Would the Hobby welcome a new TPG Co.that was high tech?

[T205 GB]

For aboyut the last 6-7 yrs I have had an idea on how to stop isues with TPG's and some of the fraud we see taking place by people. It has only been in the last few yrs that the technology has came about to build a format and the software I need to properly do this. Actually the technology has been around just way to expensive for people to afford. I would love to build this system and start grading cards based on what technology says and not what opinions are. This is kinda what I have planned and would love to hear feedback about what you guys think since we all here care more than most about our great hobby.

Authentication will be done by several people that are very knowledgeable and then passed to Analist once the item has been deamed ok.

The card will be viewed and blacklighted under a high resolution scan and posted to a large screen for grading. The scanning process will identify a minimum of 20 unique characteristics and give the card a so called finger print(This can be used and cross referenced by the hobby to verify the item in a case is the one thats supposed to be there, or if it has passed through the system and cracked out to be altered the person has proof the card in question is the one that was graded and is altered). The great thing about identifying all the issues is it helps in the accuracy of grading the card itself and creating a very accurate pop report.

Also a service for raw cards will be available. A lot of collectors prefer raw cards and for a very minimal fee compared to grading you can have the peace of mind that the cards you sell raw are clean and documented as such. Idea for them would be to encolse them in a semiridged card saver with a cert # embossed onto them. A simple scan and upload for comparison is all that needed to verify its the correct card.

If using a smart phone app is something I am looking at so you can do a scan and verify on site. Yes the cards will be removable because whats the point in sealing them up to a raw collector.

There is a lot more to go with all of this but thats just a brief summary of what I am thinking.


Would any of you guys use this service or think there is a need for it?

[kmac32]

Kind of like instant replay in MLB. Eliminate the human error in grading?

[vintagecpa]

I would think the technology should exist that a card could be scanned by a TPG, and they would have some type of record that the card was already submitted in the past or the wrong card is in the holder. It would be a similar technology in which peoples identity can be recognized by facial recognition software. For example, it I think the technology should exist that if someone submits a raw Art Shell card, the company could immediately tell from a simple scan that the card once resided in a PSA 8 holder and wouldn't be as quick to bump the card up.

Now, the price for this technology would obviously impact the cost of grading and you would have to have some type of cooperation with all TPG companies. I'm not sure how much of an appetite exists for that considering the vast majority of collectors don't play in this universe.

I know a few years ago, there was an individual that was trying to sell people the idea of taking detailed pictures to get a forensic history of a card. I do think there might be a market for some type of higher-end grading service, especially with high-dollar cards. IMO, as the fraudsters get better and better, collectors will require more proof that they are buying legitimate cards before plunking down large amounts of money.

[arc2q]

I definitely agree there would be demand at the top of the market for a higher-end service. It does seem a little funny to see Honus Wagner, Eddie Plank, and Baltimore Sun Ruth rookie cards in PSA or SGC holders. In effect, it would be like taking an original Monet to the local framing store around the corner. I am not disparaging those TPGs...in fact, they could be the ones offering the higher end of service...but it seems odd that a million $ card would be put in the same holder as any other card with a minimal level of assurance and protection.

There really ought to be holder and a method of documenting high-value cards that goes beyond the basic service. We have all seen pretty good knock-offs of PSA holders, for example, that could easily fool most collectors.

I think the need is there but it would cost a lot. And barriers to entry into the TPG business seem steep. Such innovations may have to come from within the big three.

[T205 GB]

Andy the design of my holder is a Lexan plastic in a deep gray/near black color with a clear area for the flip that is etched in and not inserted.

As far as cost for the program to be developed as well as a software program and scanner I can say it is going to be a costly sum but the pattent will make it worth it in the long run. I do not intend on charging a retared sum of money for this service either. Try to stay at or lower than TPG's now. The hobby will appreciate it more and in return the dividends may be small but will add up over time. Steady wins the race

[SMPEP]

My vote would be .. yes I think people would be interested.

But the one thing that a good TPG should be doing in my opinion ... maintain a database with front/back scans of all the cards they grade .... so that before someone buys a card ... they can look it up and see if it's the same card. After all, anyone can produce a fake PSA slab and label. They can stick anything in there. And you will never know. But if you have the ability to see if it looks like what the company graded ... then at least there's one more check that this is accurate.

