Over/Underpriced HOFers

[judsonhamlin]

Putting aside short prints and related issues, who do you regard as underpriced and overpriced Hall of Fame players?
On the underpriced front, I would suggest two infielders who seem to be available at or near the HOF minimum: Eddie Collins and Pie Traynor. Both were the best (or maybe 2nd best for Collins) at their respective positions while they were active, but don't cost anywhere near high $ HOFers.
On the overpriced front, I would nominate two pitchers with big personalities, Dizzy Dean and Ed Walsh. I think Dean gets a bump for both his personality and broadcast career and Walsh for a couple of wow seasons, but obviously not a long career.
I'm sure there are other players who could qualify on these lists... Any thoughts?

[Cardboard Junkie]

Depends on the issue of course but in T206's I've always thought Mordecai Brown (portrait) was a little undervalued and one of the most attractive portraits in the set. Of course there is kind of different tiers to hall of famers too, like Walsh, whom you mentioned. Good question. Dave. ps picked up this Brown for less than 100 bucks.

[cyseymour]

Tris Speaker and Nap Lajoie are underpriced imo. I can vibe with the Eddie Collins pick but not Pie Traynor. Traynor was lucky to be in. So was Rube Marquard. I would say Traynor and Marquard are overpriced even if they are lower-tier.

I kinda think Joe DiMaggio cards are underpriced. For a modern player, I would say Derek Jeter. Yes, really.

[rhettyeakley]

Underrated: Agree 100% on Eddie Collins.

Other nominees are John McGraw, Pie Traynor/Jimmy Collins, Charlie Gehringer, Al Simmons, Tim Keefe, and Roger Connor.

Overrated: Reggie Jackson, Hack Wilson, Dizzy Dean, Brooks Robinson.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

I can vibe with the Eddie Collins pick but not Pie Traynor. Traynor was lucky to be in. So was Rube Marquard. I would say Traynor and Marquard are overpriced even if they are lower-tier.

I kinda think Joe DiMaggio cards are underpriced.

Traynor, along with Jimmy Collins are typically viewed as the best 3rd Basemen up to the 1950's... hard to say he is lucky to be in the lowest tier?

About DiMaggio, his cards are literally some of the most expensive in the hobby, and those that are worth more are far superior players IMO. I couldn't disagree with you more on those two.

[cyseymour]

Rhett, you are forgetting to take into consideration the era in which the player played. For instance, Reggie Jackson and Brooks Robinson played in extreme pitching eras and actually put up very good WAR ratings in spite of their raw stats. Factor in Brooks Robinson's outstanding defense and he definitely belongs. Also, a horrible year at age 38 kind of drags down his hitting stats. Traynor has the better stats on the surface, but if you look deeper, Robinson was the better player.

[MattyC]

I agree that Joe DiMaggio is underpriced. To me, egregiously so. I think Gehrig is as well-- when we consider how these two players transcended the sport, entering the realm of pop cultural icon status.

The 56 streak is about as hallowed a record as they come, and the Marilyn Monroe relationship is the stuff of legend.

As to Gehrig, is there another athlete with that same combination of performance height and tragic end? Some may say Clemente, who was a great player and man, but his numbers just do not touch Gehrig's. Then factor in the grace and character with which he handled his disease, what he must have gone through, and to author such a fine historical moment as his famous speech...

In terms of specific cards, I have always thought the Mantle RC was undervalued, considering it is his true RC and so tough to find with serious eye appeal. The centering is just brutal.

I'd have to throw in Ted Williams and Yogi Berra as well. To think Yogi had I believe seven seasons with more HRs than strikeouts, and we're not talking puny power there either. And his cards are so low compared to his illustrious pinstriped peers.

I agree Reggie's "brand" seems way out of sync with the back of his baseball card-- but that one game on that specific stage really did do him wonders.

[bender07]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Traynor, along with Jimmy Collins are typically viewed as the best 3rd Basemen up to the 1950's... hard to say he is lucky to be in the lowest tier?

About DiMaggio, his cards are literally some of the most expensive in the hobby, and those that are worth more are far superior players IMO. I couldn't disagree with you more on those two.

Agreed. I remember my Dad telling me that when he was growing up in the mid 40's (born in '36), the all time team was Gabby, Gehrig, Rajah, Hans, Pie, Spoke, Ty and the Babe. All cool names to boot!

[Bored5000]

Grove Cleveland Alexander always seems undervalued, given where he ranks all-time. Alexander's Cracker Jack cards go for a decent amount, but most Alexander cards seem cheap, relative to his place in baseball history.

