1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards ?

[griffon512]

Maybe I missed it in the novella, but it is unclear to me how you are distinguishing "Sport Star Subjects" from "Bond Bread." Please explain it clearly so a layman could make the distinction if analyzing the two different sets, or maybe someone else can if there is validity to it. If there is not a clear distinction in appearance than the presumption you are making below is just based on how packaging differences are likely to impact the condition of the cards, rather than other objective data.

"Most cards with white-backs and rounded corners attributed as 'Bond Bread' cards in a grade of 'Ex' or better apparently come from the 'Sport Star Subjects' set, not Bond Bread packages."

[cardinalcollector]

The SH45 card of Bobby Doerr is a 1975 Sport Hobbyist collectors issue. They have been cataloged in the SCD catalog.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by cardinalcollector

The SH45 card of Bobby Doerr is a 1975 Sport Hobbyist collectors issue. They have been cataloged in the SCD catalog.

Thank you. It's not in my 1988 SCD edition.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by griffon512

Maybe I missed it in the novella, but it is unclear to me how you are distinguishing "Sport Star Subjects" from "Bond Bread." Please explain it clearly so a layman could make the distinction if analyzing the two different sets, or maybe someone else can if there is validity to it. If there is not a clear distinction in appearance than the presumption you are making below is just based on how packaging differences are likely to impact the condition of the cards, rather than other objective data.

"Most cards with white-backs and rounded corners attributed as 'Bond Bread' cards in a grade of 'Ex' or better apparently come from the 'Sport Star Subjects' set, not Bond Bread packages."

The Bond Bread package insert cards and the Sport Star Subjects set were not issued on the same date. Right now, the market place and particularly those hyping their cards for sale and card grading services do not distinguish between them. That has caused the all of these cards to be attributed to Bond Bread. Without a distinction between the two issues, the current market price for these cards is inaccurately derived from what people think Bond Bread insert cards are worth even though they may be unwittingly buying cards from the Sport Star Subjects set. Higher or lower, each set has to find its own value in an honest marketplace based on what it is and not rumor, misdescription or the hyperbole of sellers and grading card services.

As stated in Appendix A - Part One (Working) above: "The purpose of this Appendix is not to put names on these sets. That will be done in the body of this article as its parts are posted. Rather, this Appendix is an attempt to identify all of the issues that have been attributed in someway or another as a “1947 Bond Bread “ card or set."

Appendix A - Part Three (Working), to which you responded, provided a brief description of the repeated use of initially identical molded lead die cuts derived from the same master halftone print to produce the large quantities of an individual player's cards over time and how such cuts became flawed, wore down during the printing process and were replaced. That process will be fully explained in the main text.

Part Three of this Appendix, also briefly identified the problems with attributing the voluminous quantities printed of a player's card to an individual die-cut. Details about the printing were left to the main text. The Sport Star Subject cards were printed in much smaller quantities than the Bond Bread cards. By best estimate those printings were in quantities equivalent to about one or two days supply of cards that would be needed for cards to be inserted in Bond Bread packages. [Added note: The equivalent of about 20,000 sets makes up one day's supply of bread package inserts or only about 4-5 die cuts per player per day.]

The specific wear and other flaws on the small quantity of die cuts used in the printing of the Sport Star Subjects sets can be identified so that some distinction can be made between the two sets. Otherwise, all of the cards look the same. You and anyone else can help by posting scans of cards that came from Sport Star Subjects boxes. Such detail cannot be a one person project, but must be a collaborative effort. Together, we can get to an end of this.

Griffon512, Thanks for your post,

Mike

[abctoo]

The 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread inserts and Cards and Photos from the era with like and similar pictures.

APPENDIX A – Part Four (Working)

4. “Sport Star Subjects” 48 card set, issued in a series of 4 boxes of 12 different cards each.

Characteristics:

1. printed on one side

2. White Paper Stock, of the same low quality as the Bond Bread cards

3. Corners

a. Square, or
b. Rounded, with the same distinctive die-cut of most of the Bond Bread insert cards.

4. Size

a. The rounded cornered cards are the same size as the Bond Bread insert cards with the same distinctive die-cutting.

