feedback score of 397 won the original auction and then he also bid on the card the second time around. Again, it’s all right there in the bid history.

So we have the same MO happening twice now with Probstein. It’s like déjà vu all over again. Do you honestly think it’s just a coincidence? If nothing else, the guy is guilty of schilling his own auctions and Probstein needs to do something about it. I am going to try my hardest the true identity of gpark73



No concrete proof, but the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.

So much for my decimal theory.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Leon

ALTERING cards is not fraud. Altering and then saying they aren't, is fraud. It's a slippery slope and I abhor the altering (major altering) that goes on. However, if I trim a card and then submit it to any grading company, and they numerically holder it, I have not committed fraud. The grading company has made a mistake...and unless they KNEW it was altered and still graded it numerically, they didn't commit fraud either. I am not a lawyer but I think fraud generally has to do with deception. And you won't be prosecuted in our hobby, generally speaking, for being incompetent.

And for the record I have been told, by respected sources, that most authorities aren't jumping at baseball card trimming/altering cases. That being said, I wish they were and I wish fraudsters would get a heavier hand than they seem to.

You're correct. I typed that response pretty quickly. That being said, I think if a nexus could be shown that a person is buying cards with the specific intent of altering and re-selling them for a profit (which it appears this person is doing), could potentially be considered fraud. This type of behavior if combined with shill bidding during a re-sale could certainly bolster the case...

[MBMiller25]

What do you want to bet that GPark37 is Joseph M Pankiewicz?

I know I wouldn't be shocked in the least if this GPark37 turns out to be Joe P.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Very well, I’ll connect the dots for you. It was learned in the Art Shell thread that a guy by the name of Joseph M Pankiewicz was buying PSA graded cards from Probstein auctions, re-subbing them for higher grades and re-listing them again with Probstein. Some cards he made $1000s of dollars on. He was also caught schilling on those very same auctions. Joseph M Pankiewicz is from New Jersey, just a few miles from Probstein. Coincidence? It was my theory at the time that the cards never really exchanged hands, that Joseph M Pankiewicz and Probstein were in cahoots with each other to make it appear (for the sake of the original consignor) that a transaction occurred, and there was also an insider at PSA they gave them magical bumps on undeserving cards.

Now we have the very same situation happening again with another eBay user (gpark73) that also happens to live in where? In New Jersey. Oh, and guess what? He’s also schilling his auctions. Look at the bid history of the Henry card in this thread. Gpark73 with a feedback score of 397 won the original auction and then he also bid on the card the second time around. Again, it’s all right there in the bid history.

So we have the same MO happening twice now with Probstein. It’s like déjà vu all over again. Do you honestly think it’s just a coincidence? If nothing else, the guy is guilty of schilling his own auctions and Probstein needs to do something about it. I am going to try my hardest the true identity of gpark73



No concrete proof, but the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.

This is the type of nexus I'm referring to. If this could be proven, all of the involved parties would be "screwed" (pardon my french)...

[nsaddict]

David,

"No concrete proof, but the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming."

Really? To suggest overwhelming evidence that Probstein has a hand in this is totally absurd at this point. The Art Shell thread was a full year ago and nearly 100K transactions later. I agree there are some shady consignors playing the grading game and receiving great returns. The hobby should keep an eye on this for sure. The OP (Striker) has posted some great comparison pics but a heck of a lot more info would be required to make it "overwhelming" in my opinion. The New Jersey connection adds one brick to the house, anyone have more bricks to add?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

To suggest overwhelming evidence that Probstein has a hand in this is totally absurd at this point.

At the very minimum, Rick should be aware that his consignors are schilling their own auctions. He's turning a blind eye. Go ahead, I know it's coming. Give me your Probstein apologetic excuse and tell me now many 1000s of auctions he runs every month and there's no way he can keep track of who's bidding on what, blah, blah, blah. No, save it. It's the same thing I heard in the Art Shell thread, only a different consignor this time (or is it?).


******************************************

On another note, PSA needs to look to see if there is a rat on the inside. I've cracked and re-submitted several cards in my life and several have bumped, but not the significant bumps that pank21 and gpark73 get. They need to take note of the serial numbers on these flips and see if they're all being graded by the same person. If so, they have a problem.

