OT: Derek Jeter Forgeries On Counterfeit Cards

[Yastrzemski Sports]

He has sold quite a number of autos of Koufax, Harper, Jeter, Kobe, Mays, Unitas, Ali and Pujols. All the same ones the other guy has. And I just noticed a bunch of 2010 Platinum Trout autos.

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

This forged Jeter was sold by Ebay seller Lyonhrt777.

First, the auction itself and then a screenshot of the Negative Feedback posted by the buyer and then the reply from the seller.

Unbelievable.

[bnorth]

tntnorthnj has been called out on a few forums for selling fake items.

That ebay ID is Ted Straka of TNT Sportscards. They set up at several shows. Maybe someone should look at the inventory they have at these shows and see if they have any of these cards with them.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by bnorth

tntnorthnj has been called out on a few forums for selling fake items.

That ebay ID is Ted Straka of TNT Sportscards. They set up at several shows. Maybe someone should look at the inventory they have at these shows and see if they have any of these cards with them.

I recently purchased (it is on its way) an authentic Derek Jeter autographed 1995 UD card.

If anyone observes one of the forged cards, either let me know or buy it for me and I will, of course, reimburse you, and the postage.

Since my blog was posted, some have been removed and others were taken down by the sellers.

And the sellers of the forged cards have stopped listing them.

I should have waited until I secured one, but let's get one of these into my hands.

I do have the unsigned version, but I want a signed one.

Thank you.

[thetruthisoutthere]

I never heard of the below website before, but they have one listed (the forged one).

Is the below the actual HOF website? Never saw it before.



Jeter1995ForgedBaseballHall-1.jpg

[chalupacollects]

First, the auction itself and then a screenshot of the Negative Feedback posted by the buyer and then the reply from the seller.

Unbelievable.


He is working his way up to "God Bless" territory

[rjackson44]

The ryans have been around for a while ,,those are scary ,,i read all of christophers posts .its sad what they do to make a buck ,sad.

[chalupacollects]

[QUOTE=thetruthisoutthere;1862872]I never heard of the below website before, but they have one listed (the forged one).

Is the below the actual HOF website? Never saw it before.



What's the url?

[Yastrzemski Sports]

It certainly does look like they are trying to distance themselves from the cards and remove all of the evidence. But when you have a 2+ year history of selling the cards you can’t hide what’s already done.
Yes that card is for sale on the HOF site. I’ll let them know on Monday that they were fooled. Maybe they can get involved.

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

I recently purchased (it is on its way) an authentic Derek Jeter autographed 1995 UD card.

If anyone observes one of the forged cards, either let me know or buy it for me and I will, of course, reimburse you, and the postage.

Since my blog was posted, some have been removed and others were taken down by the sellers.

And the sellers of the forged cards have stopped listing them.

I should have waited until I secured one, but let's get one of these into my hands.

I do have the unsigned version, but I want a signed one.

Thank you.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

It certainly does look like they are trying to distance themselves from the cards and remove all of the evidence. But when you have a 2+ year history of selling the cards you can’t hide what’s already done.
Yes that card is for sale on the HOF site. I’ll let them know on Monday that they were fooled. Maybe they can get involved.

Adam, I did send them an email yesterday.

Like I previously wrote, I want to get one of the forged ones in my hands.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Here is my authentic Derek Jeter 1995 UD card.

As you can clearly see, they are major differences between the authentic ones and the forged counterfeit ones sold by sellers Tntnorthnj, lyonhrt777, brjohnc, richyoun8 and others.



Jeter1995AuthenticMine-1.jpg

Jeter1995AuthenticMine-2.jpg

[thetruthisoutthere]

The one on the left is the authentic Jeter on a original UD card.

The one on the right is the forged version on a counterfeit card.



Jeter1995AuthenticandForgery-1.jpg

[bigfanNY]

This is a fake purchased from Tnt still has their tamper resistant tag on it. But you can see clearly from pictures it is a fake. The easiest way is the Derek Jeter name in silver on the bottom. see how only the top 2/3 of the star are reproduced. As well as both of the letter R's are different the fakes have a curl on bottom. Also on the bottom where it say SS look at the fake the tops of both S's have a dark shadow on the top insted of being pure white like on the real card. The signature is bad (you can tell when you look at enough good ones ) The back also has tells down on bottom right Upper Deck trade mark see how the edges are not clean. And small letters are slightly fuzzy. What is worse is the large amount that has been sold of these 2000 UD Koufax , 2001 Johnny Unitas UD Legends, 1997 Willie Mays Topps Heritage autos. and on and on. This is bad and it looks like NJ and NY are where it started. And worse continues.
Hope this helps.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Great input, Jonathan.

