Wondering why...T206 Shag Shaughnessy

[green rhino123]

Not wondering why this card sells for so much...I am wondering why it sells for 3x the price guide(s) value with out fail. I mean - the price of this card hasn't gone anywhere for a couple years, yet it sells for so much more. What is it really worth or why don't the guides reflect the actual value in the least? Seems like a big difference. Makes no sense to me.

[green rhino123]

Other T206s have price activity, but this one doesn't, yet...

[packs]

People say its the pose. I've seen plenty of great poses on baseball cards that sell for nothing and plenty of good players with horrible poses on cards that sell for hundreds and thousands. Makes no sense to me either. At this point I think its just a trader novelty meme that has been drummed up and furthered by collectors who think its fun to get one.

[tedzan]

Simple reason for the relative scarcity and higher price than most of the 47 other Southern Leaguers......the law of "supply vs demand".

Frank Shaughnessy was a Notre Dame graduate and while there played BB and FB. Had very briefly careers with Washington and the A's.
He went on to be GM of the Montreal Royals and followed that up by being President of the International League.

Furthermore, coached FB at Yale Cornell, etc. Alternated coaching FB at McGill (Montreal) while GM with the Royals. Frank is in Canada’s
BB Hall of Fame and FB Hall of Fame.

So, he has quite a following.


TED Z

[packs]

Do you really think thats why though? I've seen plenty of collectors at shows asking dealers for the card because they heard its hard to get. I never heard anyone mention they sought the card because of his ties to Notre Dame or football. It seems to me that the card only took off in recent years when everyone on the board wanted one, and more than just the one necessary to complete the set.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by green rhino123

Not wondering why this card sells for so much...I am wondering why it sells for 3x the price guide(s) value with out fail. I mean - the price of this card hasn't gone anywhere for a couple years, yet it sells for so much more. What is it really worth or why don't the guides reflect the actual value in the least? Seems like a big difference. Makes no sense to me.

I don't know what price guide you are using, but most price guides are inaccurate for pre-war cards. They may do a decent job for most cards in popular issues, but for tougher commons or tough sets, you're better off seeing actual sales prices.

[tedzan]

I have been collecting T206's for 30 years and Shaughnessy has been a tough card to find for many, many years.
He was a very well liked guy by many whose lives he touched. And, this T206 card is essentially the only BB card
that is available. His other cards, whatever few there are, are not that available.


TED Z

[sgbernard]

Ted, I'm not sure I agree: when I sold my T206s in 2007, Shag was selling for a little premium over other SLers, but not much. Basically, I think I remember him selling like one of the rarer SLers, which is fair. Prices are really high now, and I think it's mostly due to people discovering the pose (partly because of this board) and wanting an example. I had never heard the Notre Dame connection, but I had heard on Net54 a dozen times how cool that card with a green background and a popped collar looks. I bet if you search for "popped collar" you'll come up with a few threads. I would reckon it's the image and its popularity, and not Shag's other connections at work here.

This isn't a bad thing, but this board does have a bit of a "kingmaker" effect on certain cards. We're a community, and when someone comes on saying how cool this card or that one is, we're apt to want it, and that's going to drive the price up. I can definitely think of other examples of this (T206 Rhodes arm outstretched, T206 Ritchey with the "dove" come to mind. E90-1 Oakes is another).

[Leon]

Originally Posted by sgbernard

Ted, I'm not sure I agree: when I sold my T206s in 2007, Shag was selling for a little premium over other SLers, but not much. Basically, I think I remember him selling like one of the rarer SLers, which is fair. Prices are really high now, and I think it's mostly due to people discovering the pose (partly because of this board) and wanting an example. I had never heard the Notre Dame connection, but I had heard on Net54 a dozen times how cool that card with a green background and a popped collar looks. I bet if you search for "popped collar" you'll come up with a few threads. I would reckon it's the image and its popularity, and not Shag's other connections at work here.

This isn't a bad thing, but this board does have a bit of a "kingmaker" effect on certain cards. We're a community, and when someone comes on saying how cool this card or that one is, we're apt to want it, and that's going to drive the price up. I can definitely think of other examples of this (T206 Rhodes arm outstretched, T206 Ritchey with the "dove" come to mind. E90-1 Oakes is another).

There are thousands of collectors outside of Net54baseball.com but it does seem like when the gang gets on the bandwagon the prices go up. I have seen it happen numerous times. Shag just has a following and if I had to guess it would be all of the above, that makes the price higher than most other SL'ers. When I picked up my E222 Shag (along with my AWA), many years ago, from my now partner Scott B., I posted it on the board and Scott Forrest said he thought it looked like Dracula. Now every time I see a Shag I think of Barnabus Collins...kind of weird, I know.

[sgbernard]

Originally Posted by Leon

There are thousands of collectors outside of Net54baseball.com.

Leon, first, yes, he looks like Barnabas Collins, but that makes your card distinctly "Non-sports" and it doesn't fit into your collection, so you will have to sell it to me.