I wonder how much of Alexander's card prices are impacted by his reputation as an incorrigible drunk as opposed to the saintly reputation of Christy Mathewson or the general larger than life reputations of Walter Johnson and Cy Young.

[judsonhamlin]

Another candidate for overpriced HOFer could be Connie Mack. On any other team, under any other cicumsataces, he would have been fired by 1918 or so and would never have gotten that many wins as a manager. I get the longevity and respect for "Mr. Mack", but am not sure how that translates into the high prices his E cards command.
I think the case for Alexander being undervalued is compelling, and should rank with Young, Matty and WaJo.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Rhett, you are forgetting to take into consideration the era in which the player played. For instance, Reggie Jackson and Brooks Robinson played in extreme pitching eras and actually put up very good WAR ratings in spite of their raw stats. Factor in Brooks Robinson's outstanding defense and he definitely belongs. Also, a horrible year at age 38 kind of drags down his hitting stats. Traynor has the better stats on the surface, but if you look deeper, Robinson was the better player.

Actually. no I'm not forgetting about the era they played in. I have read more Bill James and SABR-metrics statistical analyses than anyone I know. I understand where you are coming from and part of me agrees but at the end of the day Brooks just wasn't that great of a hitter yet he gets mad kudos from people, the same people that like to say Bill Mazeroski is the worst HOFer...ever. I just feel like a lot of the guys that delve too into statistics tend to have a hard time seeing the forest for the trees. Brooks may very well be the best fielder at his position, but his cards shouldn't be worth more than guys like Frank Robinson and the like, it just defies logic to me.

It seems to me that you are really eager to overlook Robinson's shortcomings (ie hitting) and very quick to denigrate Pie Traynor or Jimmy Collins strengths. I don't agree that Brooks was the better player, and many would agree with me, although I am probably in the minority as Brooks seems to be a fan favorite as people in Baltimore love the guy.

[cyseymour]

Brooks was certainly not on the level of Frank Robinson and honestly I don't follow the card prices for either of them, so I can't comment on that. But in relation to Brooks and Traynor, their eras were so dramatically different that when you look at their hitting, they both posted similar OPS+ (104 to 107). But Brooks had a much longer career than Traynor and was superior defensively at an important position. So I will take Brooks over Traynor anyday. I am not saying that Jimmy Collins and Traynor don't deserve to be in the HOF, just that Brooks Robinson is a first-ballot HOFer who was the greatest defensive 3B-man of all time, a legend in Baltimore, won an MVP and sixteen straight gold gloves.

[RCMcKenzie]

Other than hoping to create a debate, I don't see how stating that Dizzy Dean's cards are overpriced can be taken seriously. He was the last National Leaguer to win 30 games, and my grandfather was a Cardinals fan.

I would guess that Joe Gordon's cards are overpriced, but I don't know how much they go for.

[SMPEP]

Very surprised no one has mentioned Stan Musial as underpriced.

His cards can mostly be had for a song, and you're talking about one of the seriously great players of all time.

Cheers,
Patrick

[D. Bergin]

Looking at the back of Jimmie Foxx's baseball card, it's pretty obvious if he had played for the Yankees (and I'm a Yankee fan), his cards would sell for multiple times what they do now.

[judsonhamlin]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Other than hoping to create a debate, I don't see how stating that Dizzy Dean's cards are overpriced can be taken seriously. He was the last National Leaguer to win 30 games, and my grandfather was a Cardinals fan.

I would guess that Joe Gordon's cards are overpriced, but I don't know how much they go for.

There is no doubt that Dean had a couple of great years, but given his playing career as a whole, I am not sure he is worth multiples of the "base HOF" price in the Goudey or Batter-Up sets. There, he is closer to Lefty Grove than to Dazzy Vance or even Carl Hubbell.

[gavvy]

Chuck Klein cards are very cheap. He may not have been an upper tier HOFer and played in some band boxes but still was NL MVP in 33, led NL in HRs 4 x, had 5 200 hit seasons , and even led the league in SBs in 1932.
His Goudey, Buttercream, Miller, Tattoo cards etc are dirt cheap.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Since both have rookie cards from the same set, 1968 Topps, Johnny Bench is considered by just about everyone to be the best catcher of all-time while Nolan Ryan is far from the best pitcher of all-time. Yet, Ryan typically sells for around 3X what Bench does??? Maybe the inclusion of Jerry Koosman on the Ryan card explains it........

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Since both have rookie cards from the same set, 1968 Topps, Johnny Bench is considered by just about everyone to be the best catcher of all-time while Nolan Ryan is far from the best pitcher of all-time. Yet, Ryan typically sells for around 3X what Bench does??? Maybe the inclusion of Jerry Koosman on the Ryan card explains it........