The more I look, the more discrepancies I find.

I posted a side-by-side just before your post.

[Ryan1125]

Just absolutely sickening. It's bad enough to be a kitchen forger scribbling on your cheap base cards and committing fraud, it's somehow an even lower layer of absolute scum to have this type of "production" process in place. Local authorities should be involved, and if pressed eBay could pop these guys in two seconds. It's simple...follow the money trail.

I am so sick of eBay allowing and enabling absolute FRAUD/SCAMS to the highest degree. I understand they cannot authenticate every item in the world, but there absolutely should be a knowledgeable department handling the reports on questionable items IMHO.

The side of this people forget about, is owners of REAL 95 UD Jeter autos have had their investment DEVALUED over and over every time one of these sells in the flooded market these crooks artificially created...it's infuriating and why true collectors have to rally together and spread the knowledge on this kind of stuff. Thank you Christopher for all you do for our hobby.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

To me, it casts doubt on almost anything. The one I bought had the “anti counterfeit” hologram and foil on the front. This was a high quality forgery. I do this for a living and I didn’t think twice about the Jeter when it was in my hand. I can spot a fake vintage card from across the room but this got me. I can’t speak for the rest of the Jeter cards sold by them but if there are many of these in circulation then people are going to run in the opposite direction when they see them - real or fake.

eBay isn’t to blame for this. They provide a market place and these guys have found a way to work their system. The only way they can avoid this is to demand that every card sold is graded and that’s unrealistic. If we start holding public websites responsible for everything posted then every social media site would have to close. No site that deals with the volume that eBay can keep up with every person and every post on it. It would take an army just to tackle the 1952 Mantles.

Originally Posted by Ryan1125

Just absolutely sickening. It's bad enough to be a kitchen forger scribbling on your cheap base cards and committing fraud, it's somehow an even lower layer of absolute scum to have this type of "production" process in place. Local authorities should be involved, and if pressed eBay could pop these guys in two seconds. It's simple...follow the money trail.

I am so sick of eBay allowing and enabling absolute FRAUD/SCAMS to the highest degree. I understand they cannot authenticate every item in the world, but there absolutely should be a knowledgeable department handling the reports on questionable items IMHO.

The side of this people forget about, is owners of REAL 95 UD Jeter autos have had their investment DEVALUED over and over every time one of these sells in the flooded market these crooks artificially created...it's infuriating and why true collectors have to rally together and spread the knowledge on this kind of stuff. Thank you Christopher for all you do for our hobby.

[Ryan1125]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

eBay isn’t to blame for this. They provide a market place and these guys have found a way to work their system. The only way they can avoid this is to demand that every card sold is graded and that’s unrealistic.

In the most simplest form: eBay profits millions and millions of dollars from forgeries, and provides a platform for these thieves. Without eBay, these guys scam is MUCH harder to thrive from IMHO.

I agree it is a very hard, nearly impossible task to rid eBay of all forgeries/scams/etc. But they should absolutely have some experienced collectors/former authenticators/etc. monitoring this stuff 24/7 and yanking obvious junk, while staying up to date with reporting. I report obvious forgeries all of the time, and it never gets yanked anymore. Most of these little scammers you can see from a mile away. Yank their stuff, and ban them. It should not be as easy as "downloading an app" to run a multi-thousand (or even million) dollar forgery scam.

Even from a moral standpoint if I owned eBay, I would want my customers to feel safe buying stuff on my website. And I certainly would work with local authorities to provide information on scammers/forgery rings that reach this level.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Ryan1125

Just absolutely sickening. It's bad enough to be a kitchen forger scribbling on your cheap base cards and committing fraud, it's somehow an even lower layer of absolute scum to have this type of "production" process in place. Local authorities should be involved, and if pressed eBay could pop these guys in two seconds. It's simple...follow the money trail.

I am so sick of eBay allowing and enabling absolute FRAUD/SCAMS to the highest degree. I understand they cannot authenticate every item in the world, but there absolutely should be a knowledgeable department handling the reports on questionable items IMHO.

The side of this people forget about, is owners of REAL 95 UD Jeter autos have had their investment DEVALUED over and over every time one of these sells in the flooded market these crooks artificially created...it's infuriating and why true collectors have to rally together and spread the knowledge on this kind of stuff. Thank you Christopher for all you do for our hobby.

