M101-4/5

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Posted By: Tom

I would like to know where network 54 experts ever came up with an idea that all wide gap M101-4 and 5 or reprints? Without questions they are not. I agree about some of the cards you can see the gloss and the narrow gap, but the key element is the paper stock. This wide gap/narrow gap is just a bunch of crap. I agree there are fakes out there, but what you turn to is the paper stock. Looking at two cards one with a wide gap and one with a narrow gap side by side with a 60X microscope the paper stock is a perfect match. If you go back to 1992 SCD there is a photo of Bennie Kauff M101-5 with the wide gap. Question, why would SCD use a fake photo of Bennie Kauff M101-5 in there magazine and nothing was ever, said about the authenticity of the photo?

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

that has a wide gap and that you believe to be authentic. I do not recall ever seeing one.

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Posted By: MW

Agreed. Let's see an image of a real one that has the gap.

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Posted By: Tim N

Headnote says it all--

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Posted By: leon

is this is going to be a very short lived thread.....I gave Tom his chance once before. I did see a narrow gapped fake today on ebay...I called Dan M. and he said he had actually held that Cobby I was looking at and it was fake.....albeit being sold by a different seller....I've never seen a wide gapped real one either....regards

edited for grammar

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Posted By: Julie

I have one from '85 with a letter to the editor in it from me...used to be a nice little magazine instead of a huge weekly newspaper with very little of interest in it.)

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

the standard scam/bs sales with the wide gap are for m101-5, not m101-4. I have seen some narrow gapped bogus m101-4s (there's a shoeless on ebay now http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86841&item=5200762596&rd=1), which are no doubt just plain copies, easily discerned in person. Curiously, you don't seem to find any Steve Yerkes or Sam Agnew cards, just Cobbs, Shoeless, Walter, Ruth, on occasional Lajoie, etc.

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Posted By: Tom

Why is network 54 so convinced they do not existence? What logic are you using beside the wide gap and narrow gap when you see the photo's on ebay? There is no possible way to tell unless you conduct test on the paper stock. I am convinced they do based on two factors. The paper stock test and the golden and purple tones they appear. You can see the fibers in both cards placed together on the microscope they are one of the same with no difference at all. Looks like you are seeing the same card, but one has the narrow gap Joe Connolly 37 Standard Biscuit Company back and the other is the wide gap Frank Chance 28 Blank Back. This is just like for years everyone including Bob Lemkie called the m101-4 and M101-5 a 1915 up until it was changed by Bob Lemkie because he found an advertisement with cards that said 1916. I still believe they are two different sets made in two different years. The plate's they used to make the cards were extremely heavy and to the best of my knowledge they would just pile them up like stove wood. As everyone knows metal will expand and contract due to the elements of the weather. This is far about your knowledge to understand. There was a pirate company that made these cards to back during this time frame. What happened they copied some of the plate's and made others with different card numbers on them. This explains why the photo is the same, but different card numbers. The Sporting News only made this one 200 cards set to advertise there newspaper. All the others cards came from the pirate company because The Sporting News was NOT INTO MAKE BASEBALL CARDS ONLY SELLING NEWSPAPER AND THAT A FACT. Here is a list of Joe Tinker M101-4 and 5. Please take a good look there is only two cards that has THE SPORTING NEWS back everyhing else has a different advertisement back. There is very few people that really know the truth about these cards. The best source of information about these sets is to talk to the old timers and conduct some research like I have done for the past 2 1/2 years. Food for thought!