That is an injustice, for sure. Ryan got a lot of attention for his strikeout numbers and no-hitters, but he also led the league in walks several times. When you factor in the league era, plus Bench's defensive abilities, I would take Bench over Ryan if I were to start a team. And I would take Tom Seaver over Ryan in a heartbeat...

[markf31]

I'll suggest Ralph Kiner. Granted his career was pretty short, lasting only 10 seasons, but the HR numbers he put up in those years are nothing short of impressive. 5 straight season of 40+ homers including 2 seasons of 50+. He led the NL in HRs from 1946-52 and led all the majors in 1947-52. Those 6 consecutive seasons of leading the majors in HRs ties him with Babe Ruth (1926-31) for the most consecutive seasons to lead the majors in HRs.

His 1948 Bowman and 1948 Leaf cards which some consider his RCs as they were the first major sets to feature him, can be had the PSA/SGC 7 range for under $300!

[packs]

I've always thought most of the Old Judge HOFers cards are over priced. I get it, for most of them its their only card and it's cool that there's a photo of the actual player on the card. But there are so many of them out there for a lot of them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The disparity between the price of Mantle and Mays (and Aaron) cards is wholly unjustified in terms of onfield performance.

[cyseymour]

I would take Mays over Mantle. But for Hank Aaron, Aaron was very, very good, but the Mick was great. Aaron had outstanding longevity but never reached the same level of peak performance as Mays or Mantle and I wouldn't put him in the same class, especially since he was a corner outfielder and not a CF.

[billyb]

CY,
I couldn't agree more, Aaron was a great player, but as an owner, I would rather have Mays or Mantle.

Peter,
Yes, there is a disparity between Aaron and Mays/Mantle dispute, as far as onfield performance goes. But that is not how this industry, judges players entirely. It is also their personalities, their fan and media appeal. That raises their value, both as a player for your team and at your gate.
If Ruth had Aaron's personality, he may have hit more home runs, but may be listed as just one of the best, instead of the best. It's what they do for the game, not just their stats.

[Ghumbs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The disparity between the price of Mantle and Mays (and Aaron) cards is wholly unjustified in terms of onfield performance.

I was just about to post this. Besides the issues with Mays' off-field persona, I'm sure the mere fact Mays moved over to the West Coast with the Giants has a lot to do with it. There are just significantly more Yankees and East Coast baseball fans out there (even now, let alone back in the 50s and 60s).

I personally feel Mays is probably best to ever play the game so far. It's just odd that Mantle's card values are head and shoulders above Mays'.

[Fred]

Without changing any stats, move Mantle to Milwaukee and put Aaron in a Yankee uniform... then try to figure out who's under/over priced....

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Very surprised no one has mentioned Stan Musial as underpriced.

His cards can mostly be had for a song, and you're talking about one of the seriously great players of all time.

Cheers,
Patrick

I totally agree Patrick. Musial's problem was he didn't play in New York and he wasn't flashy. Just a genuinely nice guy. Too bad he wasn't signed with Topps in 1952. I would have likee to have seen a Musial 1952 Topps high number!

[Exhibitman]

Spahn and Mathews are undervalued given their relative places among the greats. Spahn especially.

I don't think Gehrig is undervalued relative to the other cards in most of the sets he is in, like with Exhibits, it is usually Ruth-Gehrig as 1-2 in price. He's never going to be at Ruth's level because Ruth was the greatest player [factoring in a HOF caliber pitching career and his batting career no one else is close] and the largest personality in baseball history.

Peak performance versus longevity is a difficult issue. Is Koufax overvalued because his career was so short? Is Aaron undervalued because he was so good for so long? Is it better to burn out than fade away?

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by packs

I've always thought most of the Old Judge HOFers cards are over priced. I get it, for most of them its their only card and it's cool that there's a photo of the actual player on the card. But there are so many of them out there for a lot of them.

I realize this has a lot to do with what people view as tough/scarce/rare, but I disagree with this statement.

Our own cyseymour did an analysis back in 2011 of the number of combined graded examples (PSA and SGC) of the OJ HOFers.

At that time, he found that the total graded examples ranged from a low of 19 examples (W. Robinson) to a high of 113 (Ward). However, 15 out of the 27 (as of 2011) had less than 50 combined graded examples per player.

Of course I know that OJs are known to have a larger-than-normal ungraded population with large collections held by old-school collectors.

But the graded numbers certainly don't reveal easy cards...especially for the tougher 15 HOFers.