[travrosty]

altering a card is not fraud, but altering it and submitting it with the intent to fool the authentication company is fraud. its intent, not the actual outcome. it's hard to prove intent, but if someone is trimming and trying to slide it past psa with intent to get a numerical grade it is fraud. otherwise if they werent trying to commit fraud, and they altered it, they could just tell psa they altered it and get the A, if they arent doing that, then they are trying to get a numerical grade. if it came back with a numerical grade, then the submitter who altered it, should send it back and demand the A grade, but that would be the honest thing to do if the person wasnt trying to defraud someone. because the submitter knows that it was altered, accepting a numerical grade knowing it was altered and not doing anything about it is part of the fraud.

[MattyC]

So if I understand the conspiracy theory that was advanced above correctly, Rick's in cahoots with a guy buying and bumping cards to make what score again?

He'd have to be whacking up these alleged proceeds with...

1. This buyer/bumper...

And...

2. The hypothetical "inside man" at the TPG.

Is this nefarious Parallax View conspiracy theory enterprise so profitable that it is worth it to Rick, when he clearly has a lucrative business running? Is there enough profit in this alleged three-man at minimum operation to go around?

I for one ain't buying this as a consignor issue.

My opinion is worth precisely what any other is of course, but to me this is about wildly inconsistent grading, plain and simple. Everything else is noise and seeing bogeymen. Too many collectors out there treat those red flips like they are the star of the show. The star is the card. If a card has stains and problems and it's a true 7, I don't care what some "professional" grader says it is, be it a 9 or a 5.

The secondary problem, after the grader bumping those cards, is on whoever wants to pay top dollar for a stained 8.5.

If I was to buy a more nefarious scenario, I find the only plausible one to be a two-man affair with a buyer and an inside man at a TPG. Neither of those has, hypothetically, another very high-paying gig. More plausible could be a grader as "boss" who spots the cards and his buyer/subber is merely getting a tiny cut. But a big consignor as part of it just doesn't hold water to me. Not enough profit to risk a good business.

[scooter729]

If Probstein and the buyer are in cahoots to buy/sell a card once, then get it bumped and re-sell it for more with its higher grade, I have one question.....

Why go through the charade of the first transaction? There would be zero point to doing that. Wouldn't they just go straight to their PSA 'insider' and get a higher grade, then sell it once?

There would be no need for the first transaction if indeed there was this grassy knoll conspiracy that many folks believe here....

Or am I missing something by having the first transaction?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by scooter729

Why go through the charade of the first transaction?

The first transaction has to occur for the sake of the original consignor who knows nothing about the process, he only has a card to sell. It has to appear that a legitimate transaction occurs. It makes the process harder to track and it takes the consignor out of the equation (one less person to split the money with). The consignor gets paid based on the original sale price, less fees. He is none the wiser.

Originally Posted by scooter729

Wouldn't they just go straight to their PSA 'insider' and get a higher grade, then sell it once?

If he went straight to PSA for the bump, then the consignor would reap all the reward - there wouldn't be any piece of the pie for anybody else - the consignor gets it all.

Again, that's the point of making it appear as a transaction has occurred. That said, it's a legitimate auction. Anybody can bid. However, I believe that the person set up to win the auction has a pretty high proxy to unsure that he wins.

Last point, maybe it's not Rick himself directly involved in the process. Maybe it's somebody that works for him. But this is the second time in about a year that this has happened (and multiple times from each person) and the MO is exactly the same both times - absolutely no difference - even their geographical locations are the same.

Edited to add: Probstein has to know about this by now. I know for a fact that gpark73 does. Probstein should address the situation and divulge the name of gpark73 who is a card doctor and schiller.

[scooter729]

Thanks David - appreciate the response and I understand the logic of what I was missing before.

Clear me a spot on the grassy knoll now!

[D.P.Johnson]

In case anyone's interested......gpark73 just changed his ebay username to cgseller89.....

[Leon]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

In case anyone's interested......gpark73 just changed his ebay username to cgseller89.....

