Question about selling graded cards

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

Hi all,
I usually never buy or sell graded cards, but I recently had a few graded by SGC to sell in the very near future. How does one determine the "mark-up" price for selling graded cards? I use the term mark up, because graded cards typically sell for more then raw examples. After doing a little searching online I found several SGC 60 N172 Old Judges selling for between $425 and $480 each, which is significantly higher then the SCD listing of $270 for an N172 in EX condition. I even came across some N172's graded SGC 10 (Poor) that were between $100 and $130. Is it just a matter of doubling the price one would pay for a raw card in the same condition or is determining a sale price for graded cards more complex then that? SGC's website does not list price for graded N172's. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

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Posted By: runscott

Check out slabbed and un-slabbed sales history on ebay for the issues and grades you are considering sending in (to SGC of course). Purchasing trends can change almost from month to month, especially with t206s and t205s.

But also keep in mind that in some cases the slab might actually hurt a card's re-sell value because the slabbed grade follows, for the most part, strict technical guidelines that don't usually have much to do with visual appeal.

For instance, an SGC40 card can have perfect color, registration and corners, but gets the 'vg' tag because of two creases that don't even break the paper. Or an otherwise Near Mint card that has a faint 1/2" surface wrinkle on the back that only shows up when holding it at an angle under lighting...gets SGC50. These two examples are clearly going to do better without the slab.

But on the other hand, an un-slabbed ugly example that technically slabs "good" might do better in the slab.

Slabs also help when trying to re-sell either extremely high-dollar cards, or cards that are commonly forged, trimmed or that good reprints exist for (Fro joy Ruths, '51 Mantles, '33 Goudey Ruths, any Ruth or Joe Jackson b&w card), simply because they serve to "authenticate" the card...at least that's what people think.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

When it comes to pricing N172's it's very tricky. You can pick up some tough cards cheap and sell some common cards way out of the ballpark. (LEW)

I think when it comes to the price guide you can throw it away, burn it, use it for a decent checklist. So many of the so called common cards are not so common, (Wow say that times really fast) case in point Ed Cushman, which I now proudly own!!! There are so many different ways people collect Old Judges it's very hard to tell how much of a premium someone is will to pay and why that person would want to pay that premium. I for one am collecting to set by player name only. So I would be willing to pay a extra few bucks for the cards I need. High grade cards are less of attraction for me as I can buy two sometimes three 40's for the price of a 80 or higher. I do know a few collectors who only collect EX cards or better and are willing to pay top dollar for cards in that condition. When it comes to trying to gage a price scale for N172's it's next to impossible. There're way to many factors involved. That is why auction houses like Slote, Lipset and ebay are your best avenue the sell cards unless you have a running client want-list and know the buying habits of those clients. Just to give a little perspective on the current market, I have been paying $100-$350 for cards I need, prices doesn't include HOF'ers. The over all average has been around $200.

Adam if you would like further assistance please feel free to e-mail me.

Trevor Hocking
trevor@synergystudios.tv

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Posted By: Julie

he auctions them off, with 10% juice (pretty fair, looking around). If you object to his opening bid prices fine, but you can't blame Lew for prices realized! The 19th century market is very hot now.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Hi Julie,
I wasn't trying to say Lew was doing anything wrong at all, as a matter of fact I said that one of the best place to sell your cards would be through his auctions. I would never say that he is getting to much money for his cards, but in the past month he had a Ed Sprauge card that went for $800!!! on ebay in EX maybe EXMT (just my own opinion on the grade but what do I know). This was the reason for my comment. Man if he could get that for his COMMONS!!! through ebay I'm sure Lew would never run another N172 common in his auction again.

By the way nice HOY Julie. Your 19th century collection is very impressive. Your are making me very envious. I hope all is well.
Trevor

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

lots of the OJ's sell for widely varying price ranges and grading or not grading may not be the deciding factor on what they sell for. There are at least 2-3 with maybe more people collecting them BY POSE. With over 2400-2500 cards, that is a daunting task and, as such, I think that some of those people will pay a significant premium on what might be considered a 'common' pose or player.