Cheers,
Blair

[packs]

I"m mainly talking about players like Clarkson, Keefe and Brouthers. There seem to be a lot of them out there at any given time. Not that "a lot" for OJs means the same a lot for T206s, but some of them don't seem scarce.

[cyseymour]

Clarkson and Keefe were the two best pitchers of their era. Brouthers was the greatest hitter of that time period. You can get their low-grade OJ's with decent images for sub-$1000. I don't think they hold much investment potential, but its hard to see their prices dropping too much, either.

[billyb]

Undervalued, I have just one.....Jim Bunning

One hundred game winner in both American and Nathional League, and always in leaders in Ks. Durable, and professional.
Afterwards, entered politics and represented Kentucky proudly from 1987 to 2010. Wish I had all his stats in front of me, but I am sure you are all aware of his accomplishments after baseball.
Let's give the gentleman from Kentucky, appraise.

[packs]

A guy I think is undervalued is Sam Crawford. His cards are cheap despite him being the first home run king of each league and his astounding amount of triples. Over shadowed by Cobb, but what a hitter (39 hits short of 3,000).

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by MattyC

As to Gehrig, is there another athlete with that same combination of performance height and tragic end? Some may say Clemente, who was a great player and man, but his numbers just do not touch Gehrig's. Then factor in the grace and character with which he handled his disease, what he must have gone through, and to author such a fine historical moment as his famous speech...

Clemente never had the power numbers that Gehrig did, you are absolutely correct, but he was not that kind of player. Remember, too, that Gehrig didn't play in an era dominating by pitching. In the mid to late 60s, pitching ruled the game. Hell, in 1968, Carl Yastrzemski led the American League with a .301 average.

When you're talking about Roberto, you have to factor in more than just his hitting. Clemente was, in my opinion, the greatest defensive right fielder to ever play the game, and I don't think anybody else is close. When you combine fielding instincts, arm strength and accuracy, he's almost untouchable. Only Willie Mays has as many career Gold Gloves as Clemente's 12. As for class and character, how about giving your life trying to help others? Gehrig was dealt a cruel blow, and was graceful in fighting to the end. But Clemente volunteered to head the earthquake relief to Nicaragua. Instead of serving as a figurehead, he got on the plane, and was going to fly down their himself. He didn't just talk, he backed it up, and it cost him his life. Clemente also faced the same bigotry that Jackie Robinson did when he broke to color barrier. Clemente was discriminated against being a dark skinned hispanic. He was outspoken, and proud of his heritage. Why do you think he is still idolized in Latin America?

Both men were great baseball players, and even better men. I greatly respect Gehrig, and realize he never got the respect he deserved while playing in Ruth's shadow. But Clemente was equally great. If he'd played in New York, or Los Angeles, he'd be revered at the same level that Mickey Mantle is.

[packs]

I agree about Clemente. Crazy to think that he almost did get to play in New York and LA for the Dodgers. Wonder how he would be viewed today if he had.

[cyseymour]

Bill is spot on about Clemente. Way underrated. In fact, he is right up there with Gehrig when you adjust for the era, maybe not quite there but if you factor in the defensive abilities, then yes.

Another guy who had an epic career and died tragically was Ed Delahanty. During his prime, he was every bit as good as those other two guys, but some poor stats in his early years as a 2b man drive down his career averages.

[39special]

Originally Posted by billyb

Undervalued, I have just one.....Jim Bunning

One hundred game winner in both American and Nathional League, and always in leaders in Ks. Durable, and professional.
Afterwards, entered politics and represented Kentucky proudly from 1987 to 2010. Wish I had all his stats in front of me, but I am sure you are all aware of his accomplishments after baseball.
Let's give the gentleman from Kentucky, appraise.

+1 He also pitched no hitters in both leagues '58 with Detroit and '64 with Phila.,
a perfect game.Also a 9x all star.

[Leon]

How in the world anyone can think that someone that won 16 Gold Gloves in a row at 3rd base (Brooks Robinson) is underrated, I don't know. Maybe those folks have never played 3rd?

[oldjudge]

I completely disagree about Clemente. He is basically Ichiro with a little extra power. I don't think he is undervalued at all. If Ichiro had played his full career in the U.S. it would be Ichiro first and Clemente an afterthought in the conversation.

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by packs

A guy I think is undervalued is Sam Crawford. His cards are cheap despite him being the first home run king of each league and his astounding amount of triples. Over shadowed by Cobb, but what a hitter (39 hits short of 3,000).

+1 !!!