1916 Altoona Tribune (M101-4) 174
1916 Block and Kuhl Co. (M101-5) 177
1916 Burgess-Nash Clothiers (M101-4) 174
1916 Everybody's (M101-4) 174
1916 Famous and Barr Clothiers (M101-4) 174
1916 Famous and Barr Clothiers (M101-5) 177
1916 Gimbels (Large Block Print) (M101-5) 177
1916 Gimbels (Large Print) (M101-4) 174
1916 Globe Clothing Store (M101-4) H801-9 174
1916 Green-Joyce Clothiers (M101-4) 174
1916 Herpolsheimer Co. (M101-4) 174
1916 Holmes to Homes (M101-5) 177
1916 Indianapolis Brewing Co (M101-4) 174
1916 Mall Theatre (M101-4) 174
1916 Morehouse Baking Co. (M101-4) D352 174
1916 Sporting News M101-4 174
1916 Sporting News M101-5 177
1916 Standard Biscuit (M101-5) D350-2 177
1916 Successful Farming (M101-5) 177

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Posted By: jay behrens

This comes from years of experience from members on the board. I have almost 25 years of experience handling vintage cards. Many other board members have as much or more experience than me, and none of us seem to have ever seen a legit wide gap m101-4/5. Until someone can definatively prove that a legit wide gap m101-4/5 exists, everyone will live by the rule that a wide gap is a fake.

Jay

I like to sit outside drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: OJ-Collector

I agree with Jay 100%.

There are some truly brilliant cardboard minds on this board minds and I have always known this to be the fact as well.

edit: I let my subscription run out on SCD many, many, many years ago. The magazine needs to 're-invent' itself.

edited again to add: I thought Tom was referring to the "Gap" between the players name and the photo. Same as the below.

DJ

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

My bad,
I thought Tom was referring to the "Gap" between the players name and the photo. If he is referring to the gap between the outer line surrounding the photo and the inner line touching the photo, then he is completely wrong. I have never seen one with a wide "gap" between these two lines and been legit.
-Rhett

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Posted By: J Levine

All those look like thin gaps to me...wide gaps are usually obvious in my experience...tom is right on one account...nothing like holding the card in your hand and looking up close.

-Joshua

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Posted By: MW

Yep. All those cards pictured have a narrow gap between the black line and the image.

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Posted By: Elliot

It's not just the wide gap that distinguishes the reprints from the real cards. When the reprints were made, the photos were slightly cropped which gave way to the gap. This cropping caused other differences in the cards. For example, on the Ruth, his shoe is cut off on the right side of the card. There are other differences on the Ruth card from the original.

Of course, with modern fakes, you could have a narrow gap and still be a fake, but it would be obvious when you held it in your hand. It would only look real on the ebay scan.

There is no doubt that the wide gaps are reprints. As others have requested show us an example of a wide gap authentic card, or just don't post anymore.

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

Tom,

In your post you said:


"The best source of information about these sets is to talk to the old timers and conduct some research like I have done for the past 2 1/2 years."

Please, do tell us who these "old-timers" are that you spoke with while doing your research.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Tom, I am a newbe to vintage cards but I have a stack, maybe a dozen, wide gapped commons for sale. Please email me if you would like to buy these original gems. Dan.

Tom, you are missing a 3rd Gimbles variation and the Leader Theatre in your list.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I have not seen a Leader Theatre card--could you provide a scan?

Could someone else decipher Tom's post for me? First, he says the cards were printed in two separate years, but he lists all backs as being from 1916. He then says to take a look but provides no scans. The rest is gibberish.

Are we supposed to be impressed with his list of backs? It's inaccurate and incomplete. It fails to mention Ware's and Weil Baking. It lists Sporting News backs for both sets, when m101-5 has no such back. Conversely, it lists Standard Biscuit as only an m101-5 set, when it is also found in m101-4. Dan noted the third Gimbel's variation, and of course, both sets can be found with blank backs.

I'd be very interested in talking to these "old timers", particularly if they remember the sets being issued 89 or so years ago.

Pssssst, Tom, there was no pirate company. If you spent any time researching these issues, you'd know that it was Felix Mendelsohn who created the set, before it was offered with TSN backs.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Leon owns the only Leader Theatre card I have seen, Dan.

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Posted By: Wesley

Tom, Are the Bucyrus Brewing and Furniture City sheets ok? They both have narrow gaps.