major auction houses a lesson to be learned

[sflayank]

what we learned from mile high yesterday is that you should consign psa stuff to them
regionals to huggins and test issues to scp or legendary
rare memoribilia and unique stuff to robert edwards
they all have their on niche of bidders
you could have stolen some 67 standups yesterday at mile high
or you could pay a fortune for cheap stuff in psa holders

[barrysloate]

Actually I think they all have the same bidders...but I agree certain auctions do have their specialties, which in turn brings in like consignments.

[calvindog]

What we learned from last night is that flowery, grammatically incorrect language is the driving force behind high auction prices.

[barrysloate]

Jeff- wouldn't you think that a company that wants to put out a professional auction catalog could spend a little time proofreading it...or find a college English major to look it over for a few bucks?

[kylebicking]

All auction catalogs have these problems. I think they're quite amusing, especially when a player's name is spelled wrong.

Attention all auction houses - proof reader for hire right here...

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Jeff- wouldn't you think that a company that wants to put out a professional auction catalog could spend a little time proofreading it...or find a college English major to look it over for a few bucks?

No. Flowery language gets the competitive juices flowing which causes insane, 8x the value prices. I never said the language had to make sense.

[rman444]

Jeff - I hope you realize that I have the term "flowery language" copyrighted. You will have to pay me a nickel every time you use it. I should have enough for a full sized BG Cobb in no time.

[murcerfan]

Larry..i do agree on the '67 standups, BUT if you wanted a '68 3-d Powell in psa8 you had to beat $8,500 .... 3-d Stottlemyer in psa6 set somebody back $3,800 (i picked one up that graded psa7 in 2003 for $800) ..conversely the Flood psa6 was cheap, as were the easy ones... I paid about what I expected to upgrade my Staub to psa6.

I also thought the D304 Kelly, and a few of the E90-3 cards got strong action.

There do seem to be good deals to be had lately...lots of material being auctioned and money tight for most of us.

[Orioles1954]

When I first started to work at H&S, I was told to have my work read like the New York Times, not the New Yorker. We try to be technical and to the point, adding only pertinent details. Sure we have one-liners here and there, but have attempted to keep that to a minimum.

[calvindog]

In NYC, obsession with real estate abounds. My favorite descriptive term is "sun drenched."

As for auction catalogs sounding like the NY Times, I suppose that's a decent idea; anything but a Harlequin Romance novel would suit me fine.

[Rich Klein]

I could write most of these descriptions in my sleep and with real knowledge of the hobby and sports

Similar to Kyle; I'm a writer/copy editor for hire for these people

Rich

[Orioles1954]

As a collector and a writer in the industry, I get ALL of the auction catalogs. I will keep personal opinions to myself on this one, but when I see a description longer than a couple of paragraphs I will automatically skip over it.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

When I first started to work at H&S, I was told to have my work read like the New York Times....

Just what we need, auction descriptions with a liberal bias.

edited to add smiley

<-------------

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

As a collector and a writer in the industry, I get ALL of the auction catalogs. I will keep personal opinions to myself on this one, but when I see a description longer than a couple of paragraphs I will automatically skip over it.

I skip over all auction descriptions unless it is something I'm interested in or bidding on. I really don't mind the descriptions at all...I can get past the flowery BS to find the facts. Usually though I am only interested in memorabilia and often times there is a story behind it that needs to be told....when it comes to cards just describe the condition, the issue and move along...I really don't need a Honus Wagner biography with every card depicting him offered.

[Leon]

As an auctioneer I like the long drawn out descriptions- not. I mean does it really take 3 paragraphs to describe a T206 Red Cobby in vg condition?

The auctions I like most are the ones that give big, clear, front and back scans of cards. Most of us, especially on this board, have a darn good idea of what we are looking at most of the times. And every time I hear the term "pop report" I just cringe. But I am not a pop report kind of collector (not that there is anything wrong with that, all collectors are good in my book).....I would rather hear how many are truly known about in existence. That number, such as an example (this might not be accurate but is for example only) of a PSA 7 Red Cobb.....maybe it has a pop of 8, or something. That is wonderful. The known population is probably 350 but only 8 have been graded a 7. And some of these might not even be trimmed.....