I think I am missing something. How can he change it and have 399 feedback immediately? (never mind, I see it just rolled over. interesting)

http://myworld.ebay.com/cgseller89/


.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

In case anyone's interested......gpark73 just changed his ebay username to cgseller89.....

Yes, that's why I mentioned earlier that I knew he knew. I wasn't going to say anything about him changing his username just yet, but oh well. He can change it all he wants, but it's still traceable. I guess when the lights are turned on, all the roaches try to go into hiding.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Yes, that's why I mentioned earlier that I knew he knew. I wasn't going to say anything about him changing his username just yet, but oh well. He can change it all he wants, but it's still traceable. I guess when the lights are turned on, all the roaches try to go into hiding.

And thanks to you and the others that keep the light on these people. If they are scurrying then we are doing something right. It's pathetic that someone would change their id instead of just being honest. No doubt they read this board. They ought to come on and explain themselves.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Yes, that's why I mentioned earlier that I knew he knew. I wasn't going to say anything about him changing his username just yet, but oh well. He can change it all he wants, but it's still traceable. I guess when the lights are turned on, all the roaches try to go into hiding.

Sorry about that...I guess the "good" news is he can't change it again for 30 days...BTW, do you know if anyone is trying to find out his real name and address??? I'm pretty sure I can get it but, if I do, can I post it out in the open??? (or, is that against the board rules???)

Thanks.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

Sorry about that...I guess the "good" news is he can't change it again for 30 days...BTW, do you know if anyone is trying to find out his real name and address??? I'm pretty sure I can get it but, if I do, can I post it out in the open??? (or, is that against the board rules???)

Thanks.

No, that is not against board rules. Our board is very open. You have your real name out here so say what you want to. And I know this isn't a concern right now but it's worth repeating that everyone is always legally liable for what they say on a message board. That being said you should not generally post contact info publicly, on this board, without the other parties consent. Exceptions are made where there is fraud involved. Then I don't give a rat's ass about outing the bad guys. Why would I? (but whomever does that better have their ducks in a row )

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Leon

No, that is not against board rules. Our board is very open. You have your real name out here so say what you want to. And I know this isn't a concern right now but it's worth repeating that everyone is always legally liable for what they say on a message board. That being said you should not generally post contact info publicly, on this board, without the other parties consent. Exceptions are made where there is fraud involved. Then I don't give a rat's ass about outing the bad guys. Why would I? (but whomever does that better have their ducks in a row )

Ok. Thanks Leon. Since I can't prove fraud has been committed, I won't publically post his contact information...

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

Ok. Thanks Leon. Since I can't prove fraud has been committed, I won't publically post his contact information...

Schilling is fraud. If you obtain his contact information and prefer not to post it, then PM me with the information and I'll post it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

Ok. Thanks Leon. Since I can't prove fraud has been committed, I won't publically post his contact information...

LOL....yes, I would say that if you accuse someone publicly of fraud you better be able to prove it. If someone accuses me of that then the next call they will get is from my lawyer ....

And there are a ton of new people on the board so to reiterate what everyone knows, who has been on the board a long time, no one including me or any company, advertiser or not, is off limits. I get a little defensive when folks say that I protect any person or company, as I have never done that, nor will I. It goes against what I believe in.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Schilling is fraud. If you obtain his contact information and prefer not to post it, then PM me with the information and I'll post it.

Curt "Schilling", or auction "shilling?"

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Curt "Schilling", or auction "shilling?"

Maybe they're both frauds

[barrysloate]

So you think that bloody sock was a scam?

[Tao_Moko]

If you're willing to pay more money for a number on a flip inside a piece of crap plastic then are you not driving the efforts of those trying to take advantage of it? Are you really a baseball card collector if it's the slip you're concerned with?

I believe there was much less abundant fraud when I bought cards from *bay back in the days prior to rampant grading. Somewhat unrelated - I miss the days of getting "Four Base Hits" in the mail and placing an order hoping that mine arrived first and a card would arrive in a small brown box. That was exciting.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Leon

And thanks to you and the others that keep the light on these people. If they are scurrying then we are doing something right. It's pathetic that someone would change their id instead of just being honest. No doubt they read this board. They ought to come on and explain themselves.

+1

And great work with the explanation David.

Sincerely, Clayton