Ryan, thank you, and it is disgusting and it's fraud.

I am trying to get law enforcement involved in this.

This is the kind of crap that autograph collectors have to deal and compete with.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Ryan1125

In the most simplest form: eBay profits millions and millions of dollars from forgeries, and provides a platform for these thieves. Without eBay, these guys scam is MUCH harder to thrive from IMHO.

I agree it is a very hard, nearly impossible task to rid eBay of all forgeries/scams/etc. But they should absolutely have some experienced collectors/former authenticators/etc. monitoring this stuff 24/7 and yanking obvious junk, while staying up to date with reporting. I report obvious forgeries all of the time, and it never gets yanked anymore. Most of these little scammers you can see from a mile away. Yank their stuff, and ban them. It should not be as easy as "downloading an app" to run a multi-thousand (or even million) dollar forgery scam.

Even from a moral standpoint if I owned eBay, I would want my customers to feel safe buying stuff on my website. And I certainly would work with local authorities to provide information on scammers/forgery rings that reach this level.

Ebay has no morals--It's only about the flood of money they receive from the sales of forgeries.

Look how long the sellers of the Florida forgeries have been permitted to sell their forgeries printed on inkjet paper.

And what about so-called "forensic authenticators" like Stephen Rocchi and GFA!!!

[Huck]

Oh, this creases me. I would have simply bought the back. If it is not already happened the Jeter 2000 Fleer Greats of the Game autograph is next.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Perform a Ebay search on "Sold Auctions" of the below "2000 Upper Deck Chirography Sandy Koufax" auto card of Sandy Koufax.

Check out the Ebay seller names.

Same sellers who have been selling the forged Derek Jeter counterfeit UD card.

Screenshots:



koufax-1.jpg

koufax-2.jpg

koufax-3.jpg

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

They also seem to have a large supply of 2009 Harper autos, 2000 Kobe autos, 2003 mays autos, 1992 Ali autos, 1997 mays autos, 2001 Unitas autos, 2001 starr autos, 2003 pujols autos and 2000 Skybox Brady rookies to go along with the Jeter autos and 2017 judge blank back cards. Looks like thousands $$ per month in sales.

Yep.

It extends to:

2000 Koufax Chirography Autos.

2000 Kobe Ovation.

2003 Mays Topps Legends.

The same sellers have been selling these in numbers.

I am sure there are other cards.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Same sellers.

Just a small sampling.




KobeAllSellers-1.jpg

[thetruthisoutthere]

Look at the Kobe cards below.

Observe the small "r" in the word "Signatures" on the bottom of both cards.

If you have a magnifier on your PC, you will see what I am referring to.




KobeBoth-1.jpg

[Michael B]

Chris,

There are a lot of clues in the forgeries. I am assuming the one on the left is the fake. The size of the overall image on the cardstock. The UD logo is almost touching the edge on the one on the left. More of the basketball is cut off. The four highlight lines on the right hand side are almost missing. The overall balance is way off.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Michael B

Chris,

There are a lot of clues in the forgeries. I am assuming the one on the left is the fake. The size of the overall image on the cardstock. The UD logo is almost touching the edge on the one on the left. More of the basketball is cut off. The four highlight lines on the right hand side are almost missing. The overall balance is way off.

Absolutely correct, Michael.

These are all over Ebay.

[shelly]

Chris, call your girl at the FBI

[rjackson44]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

Someone has been faking these for a few years now. The same people have made fake 2017 Judge heritage blank back cards.

Agreed unreal it wont end ever;;

[bigfanNY]

TnT north jersey Has a 2017 Blank back Aaron Judge listed in their sold items. They used to set up at White plains. I will definitely go next show and see if they still set up snd have any of these cards. Such a shame.
For clarity most of the Willie Mays fakes have been listed as 1997 Topps not 2003. Both are in the style of 1964 topps so any 1964 looking Mays auto should send up a red flag.
There has been an article written about 2001 Upper deck legends Football fakes Johnny Unitas is one of many.
Based on how the cards look in hand I don't think they would pass any TPG but I would be very careful even with one of them.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

TnT north jersey Has a 2017 Blank back Aaron Judge listed in their sold items. They used to set up at White plains. I will definitely go next show and see if they still set up snd have any of these cards. Such a shame.
For clarity most of the Willie Mays fakes have been listed as 1997 Topps not 2003. Both are in the style of 1964 topps so any 1964 looking Mays auto should send up a red flag.
There has been an article written about 2001 Upper deck legends Football fakes Johnny Unitas is one of many.
Based on how the cards look in hand I don't think they would pass any TPG but I would be very careful even with one of them.

