Any player cards you dont collect because of morals

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Belfast1933

It's always bugged me to hear that John McGraw was said to have carried a small piece of rope from a lynching "for luck"

I first heard this during the Ken Burns baseball series many years ago and I think of it often when looking at his cards (i'm a HOP "as a player" collector so it's not an issue with McGraw)

But still...

McGraw was a weird intense character that tended to rub people the wrong way at times, as well as doing conflicting things. It is horribly odd that this was a perverse tradition at the time and not uncommon. What is weirder is that in a true example of conflicting actions, McGraw did actually try to break the color barrier in 1901 by attempting to sneak in Charles Grant Jr as an American Indian named Chief Tokohama. If it wasn’t for Charles Comiskey putting a stop to it by recognizing Grant, McGraw would have been successful.

As an example that few may know of this sick tradition, feel free to read about Nap Lajoie -

[Belfast1933]

Originally Posted by JustinD

McGraw was a weird intense character that tended to rub people the wrong way at times, as well as doing conflicting things. It is horribly odd that this was a perverse tradition at the time and not uncommon. What is weirder is that in a true example of conflicting actions, McGraw did actually try to break the color barrier in 1901 by attempting to sneak in Charles Grant Jr as an American Indian named Chief Tokohama. If it wasn’t for Charles Comiskey putting a stop to it by recognizing Grant, McGraw would have been successful.

As an example that few may know of this sick tradition, feel free to read about Nap Lajoie -

Wow, horrible… almost wish I didn’t know about this. (But thx for sharing - just wish his history wasn’t so tarnished by something like this)

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Belfast1933

Wow, horrible… almost wish I didn’t know about this. (But thx for sharing - just wish his history wasn’t so tarnished by something like this)

I just think it's too hard to judge the past by current standards. What is positive is that those past standards are gone.

The real issue for me is when people do not learn from the mistakes or misguided mores of the past and continue to live by them. When we hide these things or erase them, they are only bound to repeat. We learn, we move forward.

[Belfast1933]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I just think it's too hard to judge the past by current standards. What is positive is that those past standards are gone.

The real issue for me is when people do not learn from the mistakes or misguided mores of the past and continue to live by them. When we hide these things or erase them, they are only bound to repeat. We learn, we move forward.

I hear you and can see and agree with you to a point... but for me, a lucky lynching rope?? That's as clear as can be, even applying some latitude for a different time. This blows waaay past my own limit.

It's just a bummer to learn these things

[G1911]

Feel free to send me your Anson’s, Lajoie’s, McGraw’s and anyone else who does not meet todays standards of acceptable thought. Free your collection of its burden, and get some cash (note: cash may picture individuals who do not fit your worldview) in exchange!

P.S. Good luck finding 2022 right think in 1910.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Belfast1933

I hear you and can see and agree with you to a point... but for me, a lucky lynching rope?? That's as clear as can be, even applying some latitude for a different time. This blows waaay past my own limit.

It's just a bummer to learn these things

What's truly astonishing is how matter of factly the newspaper reports the murder.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What's truly astonishing is how matter of factly the newspaper reports the murder.

Yeah that was an intense read.

There is something to be said about those who reform later in life such as Speaker and Cobb. I have a lot of respect for those who can see the err in their ways and ideals, especially at an older age.

[G1911]

I went diving into the story here of this sad incident.

Robertson murdered a policeman on the street on a "forenoon", Deputy Sherriff Phillip Fatch. NY Times Article is here, though I can only read the abstract (https://www.nytimesn7cgmftshazwhfgzm...l-richard.html).

It appears that he was accused of assault, and two policemen came to arrest him. This unsourced marker, clearly and heavily biased to the most charitable view of Robertson possible, (https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=202593) claims "When two white deputies arrived to arrest Mr. Robertson, he objected and ultimately fled after an exchange of gunfire left all three wounded." It seems that there is little doubt he murdered a cop and shot another, who appears to have been making a lawful arrest. I can find nothing on if Robertson was guilty or not of the original assault, which is probably lost to time and only the claimed victims really knew, possibly the police if they had provided evidence. Robertson was shot by his victims three times as well. After Fatch succumbed to his wounds, a mob removed him from his cell and "fired several shots" and hung him. I interpret this to mean the poor man was given a coup de grace before being strung up, that's usually what this kind of phrasing meant at that time.

There are efforts for this memorial to Robertson and its final placement, which is apparently a hot topic in Mobile (https://www.al.com/news/2022/07/cont...-happened.html). Advocates of the memorial, which they wanted to place where a statue of the cancelled Raphael Semmes used to stand, claimed they were unaware of the allegation Robertson committed murder, which seems absolutely impossible to credibly believe as the memorial does include that fact, though phrased in the most charitable way.