I also like the idea of having the owner's name of that card associated with it. As it changes hands, the seller/buyer can update. Some may not want to have their names associated with their cards - so it could be voluntary instead of mandatory. But this would be yet another way to verify the card. If I know XXX owns it, and YYY is selling it on Ebay ... that's a pretty good red flag there.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Patrick

[conor912]

I might be interested in a service that inspects a card, deems it authentic and unaltered (or not) but does not assign a grade to it. I, as the collector, will decide what grade I think it is. Also, said company should let me choose what kind of holder I want it in (semi-rigid, top loader, mylar sleeve...whatever) then put a small tamper-proof seal over it to avoid switch-out.

[travrosty]

tpa's arent that bright to take a "fingerprint" photo of every card, they dont have the time. it's bag and slab and move on.

you have to believe in yourself, you have to refine the process, into a proof of concept. I agree the high end is the way to go if you have a safecracker proof system.

the downside is that the collectors who own these high end cards usually have them in a registry set, that is the hook psa set up to keep them in psa holders, which i dont like. but you have to invent the system and prove it first, then the customers will be there if it works great and it is a better mousetrap.

[T205 GB]

It's not about the high end collector. I am after the everyday collector and some piece of mind when buying and selling. The high end collector is welcome but not what I am focused on catering to.

[GasHouseGang]

I think the constant complaints you hear about the current TPGs proves something better is needed. Whether what you propose is it, remains to be seen. But if you can create something that can basically uniquely identify each card, provide a more accurate and repeatable grading standard, and do it for the same cost, then I think you may have a winner.

[ullmandds]

I don't see how it'd be possible to do that for the same cost?

[steve B]

The cost will need to be higher. Software is expensive to produce, and also needs to be maintained as operating systems change and get updated.

But I do think there's a lot of room for a higher end service.

One that maintained a database of images of the graded cards would be good, especially if the scans were at higher resolutions. (Plus, if it could be worked out legally the images could possibly be licensed to auction houses, saving them the effort of creating scans. Not perfect, since the case could be damaged or scratched, but a possible way to recoup some of the data storage costs)

For many cards I don't think the digital fingerprint will work all that well. In new condition a manufactured item should be identical to the one made before and after. For an older worn card it would work, but if newer cards or very high grade cards are done, there would eventually be problems.

The unslabbed certification and grading is the standard for stamps. PSE will slab them, but it just hasn't gained acceptance in that market. For a good look at how it's done check out the Philatelic Foundation. http://www.philatelicfoundation.org/.../expertize.htm
Their service starts at $27, with a select group of less expensive items being discounted to $20. Approximately 30 day turnaround unless you want it quicker which costs more.

The most difficult things will be handling stuff that won't show in a scan, and the cards that don't easily fit a particular grade.

For instance this Konetchy. There's a tiny flake of surface missing from one corner. if it's seen as paperloss then they got the grade right. And yet I've seen cards with corners more rounded than what's been lost that graded as 60


Or, cards with factory but unusual features. This Needham was rejected because of rough but factory cuts top and bottom. I can see why they'd decline grading, most people wouldn't understand the difference in edge quality between the normally sharp blade and the worn blade and sacrificial strip that caused the rough cut, and would think it was trimmed.


Both of those would give a computer program trouble.

Size variance would also be problematic, I've had one rejected for min size vertically, but another in the same submission that was narrower by a differenc that was more than the difference in height than the rejected one and it got a grade. I have a few I like a lot, but won't send in since I know they're too short to get a grade even though they're factory cut.

I'd like to see a premium service work, and work well. And I've considered doing something as well. (More of a traditional grading but having an available detailed explanation of the grade. How many times do we see cards with an MK qualifier but can't find the mark?) But looking at it as a business, it's a massive uphill climb to even get into a solid fourth place. A registry that recognized other companies might help, but probably not much. So there's a load of upfront cost, and a need for massive ongoing advertising.

The cert for raw cards idea is the workable one. Maybe it would generate enough to support the premium service, maybe not.

Steve B

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

My vote would be .. yes I think people would be interested.

But the one thing that a good TPG should be doing in my opinion ... maintain a database with front/back scans of all the cards they grade .... so that before someone buys a card ... they can look it up and see if it's the same card. After all, anyone can produce a fake PSA slab and label. They can stick anything in there. And you will never know. But if you have the ability to see if it looks like what the company graded ... then at least there's one more check that this is accurate.

I also like the idea of having the owner's name of that card associated with it. As it changes hands, the seller/buyer can update. Some may not want to have their names associated with their cards - so it could be voluntary instead of mandatory. But this would be yet another way to verify the card. If I know XXX owns it, and YYY is selling it on Ebay ... that's a pretty good red flag there.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Patrick

I agree with Patrick. I think there is a demand for this service on most pre-war cards. Post-war or new shiny stuff...I am not so sure where that dividing line runs.