Memorabilia is another story and a nice description is needed for provenance, dating etc.....

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I skip over all auction descriptions unless it is something I'm interested in or bidding on. I really don't mind the descriptions at all...I can get past the flowery BS to find the facts. Usually though I am only interested in memorabilia and often times there is a story behind it that needs to be told....when it comes to cards just describe the condition, the issue and move along...I really don't need a Honus Wagner biography with every card depicting him offered.

That is 100% how we feel.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I skip over all auction descriptions unless it is something I'm interested in or bidding on.

Comeon, Dan, are you telling me that some nice flowery language describing the 1962 Topps Homerun Kings card in PSA 8 wouldn't get you to bid 30x more than what the card sold for the previous (and subsequent) 21 times?

[barrysloate]

Jeff- my favorite real estate quote is "this property is waiting for your loving touch."

That usually means the foundation is cracked and not all the walls are present.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Leon

As an auctioneer I like the long drawn out descriptions- not. I mean does it really take 3 paragraphs to describe a T206 Red Cobby in vg condition?

The auctions I like most are the ones that give big, clear, front and back scans of cards. Most of us, especially on this board, have a darn good idea of what we are looking at most of the times. And every time I hear the term "pop report" I just cringe. But I am not a pop report kind of collector (not that there is anything wrong with that, all collectors are good in my book).....I would rather hear how many are truly known about in existence. That number, such as an example (this might not be accurate but is for example only) of a PSA 7 Red Cobb.....maybe it has a pop of 8, or something. That is wonderful. The known population is probably 350 but only 8 have been graded a 7. And some of these might not even be trimmed.....

Memorabilia is another story and a nice description is needed for provenance, dating etc.....

With type cards I tend to give pop reports as it often paints a picture, and bidders usually appreciate that kind of information. It's a somewhat tangible tidbit of information for certain lots. As far as needlessly long descriptions with flowery language, I envision a kid just out of college who is trying to regurgitate everything they googled in order to fulfill a word count. Not impressive.

[barrysloate]

I'm with Leon on the term "pop report." Cataloguers who depend on the population report have no feel for the cards they are selling, and the pop reports can be and often are so misleading. My favorites are "one of only eight graded at this level, with only six higher." Those make me laugh.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Comeon, Dan, are you telling me that some nice flowery language describing the 1962 Topps Homerun Kings card in PSA 8 wouldn't get you to bid 30x more than what the card sold for the previous (and subsequent) 21 times?

That's exactly why I don't read them...I'm afraid I'll be hypnotized into spending 30x more than the card is worth.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I'm with Leon on the term "pop report." Cataloguers who depend on the population report have no feel for the cards they are selling, and the pop reports can be and often are so misleading. My favorites are "one of only eight graded at this level, with only six higher." Those make me laugh.

Not much you can say about a 1963 Topps Jim Coates PSA 10....other than give his life story?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

That's exactly why I don't read them...I'm afraid I'll be hypnotized into spending 30x more than the card is worth.

Kind of like staring into the sun but instead of going blind your pockets go empty.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You guys suggesting this might have been over the top? NOT.