More often than not an SGC60 or SGC80 will sell for 150-200% of what an EX to EXMT described card will sell for. SGC20,30 and 40 cards seem to command a nice premium to similarly described, ungraded cards.
Unfortunately, this is not an absolute, so the proverbial crapshoot is what is more likely to happen. The benefit with ebay versus the Sloate, Lipset or other auction is you set your minimum and you set your reserve. You have SOME control on if the item will sell in your range.

Looking at and studying the SGC/PSA selling prices for OJ's will sometimes give you a good feel for pricing and trends though and for now, it's as good as, if not better, barometer of what they're 'worth' than the SCD or Beckett guides. At least SCD has tried to include some of the pose/team/player combinations that might be considered 'Scarce'--info which, to date, has been in a limited number of hands--for obvious reasons.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I would not consider selling decent vintage cards "raw"; you leave too much money on the table.

I see the card grading decision as breaking down into 2 basic categories: grading typical cards and grading rarities. Graded cards from popular "basic" sets (T206, T205, E90-1, 1933 Goudey, etc.) definitely get a premium in the middle and higher grades (vg-ex to ex-mt, 4-6) simply because the slab takes some (most) of the BS out of the process--I HATE getting a card described as ex with a bunch of creases in it. I also would absolutely grade HOFer cards from the really popular pre WWI sets that are g-vg or better because there are a lot of us out there who collect them and will pay a decent premium to avoid receiving overgraded p-f cards. That said, I don't think you will get more than a 10%-20% bump for a slabbed specimen over an accurately graded unslabbed card, but finding that accuracy is the killer. In short, I pay for the convenience of having had SGC or GAI pass on the card before I buy it and I am pretty sure that others do too.

You can chuck the book and go with whatever you feel is merited for rarer cards and for prewar cards in high (7+) slabbed grades. As a collector, my rule of thumb for pricing those kinds of cards is to decide what I want to get from the card to be happy to part with it, and that's what I ask. I am content to hold the card forever if I can't get a price that really excites me because it is a solid item that is not going anywhere unless the whole darn shooting match heads south on us, in which case we are all screwed. Plus, I know I can always trade a rare card for something I like better if it comes along.

If I was a full-time dealer, I would probably analyze the slabbing issue as a value-added decision: does the slab add enough value to cover the cost and boost my ROI (return on investment) sufficiently for me to go to the trouble of the process? So, if I had a card that I purchased for $30 and that routinely sells for $40 ungraded and $60 graded, and it costs me $10 to grade it, I would probably do it to boost my ROI (return on investment) from 33% to 50% ($40-$30=$10; $10/$30=33 1/3%. $60-$40=$20; $20/$40=50%). I also would have to consider how fast I can get out of the deal with my cash. A 10% profit in a week is way better than waiting a year to wring out a full retail 50% profit (10% in a week is equivalent to an annual 520% gain). If you can sell the raw card in a week but need to get maximum retail once you've slabbed the card in order to make a decent gain, slabbing is a loser.

Isn't math fun??

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Posted By: Donald Johnson

And to think! I had to get my MBA just to understand what the heck you were talking about! Would have rather spent all that dough on cards:)

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Posted By: RBCraik

Gee Whiz!

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Posted By: slacks

<< A 10% profit in a week is way better than waiting a year to wring out a full retail 50% profit (10% in a week is equivalent to an annual 520% gain).>>

Not necessarily. It's about opportunity cost. The question should be, if you cash in your 10% after a week, what are you going to do with the money? Put it in the bank at 3%? Pay down your mortgage at 6%? Buy a new pair of shoes? Who says you can repeat that deal every week for a year?

Unless you have another investment that can earn nearly 40% annually (let me know, by the way, I want in), then you are way better off keeping your money in a 50% per annum investment than liquiding after a week for 10%.

slacks

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Posted By: Elliot

It's not opportunity cost, but rather the assumed rate of reinvestment that is relevant for making the decision.