5. Printing

a. As with the Bond Bread insert cards, a player's picture was printed on white paperstock from molded lead die-cuts engraved from the same half-tone picture. The sharpness of the original picture molded in each lead die-cut degraded a little bit each time its raised parts transferred ink to the paper. When sufficiently deteriorated, a die-cut was replaced with another one, virtually identical to the one being replaced, except with its image not yet worn down. With hundreds of die-cuts used to print the tremendous quantity of Bond Bread cards, the insufficient supply of such cards now makes it virtually impossible to identify any particular Bond Bread insert card to a particular die-cut.

However, with only a limited number of die-cuts used to print the Sport Star Subjects set, its die-cuts can be identified from the individual wear and other printing defects shown that occurred during its printing process. High resolution scans of cards that can be assured to have come from Sport Star Subject set boxes could be compared to unidentified cards to see if the Sport Star Subjects defects are present. If yes, then the card comes from a Sport Star Subject set. Of course, such method would not be 100% accurate because the first cards printed from a new die-cut would not have the pronounced progressive printing defects of those printed later from the same die-cut.

Anyone who can provide high resolutions scans of the fronts of any Sport Star Subjects card (not Bond Bread card) are welcomed to post them here so the comparison can begin. Perhaps, a master list of Sport Star Subjects cards will evolve that will eliminate the confusion between the two sets.

6. Packages (Boxes?)

a. Four Packages of 12 cards each, the entire set issued in separate series

i. Series 1 – Green
ii. Series 2 – Red
iii. Series 3 – Brown
iv. Series 4 – Blue

b. The boxes and the cards were die-cut by the same company that die-cut the Bond Bread package insert cards.

c. The back of the package

i. Top right back of each package is printed with “No. 600” regardless of series.



ii. Initially, all of the backs of boxes I had seen were of the variety shown above. At first glance, it appeared to be a printing error as what was printed near the top left was not clearly readable. Many of us attempted to “translate” the unintelligible text. All of the boxes of the Screen Star Subjects set I had seen at that time also had the same imprinting – some gibberish with “No. 600,” the same number as the Sport Star Subjects set. Subsequently, I located a Screen Star Subjects set which made clear what the gibberish was.



It was an intentional obscuring of the text “W.S. / N.Y.” shown in the scan above. The question now becomes whether the Sport Star Subjects set was likewise initially printed with the “W.S. / N.Y.” imprint or whether it started out in a package already containing the obliterated text. Anyone who can produce a scan of the front and back of a Sports Star Subjects package with the “W.S. / N.Y.” imprint is requested to do so. Right now, we can only assume the Sports Star Subjects set package was printed from artwork with the readable indicia shown on some of Screen Star Subjects packages already obliterated.

The back of the Series 2 package of the W673 Navy Ships / Airplanes set of 36 cards shown in Posts #123 and #126 above is inscribed, “A.J. WIlDMAN & SON. NEW YORK 11. N.Y.. NADE IN U.S.A., No. 1841”.

Caution: Do not attempt to draw premature conclusions from what you know about the date of issue of the Navy Ships / Airplanes set to establish a date for either the Sport Star Subjects or the Screen Star Subjects sets. It's a bit more complicated than that and will be explained in the main text.

d. Which sports cards were in which Box?

i. Few boxes have survived intact. Most of those were opened one, two or more at the time. The same cards were not necessarily returned to the box from which they came. Many collectors sorted them by team or in alphabetical order. Sheet reconstruction may help resolve the issue.


More to come.

Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by griffon512

Maybe I missed it in the novella, but it is unclear to me how you are distinguishing "Sport Star Subjects" from "Bond Bread." Please explain it clearly so a layman could make the distinction if analyzing the two different sets, or maybe someone else can if there is validity to it. If there is not a clear distinction in appearance than the presumption you are making below is just based on how packaging differences are likely to impact the condition of the cards, rather than other objective data.

Okay James, You want an answer on how to distinguish the Bond Bread insert cards from Sport Star Subjects cards. I assume we all want the same for the Festberg remainders and other related cards too.

While picture defects in the halftone master used to make all of the molded lead die-cuts used to print the Bond Bread inserts, the Sport Star Subjects, and the Festberg remainders will all be consistent throughout, the specific die-cut defects of those cuts used to print the Sport Star Subject cards will be different than those on the die-cuts used to print original Bond Bread inserts. The Festberg remainder find is reported to have contained less than 5,000 of each card, which could mean that only one die-cut per player was used in printing the cards in the hoard.