In the year of the '34 Goudey issue, Dizzy Dean led his "Gashouse Gang" of rough and tough (and dirty) Cardinals to a World Series victory over the Detroit Tigers. Despite a probable concussion suffered in Game 4, he returned to pitch in Games 5 and 7, buoying the hopes of untold fans in all parts of the depression-ravaged country. For his efforts that season (30-7 with a 2.66 ERA), Dean won the MVP award in addition to his World Series ring, hence the popularity of the offered 1934 Goudey card, but the effect he had on fans was infinitely more significant than we could ever imagine today. At the time, the St. Louis club was the southernmost and westernmost club in the major leagues and quickly attracted the adoration of fans from across the plains and down both seaboards. In the midst of the Great Depression, untold numbers of fans identified with the spirit of the team. They weren't always the best, but they hustled and they worked hard; they persevered through the tough times, took pay cuts, and rarely washed their uniforms. They were the antithesis of the slick and rich NY Giants. They were "America's Team," and Diz' their ice-cool ace. His swagger and bravado was second to none. "It ain't braggin' if ya can back it up" was one of his favorite lines, and boy did he mean it... Like the time he bet he could strike out Vince DiMaggio four times in one game. After three strike-outs, DiMaggio hit a pop foul to the catcher, who let it drop on orders from Dean, who gassed the next pitch past an embarrassed DiMaggio and won the bet. Such stories about the famous "Gashouse Gang" abound in MLB lore, but as the generations pass, so, too, does our collective appreciation for players like Dizzy Dean. Of course, a strong bid on the offered Goudey Gum card relic from Dean's MVP season can help to revitalize that appreciation, but don't base your decision strictly on sentimentality. The offered 1934 Goudey example of Dizzy Dean is among the finest we've ever offered. MINT corners at all points but the marginally NM/MT bottom right join sensationally MINT or better edges around a strong MINT obverse with no prominent print imperfections whatsoever to merit just the fourth grade of NM/MT 8 by SGC from 75 submissions. Truly stunning!

[Kehfee]

Have to admit the post war sets I work on saw some insane prices in this auction. Good for the consignors I suppose.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The presented 1940 Play Ball example of Ted Williams has been extremely conservatively graded NM/MT 8 by the increasingly demanding graders at PSA. Never before have we ever offered a PSA 8 example of any card from any set with such an obvious abundance of decidedly above-grade features. Well-formed NM/MT+ bottom corners bow to superior MINT+ to GEM MINT top points between indubitably undeviating MINT edges around a sensationally MINT surface that displays a characteristically granular appearance completely devoid of any significantly extraneous print that wouldn't be tolerated on a MINT and perhaps even GEM MINT example. The contrast, that is, the relative difference between the lighter and darker areas of the image, is as strong as the sepia-toned print of the '40 Play Ball issue permits, while the thin lines encompassing Teddy's classic pose, as well as the nostalgic baseball-themed design girding the immaculate nameplate at bottom, show no breaks or skips, as they often do, and boast such tremendous saturation that they in fact appear black to the naked eye. The reverse text is equally as impressive, with noticeably bold registration and no perceivable fading or other common inadequacies indicative of the conservatively opined evaluation. Process of elimination brings us back to the front surface in search of a marginal deficiency responsible for the grade, but I still see no apparent faults, even with a 15x loop, that would exclude this pack-fresh blazer not just from a NM/MT+ 8.5 grade, but from a comfortable and clearly convincing fit in a MINT 9 holder. Is it the top-to-bottom centering? Is it not at least 35/65, the stipulated minimum tolerance for MINT 9? Or am I simply losing my mind after writing too many descriptions today? No, yes, and... probably! But, seriously, friends, any which way you inspect and admire this stimulating 1940 Play Ball example of "The Kid," its admirable condition can be summed up with one simple term, never before so appropriate and true: HIGH END! No, check that. This prized pasteboard is EXCEPTIONALLY HIGH END!

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

....extremely conservatively graded NM/MT 8 by the increasingly demanding graders at PSA.....

He said adverbly....

[calvindog]

Peter, I don't know what in the hell just happened but I read the above verbiage you posted and started feeling a bit dizzy. Next thing I know I'm on the ground with a bump on my head -- and my wallet was gone!

[Rich Klein]

Most cards don't require much more than a few lines.

One paragraph on the background of the player

One paragraph on the card's grade and if needed; an explanation of the importance of said condition.

NOW; there are memorabilia pieces which require more detail as to explain WHY the piece exists may take a few paragraphs.

Thus; for the average collector on this board; card descriptions are too long and mem descriptions need more detail.

But we also have to remember; that not every collector knows what we DO about these cards.