Part 2 of my blog will be published soon.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Michael B

Chris,

There are a lot of clues in the forgeries. I am assuming the one on the left is the fake. The size of the overall image on the cardstock. The UD logo is almost touching the edge on the one on the left. More of the basketball is cut off. The four highlight lines on the right hand side are almost missing. The overall balance is way off.

Michael, good catch on the location of the basketball.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Link to part 2.


https://live.autographmagazine.com/p...er-deck-baseba

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Michael, good catch on the location of the basketball.

Thank you Chris, I appreciate that. Being a very advanced amateur photographer, 40 years of concerts and wildlife, I am very visual. I tend to look at the whole, then break down the parts. I do legal research as a career and it also applies there. Just don't ask me to pick out a Mantle, Joe D. or Mays forgery. I will leave that to those of you that have done that for years. I will stick with Olympic signatures.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Thank you, Michael.

[Kco]

I can talk from the industry side on this issue a little bit as I was with Steiner Sports for nearly a decade. I can’t talk to Upper Decks policies regarding forgeries or infringements but saying Steiner Sports doesn’t care would be an overstatement and probably an oversimplification.

Actually, they do care, they are just limited in what they can do. From my time there running e-commerce, When blatant fakes were posted on eBay or other stores and brought to the attention of the right people, we flagged and contacted eBay to have items removed. As for websites we found selling fake or questionable items, C&D letters were drafted and sent to the sites owners. Unfortunately as you can imagine, there are literally millions of Steiner Sports items on the marketplace from all different eras, and it’s virtually impossible to go after every item and listing. It’s part of why each of these bigger companies always encourage you to buy direct or from a licensed retailer to ensure legitimacy.

I’m also talking to what I know from my time there, which ended in 2014, but when I was there we did in fact do what we could to stop blatant fakes and forgeries. Can’t really say what their practice is these days

[Kco]

Additionally, it’s a big piece of the reason why Steiner moved to individual numbered holograms, since the generic ones had a propensity to fall off over time and were easily swapped to a fake item unfortunately.

I’m also not saying that any of these companies do enough, but it’s a massive resource allocation from a personnel stand point.

Look at the recent influx of Tom Brady fake memorabilia with legitimate appearing Holograms. They even lifted real hologram IDs to use on fake product, as I said VERY difficult to chase it all down.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Kco

I can talk from the industry side on this issue a little bit as I was with Steiner Sports for nearly a decade. I can’t talk to Upper Decks policies regarding forgeries or infringements but saying Steiner Sports doesn’t care would be an overstatement and probably an oversimplification.

Actually, they do care, they are just limited in what they can do. From my time there running e-commerce, When blatant fakes were posted on eBay or other stores and brought to the attention of the right people, we flagged and contacted eBay to have items removed. As for websites we found selling fake or questionable items, C&D letters were drafted and sent to the sites owners. Unfortunately as you can imagine, there are literally millions of Steiner Sports items on the marketplace from all different eras, and it’s virtually impossible to go after every item and listing. It’s part of why each of these bigger companies always encourage you to buy direct or from a licensed retailer to ensure legitimacy.

I’m also talking to what I know from my time there, which ended in 2014, but when I was there we did in fact do what we could to stop blatant fakes and forgeries. Can’t really say what their practice is these days

Sorry, Kevin, I am not letting them off the hook.

[Kco]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Sorry, Kevin, I am not letting them off the hook.

Chris, nor should you. I’m not defending their current lack of activity, I wish they did more to protect the brand and their customers. I’m just explaining how it worked when I was with them for any insight or provides as a whole.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Kco

It’s part of why each of these bigger companies always encourage you to buy direct or from a licensed retailer to ensure legitimacy

I appreciate you explaining.

I have heard others make the point above and it is puzzling to me. Why bother even putting on a hologram if "the only safe place to buy" is direct from Steiner? What about all the legit resellers who purchase dealer bulk from Steiner? This screws them, doesn't it? And it doesn't say much about a collector's ability to sell down the road on the secondary market.

I know it is not easily solved and a never-ending game of whack-a-mole. But I believe these companies must be very aggressive in policing their brand. If the fake sticker sellers keep getting wiped out on ebay enough times, they will eventually move onto something else.

[Kco]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

I appreciate you explaining.