We need genuine examples of Bond Bread insert cards to compare against genuine examples of Sport Star Subjects cards to see what non-consistent printing flaws appear on Sport Star Subjects cards. Only one of each original Bond Bread insert card would be sufficient to identify the differences. However, with more than one die-cut per player used to print the estimated quantity of Sport Star Subjects sets made, more than one of each player card from the Sport Star Subjects set will be needed to fully identify all varieties. The cards from one Sport Star Subjects set will give us a good start.

We all owe a thanks to David M., member GasHouseGang, who had the foresight to give us in Post #216 above pictures of the complete Sport Star Subjects set that sold on eBay in May 2020 for $4545. David did the best he could, and acknowledges no higher resolution scans were available from eBay. Those scans may help us identify some rudimentary die-cut flaws distinctions of that set, but without high resolution scans the real details cannot be seen. Scans of cards should be made of cards taken outside of any sleeves, slabs or anything else that could distort the image.

Here is what I propose:

Ted, you started this. You have original Bond Bread cards taken from Bond Bread packages that you collected way back then. If you would kindly post a high resolution scan of the front of each different original package insert card you have, we would have a base from which to identify the distinctive printing flaws of Sport Star Subjects cards that are not on the master halftone from which the die-cuts used to print all of the cards were made. From other scans you have posted in this thread, it seems that you are able to provide sufficiently high resolution to make distinctions even when you post cards in groups of four, six or so. You know the limitations of your scanner and can post accordingly. If you cannot post all the different cards, perhaps, others can fill in the blanks?

I will post most of the cards from the Festberg remainders, as I have many of them loose in card sleeves.

I would ask anyone who has access to any card(s) from the Sports Star Subjects set to post a good scan of the front of the card(s). Both rounded and square corner cards are needed.

If anyone has any other ideas on how we can do this, let us know.

Thanks, Mike

[phikappapsi]

man this has been a lot of words for an "i dunno"

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by phikappapsi

man this has been a lot of words for an "i dunno"

I didn't say "I dunno". As I have repeated said in this Appendix, its purpose is to identify the issues, not resolve them, and that would appear in the main text of this article. I have been researching and drafting for that part a reasonable explanation of how to generally tell Bond Bread cards from Sport Star Subjects cards. People accept the absolute opinion of grading card services as to what is a "Bond Bread" card and spend money based on their false conclusions. With every general rule, there may be exceptions. Your response is appreciated because it indicates the need for a rule without potential exceptions before many will consider the issue has resolution and any change in current identifications will be made.

I specifically requested the posting of precise information which if provided will eliminate such exceptions to a rule and fully define the difference between Bond Bread package insert cards and Sport Star Subject cards. If you have any cards you can guarantee are original Bond Bread insert or Sport Star Subjects cards, please post them. Do not dismiss the prior request for posting of cards as many may not be satisfied with just a general rule.

Thanks, Mike

[tedzan]

For you new members that don't know me, as a kid I collected Sportscards from 1947 to 1952. I returned to this great hobby in 1977. I was fortunate to recover all my
original collection from my youth (which included my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards).
All these years, I have never seen beveled-cornered cards in boxes such as the Sport Star Subjects ones. I have (or had) the SQUARE cornered cards from these boxes,
Baseball and Movie Stars.



Really, it absolutely defies common sense for the BB cards in the Sport Star Subjects boxes to have ROUNDED corners.

What I suspect is that either the original 1947 BOND BREAD cards were "stuffed" into these 4 boxes....OR....the original 1949 SQUARE cornered cards were beveled and
"stuffed" into the 4 boxes. I inquired of other veteran hobbyist; and, they do NOT recall ever seeing this unusual stuff. It appears to me (and others) that this is possibly
a relatively recent "scam"on the hobby.

Why would any one resort to this kind of fraud is anyone's guess. Perhaps, because for a long time the Grading Companies would not grade the 1947 BOND BREAD cards,
and some "genius" thought that this would persuade the Graders to be inclined to grade these cards.