Rich

[Exhibitman]

I agree with Rich's final observation. I like longer and more detailed descriptions on some of the rarer cards and sets about which I know little more than their catalog designation. I also don't mind well-written, well-researched information on a player, especially if the information offered is something obscure. REA writes very long descriptions on some of their lots and I appreciate the information. As far as negatives, I especially would like to see less of the "this is so great for its grade" hype and more detailed explanation of the actual condition--like telling me which corner is weak, which I might not see in a scan. I can also do without the goofy synonyms, similes and metaphors. I feel like Leonard Pinth-Garnell when I read some of them: Welcome to Bad Auction Writing.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Peter, I don't know what in the hell just happened but I read the above verbiage you posted and started feeling a bit dizzy. Next thing I know I'm on the ground with a bump on my head -- and my wallet was gone!

I felt safe reading the whole thing because my wallet is already empty.

[tothrk]

The reason the catalogs and descriptions go on forever is to give you something to read as the auction drags out until 5 in the morning.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jeff there is no way you read that whole description before you got sick. Impossible.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Most cards don't require much more than a few lines.

One paragraph on the background of the player

One paragraph on the card's grade and if needed; an explanation of the importance of said condition.

NOW; there are memorabilia pieces which require more detail as to explain WHY the piece exists may take a few paragraphs.

Thus; for the average collector on this board; card descriptions are too long and mem descriptions need more detail.

But we also have to remember; that not every collector knows what we DO about these cards.

Rich

The more familiar or educated a person is with an issue - the more boring the wordy "fluffed" description will likely be. I am sure the houses are adding some "newbie" bidders in each auction who I am sure have the potential to be significantly swayed with an "exciting" albeit often inflated (imo) description. This Leads to more revenue for the auction house and higher prices for the consignors. I guess the upside for the established/knowledgeable collector is more people entering the collecting world and come time for us or our heirs to sell off our collection hopefully leads to greater fruits for our efforts.

[drc]

The problem is when you have to read 1,000 words before you first learn what is being sold. I once half-jokingly said an auction house should underline the first line of the object description, so those of us who wanted could skip the novella.

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by sflayank

you could have stolen some 67 standups yesterday at mile high

If the 1967 Test Stand-Ups that sold last night were from the Charlie Conlon Collection copies sold in REA, someone really took a huge loss. When REA sold them in May 2009, they went for 5x to 12x as much, depending on which lot they came from.

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2009/843.html

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2009/842.html

What do you think, Jeff?

[E93]

For people who don't like too much verbiage in auction catalogs, many sure like seeing their own (boringly repetitive) verbiage on the screen.

Question: WHat is more annoying: lengthy auction item descriptions, or people complaining about the same thing over and over and over again?

[drc]

I don't repeat myself. I rephrase.

[B O'Brien]

Originally Posted by E93

For people who don't like too much verbiage in auction catalogs, many sure like seeing their own (boringly repetitive) verbiage on the screen.

Question: WHat is more annoying: lengthy auction item descriptions, or people complaining about the same thing over and over and over again?

Well put.

I could care less how long or flowery they are.

If you don't like the description, don't read it. I don't mind them, they make for good bathroom reading when I don't feel like grabbing War and Peace for a five minute trip. I am sure that some of the write ups have contributed to the bottom line at least a couple times, when someone that was not as familiar with the item as others, got swayed by the description.

Has anyone ever not bid on something because the description was long or flowery? I doubt it. Has one ever added just one more bid increase? I am willing to put money on it.

Anyone that has to deal with sales people (I am not one, but deal with them all the time), know that there is going to be some BS involved, it is just part of the deal.

That is just one man's opinion, and that man is Bob!
Take care
Bob

I don't feel like down loading the spell check, so feel free to knock a feller for growing up in the public school system and relying on Outlook to fix my work mistakes. Now go eat at Popeyes, chicken that makes you feel good about things!

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by E93

For people who don't like too much verbiage in auction catalogs, many sure like seeing their own (boringly repetitive) verbiage on the screen.

Question: WHat is more annoying: lengthy auction item descriptions, or people complaining about the same thing over and over and over again?