I have heard others make the point above and it is puzzling to me. Why bother even putting on a hologram if "the only safe place to buy" is direct from Steiner? What about all the legit resellers who purchase dealer bulk from Steiner? This screws them, doesn't it? And it doesn't say much about a collector's ability to sell down the road on the secondary market.

I know it is not easily solved and a never-ending game of whack-a-mole. But I believe these companies must be very aggressive in policing their brand. If the fake sticker sellers keep getting wiped out on ebay enough times, they will eventually move onto something else.

There more recent lack of any activity bothers me as well, while I was there we at least actively attempted to track these down and rid them from the industry the best we could. The reason they always say buy direct or from an authorized dealer that is purchasing at wholesale is for chain of custody on the item.

On the flip side I understand most people’s point of view of why bother if it’s technically meaningless. There is no perfect answer as we all know their are plenty of unscrupulous people out there looking for a way to make easy money and take advantage of the trust behind a reputable COA. Unfortunately there is no easy fix, short of holograms that ALSO match to pictures of the exact item online.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Kco

Chris, nor should you. I’m not defending their current lack of activity, I wish they did more to protect the brand and their customers. I’m just explaining how it worked when I was with them for any insight or provides as a whole.

Thank you, Kevin, I appreciate that.

I agree with Steve.

I just don't get it.

Aside from their "authentic" items being over-priced, I'm turned of by their "turn-the-other-way" attitude.

[thetruthisoutthere]

This is a no-brainer Sandy Koufax forgery.

The card stock does not look correct.

The same sellers who have been listing and selling those forged Jeter counterfeit cards, have also been selling these like hotcakes.

This is listed on Ebay now.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sandy-Koufa...7ea7%7Ciid%3A1




KoufaxCounterfeitJoanne-2.jpg

[thetruthisoutthere]

This forged Koufax card is listed by Ebay seller Lyonhrt7777 who is one of those sellers who sold the Jeter forgeries like they were coming off an assembly line.



https://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-SP-AUT...4AAOSwykpchG26



koufaxLyonhrt-3.jpg

[thetruthisoutthere]

Sold by Ebay seller tntnorthnj (who has sold quite a few of these).

Koufax is forged.


KoufaxTNTForged-2.jpg


Card is counterfeit. The "Sandy Koufax" should be farther away from the border of the card. Grainy-looking card.



KoufaxTNTForged-3.jpg

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Ryan1125

I am so sick of eBay allowing and enabling absolute FRAUD/SCAMS to the highest degree. I understand they cannot authenticate every item in the world, but there absolutely should be a knowledgeable department handling the reports on questionable items IMHO.

Ebay had a department consisting of volunteers to police the autograph market, some are members here.
They disbanded the group, along with John Gonzalez an eBay employee, because the group was doing its work very well and removing many bogus items. That was costing eBay too much money

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Ebay had a department consisting of volunteers to police the autograph market, some are members here.
They disbanded the group, along with John Gonzalez an eBay employee, because the group was doing its work very well and removing many bogus items. That was costing eBay too much money

For sure!!!!

[thetruthisoutthere]

By the way, I have one of those forged/counterfeit Sandy Koufax cards coming to me.

[thetruthisoutthere]

This is exactly what I thought would happen....

When buyers of the forged/counterfeit Sandy Koufax 2000 SP Authentic cards discover what they really own they will consign them to consignment specialists like Probstein123...

He recently sold one for $157.50.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-SP-Aut...p2047675.l2557




KoufaxProbstein-2.jpg

KoufaxProbstein-3.jpg

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Have you spoken to the guys at probstein to let them know? They may need to know about all of the different forgeries out there so they can avoid them.

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

This is exactly what I thought would happen....

When buyers of the forged/counterfeit Sandy Koufax 2000 SP Authentic cards discover what they really own they will consign them to consignment specialists like Probstein123...

He recently sold one for $157.50.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-SP-Aut...p2047675.l2557




Attachment 349320

Attachment 349322

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

Have you spoken to the guys at probstein to let them know? They may need to know about all of the different forgeries out there so they can avoid them.

Adam, Probstein123 (Rick) has never responded to my emails over the years when I inform him of a forgery in his listings.

He sold one of these a couple of years ago.



https://live.autographmagazine.com/f...ource=activity

[thetruthisoutthere]

Same sellers as the Jeter and Koufax cards.

Just like the Koufax cards that came out of the 2000 SP Authentic product, which was a tough pull, same with the Johnny Unitas 2001 Upper Deck Legends card.



unitas-9.jpg

unitas-6.jpg

unitas-3.jpg

Unitas-1.jpg

unitas-7.JPG