As a collector looking for making a potential buyer "sure" the card I am selling is the one I had graded and encapsulated, I would absolutely pay more to have my card scanned and kept on file somewhere. How many others would do this? I am not too sure.

Good points and I have always thought a scanning service along with grading service to verify card grade would be useful

Z Wheat.

[Zach Wheat]

It would be hard to accurately grade issues like n172's with this service. I collect this set as well and pretty much do not pay attention to grades anyway, but rather the image quality.

I find it slightly humorous that some high graded N172's have a highly faded image while other low graded card have way more eye appeal.

Z Wheat

[egbeachley]

Here is a comment I made on this Board over 4 years ago. The only difference is that I think it would be expensive. But maybe not too bad if it's only for high priced cards.



The future is with a small boutique-like company with tamper-proof holders, hologram flips, Computer grading, and on-line scans of all the cards for comparison purposes. That will be expensive, but there may be a market for it.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by steve B

The cost will need to be higher.

It all comes down to, "what can you reasonably expect someone to pay to get a card slabbed?." PSA has already priced themselves out of the market for a lot of collectors (including me, if I was into slabbing) at $17/card. Granted, there are bulk discounts, blah blah blah, but you get my point.

[T205 GB]

I know the cost is gonna be high for a majority of the software and the scanner to be built properly. I have been looking into this for a while now. I want to be able to provide a reasonable service at a reasonable fee that will give the hobby some peace of mind in what they are buying. Embossing the "flip" eliminates counterfeiting for that case. The cert number will be linked to large high res scans for viewing with the identifiers. The cases are going to be made of lexan which is a truly tough plastic and is hard to crack and scratch. The case will be put together in a different manner also virtually eliminating cards being cracked out without us doing it.

Every card made has its own identifying marks. Even the new shiny stuff. The program is designed to find all these marks and flaws. People who cross over cards will get the accurate grade for the card. Some guys will not be happy but I think overall fair and accurate grading will prevail. I am not looking to make my return back in the first few yrs by gouging the hobby in fees. The business plan is to take time and be accurate. I'm not gonna grade a $1000000 card any faster than a $10 card. Some may not like this but I don't think it's fair to the normal collector that they have to wait longer because someone else has a ton of money. As the company grows there will probably be a service that allows faster grading and people that soley handle that while the other people concentrate on the regular submissions. Labeling of errors and such shouldn't cost $75+. Maybe a few extra buck for the line would be fine but not that much. I don't want to take advantage of the hobby but make it a safer place. If any of you know me you know I have quite a passion for the hobby and am not afraid to call BS. Sometimes I'm wrong but sometimes I'm not. I want my kids to enjoy this and their kids to do the same for as long a there are cards available.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by conor912

It all comes down to, "what can you reasonably expect someone to pay to get a card slabbed?." PSA has already priced themselves out of the market for a lot of collectors (including me, if I was into slabbing) at $17/card. Granted, there are bulk discounts, blah blah blah, but you get my point.

I think Andrew is on to something. His post about service levels etc. I think is the right way to go about it. The stamp authentication place is $20 for some stuff, $27 or a percentage of the catalog value with a max fee of $625. NO discounts that I'm aware of except APS, one of the other major expertizing services is cheaper for members. (And the membership is inexpensive.) If the item is inexpensive enough that that expense is too much then it shouldn't be sent in.

I have a bunch that should be sent in, but I do my own examining, and I've become confident in getting it right. (Aside from a couple types of paper that give me difficulty) maybe someday if I decide to consign them I'll get it done.
I have sent in some cards, and it's actually sort of fun, in a way as exciting as buying them all over again.

Not rushing the authentication and grading is a big thing too. The stamp places are typically 30 days for Philatelic foundation, 45-90 for APEX, and PSE is 30-40 days. Some special items take longer. The longest I've heard of is around 5 years, and the results were published as a book.
But then, the subjects had been controversial since 1922.

http://www.thestampcollector.net/grinnell.html

And yes, they were found in a trunk in grandpas attic, and the judge in 1922 found that story nearly unbelievable Some things dont really ever change.....

I still doubt that every example of any particular card has unique identifiers from any other, but I figure that's ok.

I'm hoping Andrew makes it work and makes it successful. It'll be a lot of hard work, but even if all that happens is that the bar is raised for everyone and the hobby grows up a bit it will be worth it.

Steve B