The latter; the auction eventually ends.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by tothrk

The reason the catalogs and descriptions go on forever is to give you something to read as the auction drags out until 5 in the morning.

That's nothing!

The last auction I bid in (last month) didn't end until 0720 Central Time!!!!!


Steve

[calvindog]

Jim, if you don't like reading about obvious fraud in our hobby I would suggest averting your eyes. And I'm really sorry if I annoyed you; I'd hate to have funked up your chi. I'll make you a deal though: when the fraud stops, I'll stop.

[E93]

Jeff,
I believe my post was about the bitching about verbose auction catalog write-ups. If on your own self-reflection you found that the comment may have had relevance for the way you make accusations of fraud, so be it. I will leave it to you to figure out your own "chi" on that one - whatever it is you mean by that.
JimB
P.S. I appreciate you trying to push my buttons with the "chi" reference, but FYI, uninformed random remarks that pull any old term from any old Asian religion and display a clear lack of understanding of the traditions, only make you look silly at best.

[calvindog]

Jim, I assumed you were being critical of me because you've routinely blasted me in the most passive-aggressive manner about my daring to discuss Goodwin's ridiculous auction results. When you were critical again here, I assumed it was yet another passive-aggressive attempt to deflect me. I am forever shamed by this error I may have made.

As for chi, I'll have you know that I'm a big Duke basketball fan and Shane Battier once scored 27 points against Maryland -- then his career high. After the game he credited his offensive breakout to the inner strength — or chi — of the Shaolin monks of China. So if Shane Battier can mix sports and chi, so can I.

[Al C.risafulli]

If I consigned something to an auction house - whether it be something really rare like a really difficult type card, or something common like a 1967 Topps set, if I opened the auction catalog and saw a two-sentence description, I would be pissed and probably would never use that auction house again.

I want to know that the auction house has made every possible effort to present my consignment in the best possible light. The more descriptive of the item, the more pictures, the more background, the better.

As a bidder, nobody has to read the descriptions. If you don't like them, by all means, just look at the pictures.

But when I win a Henry Johnson Confectioners Ty Cobb for $400 in an auction because the description simply read "1922 W575-1 Ty Cobb with H. Johnson Confectioners back" and didn't describe the rarity of that particular card, well, if I were the consigner, I'd be out of my mind. And I have a really difficult time finding an example where an item didn't sell because the description was too LONG.

-Al

[kylebicking]

Someone really paid $41,000 for these:

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2009/842.html

Who ever bought these deserves a punch in the throat. Seriously... a bunch of late 60s test cards that have no historical value.

Why not spend your money on these:
http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...n/2009/15.html
or
http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2009/143.html
or
http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2009/186.html

[barrysloate]

Al- I'm not sure I would judge the quality of an auction description by its length. A good write up should include all pertinent information, a detailed description of the condition, as well as a little puffery if it truly is a great item.

I would agree that two sentences is a bit short, but in the past I've been consigned, for example, T205 and T206 commons (generally in mid to high grade). How much can I say about them? Should I just keep rambling on to give the impression that I really do have a lot to say?

I would prefer some lots to have short write ups, while other significant ones to be more comprehensive. It really depends upon the item.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I wonder how the Shaolin monks would view spending so much wealth on the accumulation of baseball cards?

[chiprop]

Jeff- You're like an old man who keeps telling the same story. Eventually everyone will ignore the same post over and over. I would actually be in your corner if you had some solid info other than selling price. The e107 Young in the past has sold for as much as $100k. Last night it sold for a fraction of that. Why? How did REA get such high prices on the 1967 Test Stand-ups when last nights auction provided the consigner a fraction of the price? If something smells fishy, it may be time to change the depends. I hope you take our banter as jest. I think you bring up some interesting closing figures, but until I see something else, I don't think too many people are gonna get behind you. In every auction there are ridiculous prices high and low. Anyone can find them.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

But when I win a Henry Johnson Confectioners Ty Cobb for $400 in an auction ...

-Al

Al, that was cold, man, very cold.