What a sad and thoroughly unnecessary human tragedy all around, with 2 deaths and another probably seriously wounded person. A lynching is, should be needless too say, a horrible thing, as is the denial of due process rights, especially when the guilty party is already in custody and no longer a meaningful threat to the public. So is committing murder in the first place, Fatch seems to have done nothing wrong here as far as I have read, he served a legitimate warrant for arrest on assault charges, for those charges to be heard in court. As to the modern controversy, I do not think at this point I will ever understand the cancellation of historical figures to be replaced with similar statues, memorials and commemorations of people who are not historical figures and evidently committed objectively horrible crimes, but are more amenable to the narratives of those doing said cancelling. There seem to be many victims in this saga, and no heroes.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by G1911

I went diving into the story here of this sad incident.

Robertson murdered a policeman on the street on a "forenoon", Deputy Sherriff Phillip Fatch. NY Times Article is here, though I can only read the abstract (https://www.nytimesn7cgmftshazwhfgzm...l-richard.html).

It appears that he was accused of assault, and two policemen came to arrest him. This unsourced marker, clearly and heavily biased to the most charitable view of Robertson possible, (https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=202593) claims "When two white deputies arrived to arrest Mr. Robertson, he objected and ultimately fled after an exchange of gunfire left all three wounded." It seems that there is little doubt he murdered a cop and shot another, who appears to have been making a lawful arrest. I can find nothing on if Robertson was guilty or not of the original assault, which is probably lost to time and only the claimed victims really knew, possibly the police if they had provided evidence. Robertson was shot by his victims three times as well. After Fatch succumbed to his wounds, a mob removed him from his cell and "fired several shots" and hung him. I interpret this to mean the poor man was given a coup de grace before being strung up, that's usually what this kind of phrasing meant at that time.

There are efforts for this memorial to Robertson and its final placement, which is apparently a hot topic in Mobile (https://www.al.com/news/2022/07/cont...-happened.html). Advocates of the memorial, which they wanted to place where a statue of the cancelled Raphael Semmes used to stand, claimed they were unaware of the allegation Robertson committed murder, which seems absolutely impossible to credibly believe as the memorial does include that fact, though phrased in the most charitable way.

What a sad and thoroughly unnecessary human tragedy all around, with 2 deaths and another probably seriously wounded person. A lynching is, should be needless too say, a horrible thing, as is the denial of due process rights, especially when the guilty party is already in custody and no longer a meaningful threat to the public. So is committing murder in the first place, Fatch seems to have done nothing wrong here as far as I have read, he served a legitimate warrant for arrest on assault charges, for those charges to be heard in court. As to the modern controversy, I do not think at this point I will ever understand the cancellation of historical figures to be replaced with similar statues, memorials and commemorations of people who are not historical figures and evidently committed objectively horrible crimes, but are more amenable to the narratives of those doing said cancelling. There seem to be many victims in this saga, and no heroes.

Incredibly sad story and thanks for doing the footwork. Regardless of the crimes involved, carrying a piece of lynching rope would only bring bad mojo in my book. I don't really care for Anson and his racist past so I don't collect his cards, but I also collect cards I like that are morally bankrupt in other ways, so I don't really have a leg to stand on.

[Chuck9788]

Originally Posted by JustinD

As an example that few may know of this sick tradition, feel free to read about Nap Lajoie -

So I did some research on the lynching of Richard Robertson (above article).

Robertson was arrested and jailed in January 1909, for allegedly shooting and killing Deputy Philip Fatch.

The altercation occurred after two deputies, including Fatch, arrived at Robertson’s home to arrest him on a warrant for assault. Robertson, a carpenter working on a home in downtown Mobile, had been accused by two white plumbers – also working on the same home – of assault.

Robertson fled the deputies, and all three exchanged gunfire. Robertson was shot and transported to jail.

I am in no way justifying a barbaric lynching (or the accepting of hanging ropes as gifts). I'm only pointing out that this was not an "innocent" man that hung that day.

[Belfast1933]

Originally Posted by Chuck9788

So I did some research on the lynching of Richard Robertson (above article).

Robertson was arrested and jailed in January 1909, for allegedly shooting and killing Deputy Philip Fatch.

The altercation occurred after two deputies, including Fatch, arrived at Robertson’s home to arrest him on a warrant for assault. Robertson, a carpenter working on a home in downtown Mobile, had been accused by two white plumbers – also working on the same home – of assault.

Robertson fled the deputies, and all three exchanged gunfire. Robertson was shot and transported to jail.

I am in no way justifying a barbaric lynching (or the accepting of hanging ropes as gifts). I'm only pointing out that this was not an "innocent" man that hung that day.

Respectfully, I'm sure the folks who did the lynching probably felt the same way that day... for me, it's irrelevant.

I'd also like to add that the topic on this thread has been so thought provoking for me as a collector. As someone earlier joked, they'd be happy to take cards off my hands of some of the sketchier HOF members, it's honestly something that has crossed my mind over the last day or two.

And thanks to all who have kept the conversation civil - lots of adults here, which is nice (and sadly rare these days)