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

I would screw it up every time. I'd use the profits to buy beer and pizza. While that may be an "opportunity cost" if you use a really broad definition, it probably can't realistically be considered a reinvestment. Guess I'll just have to keep my cards and buy the beer and pizza from funds obtained from other sources.

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Posted By: slacks

Elliot: Opportunity cost is the value of the money in its next best alternative use. That's exactly what I'm referring to.

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Posted By: Julie

I made an 1100 % profit on my Gehringer (had it for 18 years), and all the rest lost a little...

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Posted By: slacks

ROI = Return on investment. Not bad return. Of course, your return will be somewhat reduced by the tax you'll pay on the gain...

slacks
For all you know, an IRS agent

"He'd (Charlie Gehringer) say hello at the start of spring training and goodbye at the end of the season and the rest of the time he let his bat and glove do all the talking for him." - Ty Cobb

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Posted By: runscott

A lot of people get confused about the difference between selling cards for a living and investing in cards. Most dealers I know are looking for a quick turn-over for a profit. Example: If I bought a card for $800 today, knowing that I could sell it for $1,000 in a week, I take the $200 and move on...rather than saving the card for a year or so as an "investment" because someone tells me it should go up in value by $400. Personally, I don't invest in cards - if cards in my collection go up in value that's a bonus, but I'm not counting on it. But of course I keep an eye on the market and attempt to buy low.

Does anyone out there think Kit Young was buying all those Cracker Jacks as "investments"?

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Posted By: Donald Johnson

I'm sure Kit Y. isn't out for investment because they sure as heck recently listed a bunch of lower grade CJ's. Maybe the card company that wanted them as inserts had enough of a supply?

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Posted By: Seth B.

KY just listed a bunch of those Cracker Jacks on e-bay last night. And, as usual, the opening bid is about as much as I'd pay for some of them--they're pretty beat up.

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Posted By: Seth B.

Whoops! That last post from the Department of Redundancy Department.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Geez, what happened to this thread. I thought where talking about grading N172's and now I'm back in my Eco class.

I really hate to see people looking at collectables as an investment, but I do realize that we have to sell some stuff to get the other stuff we want. So I guess making a profit would be great. The main thing I try to tell future collectors is buy what you like to look at, that way if they are worthless you still have something you like to view.

I have had a very tuff time lately with everyone around me talking about money when it comes to cards. That's why I love to trade. Money is just that. What we collect is history and I think it is so often forgotten.

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Posted By: jay behrens

All thru the 80s I kept telling people that wanted to get into the hobby, buy the things that mean something to you, Cards of your favorite players and teams. that way, when the market collapses, you will still have something that will bring you good memories. I was scoffed at a lot in the 80s becuase everyone thought the market would boom forever. I got lucky and sold off my collection before the market collapsed, but it didn't save me from losing money in real estate

Jay

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Posted By: runscott

money came about to make "bartering" easier - think of it as a "middleman" in the trading process.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Well put!!!

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Posted By: warshawlaw

We were talking at Hollywood Park about a lot of stuff but as I recall it, card values and profitable deals were big topics.

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

... for the great thoughts on this thread, they will definitely help. For me, getting money for cards is a bonus. I'm not a dealer or investor, I just love Baseball and Vintage cards. It all works out great for me in the end because a majority of the money that I'll making selling cards, will go back into buying cards. A large percentage of the money made on every card I've sold recently and in the near future has and will go back into purchasing the stuff my heart is really set on collecting such as T212 Obaks, certain N172's and New England League memorabilia.

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

This is why I love this forum. What other Vintage card forum can you post on and get free lessons in Economics and Business Math.

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Posted By: Brian H

As suspected above there is a "new" faux cracker jack set being issued by Topps that includes real CJs circa 1914-15 as inserts. Presumably the ones KY is selling didn't make the cut as inserts in the Topps set.

Interestingly the Topps set (like the old CJs) will include cards of owners such as Loria. I would love to have a Steinbrenner or Rheinsdorf card if they are included.....

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Posted By: runscott

for a "Cracker Jack"-style Steinbrenner dart board! (and set of darts sporting Boston Red Sox logos)