Whatever, I want no part of this shameless scam. I do not accept the legitimacy of ROUNDED cornered cards within Sport Stars Subjects (or Movie Star Subjects) boxes.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[spec]

I'm not quite as ancient as my friend Ted, so I didn't collect these when they were issued, but I have had for many years the four movie star boxed sets (plus another dated 1951) and ALL have rounded corners just like the Bond Bread baseball cards.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by tedzan

For you new members that don't know me, as a kid I collected Sportscards from 1947 to 1952. I returned to this great hobby in 1977. I was fortunate to recover all my
original collection from my youth (which included my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards).
All these years, I have never seen beveled-cornered cards in boxes such as the Sport Star Subjects ones. I have (or had) the SQUARE cornered cards from these boxes,
Baseball and Movie Stars.



Really, it absolutely defies common sense for the BB cards in the Sport Star Subjects boxes to have ROUNDED corners.

The reason for the rounded corners will be explained in the main text. Just because you haven't seen them does not mean they do not exist. Just yesterday I posted a Bobby Doerr card I had never seen before. It had been identified by the seller as a Bond Bread card. After it arrived, I asked the readers of this thread what it was. Cardinalcollector responded it was a 1975 Sports Heritage collector's edition. I had never heard of the set before. Two other cards from that set also have the same pictures as used in the Bond Bread insert set - those are that set's #SH144 Ralph Kiner and #SH136 Vern Stephens. We want to prove what all of the cards are. In terms of actual proof, which would have more evidentiary value, "I never seen the cards before" or "I have had [them] for many years . . . and ALL have rounded corners just like the Bond Bread baseball cards?" Look at Post #216 of 5-14 2020 above to see a rounded corner Sport Star Subjects set.

Ted, don't give up. We really need your help. You are one of the few people who still has cards that can be proven to have been taken out of Bond Bread packages. Please post the front of each different Bond Bread insert card you have so that we can make the distinction between them and the Sport Star Subjects cards as I suggested earlier today in Post #252.

Thanks, Mike

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

All these years, I have never seen beveled-cornered cards in boxes such as the Sport Star Subjects ones. I have (or had) the SQUARE cornered cards from these boxes,
Baseball and Movie Stars.

Really, it absolutely defies common sense for the BB cards in the Sport Star Subjects boxes to have ROUNDED corners.

What I suspect is that either the original 1947 BOND BREAD cards were "stuffed" into these 4 boxes....OR....the original 1949 SQUARE cornered cards were beveled and
"stuffed" into the 4 boxes. I inquired of other veteran hobbyist; and, they do NOT recall ever seeing this unusual stuff.

It appears to me (and others) that this is possibly a relatively recent "scam" on the hobby.

Why would any one resort to this kind of fraud is anyone's guess. Perhaps, because for a long time the Grading Companies would not grade the 1947 BOND BREAD cards,
and some "genius" thought that this would persuade the Graders to be inclined to grade these cards.

Whatever, I want no part of this shameless scam. I do not accept the legitimacy of ROUNDED cornered cards within Sport Stars Subjects (or Movie Star Subjects) boxes.
.

Originally Posted by spec

I'm not quite as ancient as my friend Ted, so I didn't collect these when they were issued, but I have had for many years the four movie star boxed sets (plus another dated 1951) and ALL have rounded corners just like the Bond Bread baseball cards.

Spec

How long ago is....." I have had for many years the four movie star boxed sets " ?


Here are samples from my Movie Star set.....




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Here are samples from my Movie Star set.....




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Mike....or, anyone else interested in this stuff.

We are waiting for a logical, common sense explanation as to why anyone (or a Company) would bevel the corners of these cards (which were SQUARE to begin with),
and were intended to be inserted into SQUARE boxes ? ?

So far, your very elaborate presentation has failed to answer this very elementary question.

.

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by tedzan

For you new members that don't know me, as a kid I collected Sportscards from 1947 to 1952. I returned to this great hobby in 1977. I was fortunate to recover all my
original collection from my youth (which included my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards).
All these years, I have never seen beveled-cornered cards in boxes such as the Sport Star Subjects ones. I have (or had) the SQUARE cornered cards from these boxes,
Baseball and Movie Stars.



Really, it absolutely defies common sense for the BB cards in the Sport Star Subjects boxes to have ROUNDED corners.