Cheers,
Blair

[cyseymour]

Ichiro is a very, very good player. But if you adjust for era, Clemente is superior. Clemente has an OPS+ of 130 (thirty percent of league avg production) while Ichiro's OPS+ is only 112. So a significant difference there. Of course, Ichiro played in the steroid era. But he didn't have to deal with the high pitcher's mounds of the Clemente's time period. Ichiro might make it into the Hall, especially if the writers factor in his Japan days, but he is not quite in Clemente's league as a player.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I completely disagree about Clemente. He is basically Ichiro with a little extra power. I don't think he is undervalued at all. If Ichiro had played his full career in the U.S. it would be Ichiro first and Clemente an afterthought in the conversation.

Ridiculous. Clemente would never be an afterthought in any conversation about the position. Ichiro is a great player in his own regard, but he played in an era where offense dominated the game. Clemente did not.

From 1960 until the end of his career, 13 years (from age 25 on), Clemente won 12 Gold Gloves, 4 batting titles (and finished second two other times. He finished in the top 5 in batting 9 out of the 12 seasons he qualified), hit .330 overall and averaged 207 hits per 162 games played. This while consistently facing such greats as Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal, Warren Spahn, Gaylord Perry, Don Drysdale, Tom Seaver, Jim Bunning, Don Sutton, Steve Carlton, Fergie Jenkins and Phil Niekro.

And that's not even considering his greatness in the field. He has 254 career assists, most in baseball history by a right fielder. Total zone runs above average by a right fielder, Clemente is #1 overall with 204. The next closest player is Al Kaline at 155. Ichiro is fifth with 109, but on a per year basis, he is way behind the Great One. Ichiro's average is 8.38. Clemente's yearly average is 11.3.

[Cardboard Junkie]

+1 What Bill said! Dave.

[oldjudge]

Ichiro spent some of his best years in Japan. Here is the comparison based on a 162 game season:

Clemente: .317, 94 runs, 16 hrs, 87 RBIs, 6 SB
Ichiro: .320, 100 runs, 9 hrs, 55 RBIs, 38 SB

Over his 18 year career Clemente won 12 gold gloves
Over his 13 year career in the US Ichiro won 10 gold gloves

Ichiro was also competing clean in an era dominated by steroids. Ichiro had the best arm in RF for most of his career and even at his advanced age still has one of the best arms in baseball.

And, since neither player was a power hitter, I have looked at the average league leading BA in their respective league during their career. The average NL league leading BA during Clemente's career was .343. The average league leading BA in the AL during Ichiro's career was .347. These are almost identical, despite the steroid affect during Ichiro's career.

[the 'stache]

How, exactly then, does Clemente become "an afterthought"?

[the 'stache]

And if we're comparing 162 game averages, do it right. Ichiro was 27 when he came to the US to play in the Majors. So, compare their careers from age 27 on.

Clemente: .329 AVG, 101 runs, 30 doubles, 12 triples, 19 HR, 95 RBI, 7 SB .376 OBP/.502 SLG/.877 OPS

Ichiro: .320 AVG, 100 runs, 26 doubles, 6 triples, 9 HR, 55 RBI, 38 SB .363 OBP/.416 SLG/.779 OPS

When compared this way, Clemente's OPS is nearly 100 points higher.

[oldjudge]

BTW, Ichiro's seven year Japanese career is even more impressive:

BA-.359, 17 HR, 74 RBI and 28 SB on average

I saw both play and I would rather have Ichiro on my team.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Ichiro might make it into the Hall, especially if the writers factor in his Japan days, but he is not quite in Clemente's league as a player.

"Might". If Ichiro doesn't make it into the Hall in 5 Ballots or less I will send you a t206 HOFer.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

BTW, Ichiro's seven year Japanese career is even more impressive:

BA-.359, 17 HR, 74 RBI and 28 SB on average

I saw both play and I would rather have Ichiro on my team.

Those numbers are impressive for Japanese baseball. However, I doubt Ichiro was seeing anybody like Sandy Koufax or Bob Gibson in Japan.

You could take Ichiro, that's fine. I don't have any problem with your preferring one player to another. But saying Clemente would be "an afterthought" if Ichiro had played his entire career in America is simply ridiculous.

[cyseymour]

The trouble is that Japanese baseball is like AA ball. Comparing its stats to the majors is useless, unless you believe that Saduharu Oh is truly the greatest baseball player of all time.

Everything is babble but if you look at it, Ichiro had the advantages on the basepaths and Clemente was a better defender. But Clemente still produced at the plate much more than Ichiro.

It wasn't just steroids that made Ichiro's era more offensive than Clemente's - Clemente was facing off against a higher pitcher's mound which made it much more difficult for the batter as you are picking up the ball from a sharper angle.

But the metrics say that Clemente was a much better hitter. It is as simple as that.