what do ya'll think - Zeenut w/o coupon

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Posted By: leonl

My thinking is this is too high of a grade...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1868134216


regards all

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Posted By: David

Who let the shrub on the field?

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Posted By: jay behrens

definately too high. It's missing part of the card so can be no higher than VG.

Jay

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

and some do indeed have coupons. But, he explained, those coupons were worth real stuff, like a catcher's mit, a real baseball, or a radio (later). What kid wouldn't tear them off, and during the depression, what adult?

That's why so few Zeenuts with coupons are found. I believe Lemke lists them without coupons.

I'm going to check, and if I don't come back, I was right about Lemke.

Among all his listings, beginning in 1911, only the 1922, and the 1933-36 (one set) have coupons. Yet he gives three grades.

I think Mark is prouder of his Zeenuts with Coupons than any other feature of any other card.

I'd say, a coupon demands a premium, but a card can be called near mint without one.

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Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

Julie-I just placed an order with Mark recently. He sent out scans real quick and told me how he graded the W series cards which was really helpful.
BTW-In the Vintage and Classic issue #9 you were referring to earlier-Macrae had a huge sale of Zeenuts. You can check it out to see how he graded them and if they had tabs.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

for those who don't subscribe?

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

and he never mentions the word "coupon." All but 4 or 5 cards are ZeeNuts. One ZeeNut is graded "ex-mint--nearmint" (number 2). Most are lower grades, and he explains what's wrong with most cards. What were you trying to prove?

My ZeeNuts are all Blacksox, except Sleepy Bill Burns who was a Blacksox gambler, and most of them are in --not the best shape. The best is Lefty Williams, with only 2 creases. My McMullin is spiderwebbed with creases--and I paid $600 dollars for it (but I may have paid a premium for Buck Barker's writing all over the bcak). No coupons.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

Mark says, a well-cut ZeeNut, no coupon he would grade nearmint; a coupon is a premium over that.

He says he's owned about 110,000 ZeeNuts, and guesses that maybe under 2,000 (NOT all his by any means) have coupons. He owns 650.

Not all oysters will have pearls, he says.

CORRECTION: ONE coupon wouldn't get you a prize. Each year, the company put out a list of premiums, and how many coupons you had to collect to get each.

For 5 cents, you got candy and 1 card, with coupon.

3 types of kids: baseball fans, liked photos. 2) 1919-- early 30s: game: ZeeNut shooting. 3) no interest in gambling or baseball, wanted coupons for prizes.

(all three of these are from different times)

25 coupons--baseball, key chain, toe or heel plate for your shoes, jump rope, collapsable cup, water pistol,
pencil box.

800 coupons: a tool set, a punching bag, a football, tennis racket, soccer ball, catcher's mit, fieldr's glove, wrist watch

500--pepper martin fielder's glove, football.

Of course, what we don't know is what the QUALITY of these things was. We must asssume the 800 coupon football was better than the 500 coupon. But how big, how good a tool set? A leather punching bag? Aregulation football, mit, glove? What kind of tennis racket. 800 coupons--that's $40! You could practically buy a car for that! (Well, not quite...)

It may have just been the trading instinct in kids--whatever you have is better than whatever I have. And of course, no one knew that ZeeNuts with coupons qwould ever be worth anything.

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Posted By: Paul

I'd have to agree with Mark Macrae (not a hard thing to do). If you downgraded a card just because it didn't have a coupon, then you would have to call it trimmed, and poor condition at best. I think all Zeenut collectors would agree that a nice card without a coupon is not in poor condition.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Then how do you grade a George Miller that has had the coupon trimmed off?

With coupons and w-cards, I think the old school has lost the battle of grading standards and the hobby standard now is that trimming of coupons from the card and strips being seperated no longer affects the grade of the card.

Jay

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Posted By: Paul

I think George C. Millers are different because they had no coupon. The company just whacked off the bottom half of the card. In my opinion (and it's only my opinion), it would be reasonable to grade these cards as poor (but still gradeable). I'd still grade an otherwise excellent Zeenut with no coupon as excellent.

When you get right down to it, it's all just a matter of convention. If collectors generally view Zeenuts without coupons as whole cards, the smart grading companies will grade them accordingly. If collectors feel the same about George C. Miller's, then grading companies will probably follow suit there too. But, it seems to me it will be real tough to come up with a standard where a coupon-less card can never grade any higher than VG, or EX, or whatever grade above poor you pick. If a grading company or a dealer was using such a standard, he would have to be very clear and up front about what he was doing.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

So I doubt he'd have an opinion about the grading companies (actually, he probably does, but it's too late to call him tonight). The George C. Millers are definitely different--either 1/3 of the actual picture is wackerd off, or the guy looks like he has smallpox. Ugh.

What do you think about Red Mans? I don't collect them myself, byut I know they come with and without tabs.

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Posted By: Paul

I think Red Mans are the same as Zeenuts. They have a coupon. You were supposed to cut it off. So, you grade a card with no coupon like any other card, and you add a premium if it has a coupon. The tougher question is what to do if it has a badly damaged coupon. Can you really call a card "good" if, by cutting off the coupon, it suddenly becomes near mint?

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Posted By: leon

I am going to have to have a personal disagreement here (and I might be the only one with this thought). I am not doubting anyone's expertise here, especially Mark's, as he has probably forgotten three times as much as I know....but, I still think a card that is without coupon should not be above gd...I am a stickler on these things (personally) and only have a Zeenut w/coupon....and will soon sell my D381 Flieschman w/o coupon as I found one w/coupon....also, as a type collector I want to see ALL of the card, however it came....even though the tab or coupon might be generic....just my lonely view....regards all

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Posted By: runscott

...must have the entire box attached? What about the actual cereal?

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Posted By: leon

It's probably good with milk

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

.Nobody said it wasn't even BETTER to have ZeeNut with a coupon than a great one without, and I would think especially for a type collector, the coupon would be desirable.


I was beginning to wonder what to do about ther serial when my Wheaties box got squashed. Stake cerial is the pits--does it get stale in a sealed bag inside ther box?

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Posted By: David

I've never been into steak cerial myself, either. I don't eat red or white meat, so stick to the fish cerial.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I've seen collections that have the entire box flattened. Never seen a box that still had the cereal.

One of my favorite Rosen stories is the time he was advertizing buying 1930s Wheaties cards. He was at a show in SF and I offered him a complete run of Wheaties, including the 1939 100th anniversary set, all on boxes that were only missing their end flaps. He turned them down stating he already had all the Wheaties cards that he needed, LMFAO! Like he was ever buying them at that prices advertized to begin with. Whe he later was offering Wheaties cards for sale/auction, there wasn't a single complete box in the lot. Hmmmm, me thinks he was setting the market price with buy ad after buying real cheap before placing the ad

That was the begining of "I'm not your wholesaler, you are just another customer to me" comment I made to Rosen later in the show when he wanted me to give him a big break on a some cards he wanted from my table.

Jay

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Posted By: David

The 1939 100th Anniversary set is tough to find, though not as nice looking as the others.