What I suspect is that either the original 1947 BOND BREAD cards were "stuffed" into these 4 boxes....OR....the original 1949 SQUARE cornered cards were beveled and
"stuffed" into the 4 boxes. I inquired of other veteran hobbyist; and, they do NOT recall ever seeing this unusual stuff. It appears to me (and others) that this is possibly
a relatively recent "scam"on the hobby.

Why would any one resort to this kind of fraud is anyone's guess. Perhaps, because for a long time the Grading Companies would not grade the 1947 BOND BREAD cards,
and some "genius" thought that this would persuade the Graders to be inclined to grade these cards.

Whatever, I want no part of this shameless scam. I do not accept the legitimacy of ROUNDED cornered cards within Sport Stars Subjects (or Movie Star Subjects) boxes.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Thank you Ted. Well said.

Isn’t it possible individuals are simply clipping the corners off of the cards that originated from the Sports Star Subjects set and passing them off as Bond Breads?

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by griffon512

Maybe I missed it in the novella, but it is unclear to me how you are distinguishing "Sport Star Subjects" from "Bond Bread." Please explain it clearly so a layman could make the distinction if analyzing the two different sets, or maybe someone else can if there is validity to it. If there is not a clear distinction in appearance than the presumption you are making below is just based on how packaging differences are likely to impact the condition of the cards, rather than other objective data.

"Most cards with white-backs and rounded corners attributed as 'Bond Bread' cards in a grade of 'Ex' or better apparently come from the 'Sport Star Subjects' set, not Bond Bread packages."

The 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread inserts and Cards and Photos with like and similar pictures.

Distinguishing the Bond Bread package inserts from “Sport Star Subjects” cards

An easy method exists for telling apart many of the Bond Bread package insert cards from cards in the “Sport Star Subjects” set, but it does not work for distinguishing all cards from these two sets.

People who actually obtained Bond Bread cards from bread packages, and those who purchased such cards directly from them, have said the backs are white and without any bread stains. That tells only half the story. While there are few bread stains on any of the Bond Bread package inserts, all were affected by being next to the bread. My original bond bread cards and those I have seen, as well as the scans of all of cards for which there is direct evidence that they were actually obtained from Bond Bread packages, show a less bright white back than the 'Sport Star Subjects” cards in better grades. I cannot say what is the impact on the brightness of the backs of “Sport Star Subjects' cards that have worn down to a lower grade.



All cards could be told apart between the two sets by comparing pictures that clearly show the details of the die cuts used in the "Sport Star Subjects" set against pictures that clearly show the details of some of the die cuts from the original Bond Bread insert set. That would identify any individual die cut flaws specific to the "Sport Star Subjects" not appearing on the die cuts used to print the Bond Bread set. To do so is more than a one person job and would require the help of others reading this thread.

Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

[abctoo]

Here are better comparative images of the backs of cards similar to the 1947 Bond Bread package inserts. I've added a brown toned Festberg card back to show its difference from the two different set versions of the white backs to avoid any confusion.



Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

[Exhibitman]

I came across this image in my file and thought it would be helpful:



If anyone has one I would be interested in acquiring it.

[abctoo]

As you know, I've been working on reconstructing the two 24-card sheets of the perforated dual side printed set that contains some of the same pictures of the baseball players of the Bond Bread package insert set and of the movie stars in the Screen Star Subjects set. Below are pictures of one side of various cards that I have not yet associated to the specific picture that appears on the other side. Actually I could be picturing both sides but don't know which picture goes with which. These scans are an update of prior postings and have added text for a clearer explanation. If anybody has any information, or better yet, can provide a scan of both sides of any of these cards, it sure would help. Thanks again. Mike








Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

[Exhibitman]

Anyone have any perforated examples of boxers besides Louis?

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=171169

Everything that was interesting about this topic can be found in the thread above. Staying away from round/cropped corners is everyone's safest bet

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Anyone have any perforated examples of boxers besides Louis?

In addition to the Joe Louis card you posted (Hopalong Cassidy is the cowboy pictured on the other side), I think the only other boxer in this perforated dual sided set is Marcel Cerdan with Joan Crawford on the other side. Sorry about the scan below, it's the best image of the Cerdan/Crawford card I have been able to reconstruct.



If anyone has any information about the other perforated dual sided cards I sought yesterday (July 3, 2020) in Post 287 above, your help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Mike


Original work Copyright 2020 by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521. No claim to the work of others.