Are there really thousands of collectors for pre-war cards that aren't on Net54? I've been here long enough to see, ahem, "splinter" groups form, and some of these groups have gone their separate ways.
I guess there are the whales who don't really post, and a couple dealers who don't. But I would wager that most people who are buying T206s will google "T206", find the board, and head that way at least once. At least they find "OldCardboard" and then they click on the link here. Am I exaggerating to think that 50-75% (maybe more) of people who collect pre-war at least lurk on this board? I've never been to the National, but at the Philly show, most of the people I see are those that I have seen on this board at some point. I think we have more power than we think to influence a card's popularity (and price).

[pgellis]

I thought that I had heard that a few years ago (or more), someone decided to try to corner the market on the T206 Shaughnessy card. They bought up all the examples that they could get their hands on and then, later, talked up the buzz on the card to try inflate their manufactured scarcity of this card.

Maybe just a rumor, but that is what I recall hearing about this particular card.

[toppcat]

I had to pay about triple book for my example last year and was happy to nail it, having lost out on quite a few prior. The whole Southern Leaguer/Rockin' Do/Historical Figure/HOF'er-here-and-there appeal of the card has to have an effect on it.

[bbcard1]

I picked up a Canadian Goudey of Shag...the playoff system he designed and that bears his name is still in use in some leagues, I understand.

[T206Collector]

...is all I can think of when it comes to this card, which also reminds me of the Rhoades Arm Extended hype of a few years ago.

[Leon]

I should have qualified my response a little bit. I think if we were to say "serious pre-war baseball card collectors on the internet"....then I think we capture a majority by some measure...maybe just a little over a majority but I would think at least 51% have at least seen (or heard of) Net54baseball.com. I was sort of thinking ALL baseball card collectors, and in that case, I think we are a very small fraction of total baseball card collectors. I would guess a very, very small percentage. All that being said I don't know of any better forums for pre-war baseball cards but I am biased. best regards

[rhettyeakley]

Her is some Shag errata I have posted in the past...


post #1
Some career highlights of Shag:
-Notre Dame Football player (1901-04) -also played baseball there
-Purported to have introduced the Option play to American Football
-Minor League baseball manager for 3 decades
-President of International League from 1936-1960
-Canadian Football Hall of Fame
-Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame
-First cards were produced around 1910 (T206, E222, & T209-2)
-Last card was the 1964 Topps Award Banquet set (Card also features Jackie Robinson)

post #2
Shaughnessy had a very long career as a baseball player, manager, and then became president of the International League for nearly 30 years, that is what (in my opinion) makes him a more desirable card to have than any other SL card. Not to mention he was captain of the 1904 Notre Dame football team. He is also a member of the Canadian Football HOF (was also head coach of Clemson a few years after John Heisman), and is in the Canadian baseball HOF. In all seriousness Frank Shaughnessy is one of the most important "forgotten" sports figures of the early 20th century.

New Post-------------------------------------------------------
**It is no coincidence that over time people that were once viewed as "commons" are found to be much more than that. Just recently it was discovered a player the T209-2 set was a longtime coach of the South Carolina FB team (making him more desirable), the E254 of McCarthy that had sold as a common for years is know known to be a young Joe McCarthy, the 1919 Zeenut of Driscoll is the FB HOFer Paddy Driscoll, etc. etc. Also, keep in mind for a LONG time 1919 Black Sox cards sold for little to no premium over commons (except Jackson of course)

Much of this is due to the internet and the ability to do a lot of research in a short amount of time (something nearly impossible until the net came about). Shag has more going for him than a lot of people that are overcommon (ie Fred McMullin).

Whether he sells for more because he is viewed as being tough (to the t206 collector), the strange image (to the novelty card collector), or because of his historical significance (to the collector of the history of the game--I would include myself here) it all adds up to the card selling for more than your average T206 southern leaguer.

-Rhett

[Jacklitsch]

Originally Posted by pgellis

I thought that I had heard that a few years ago (or more), someone decided to try to corner the market on the T206 Shaughnessy card. They bought up all the examples that they could get their hands on and then, later, talked up the buzz on the card to try inflate their manufactured scarcity of this card.

Maybe just a rumor, but that is what I recall hearing about this particular card.

I think Huggins of Huggins & Scott had 27 of them at a recent Sun Time show.

[terjung]

I always thought it was due to the combination of his name and his hair that made it stand-out and more highly collectible.

[MVSNYC]

i believe it was Huggins of Huggins & Scott, who has been collecting them, he said "just because he likes the pose & the green background". i'm sure that has effected the price.

at the Nat'l 2 years ago, he had TONS of them in their both.

[ethicsprof]

i still think old hippies cherish the card because of the hair style!

best,
barry

[Orioles1954]

I know someone who has 23 Shag's, do you think that would effect the price that much?

[DixieBaseball]

A lot of good points on Shag... I really think the Net 54 Board has increased it's value at least 2 fold. It is talked about often, and has become a Net 54 Icon in a way. I remember not too many years ago, when it was hardly ever mentioned... It is a cool card, and has a mystique about it. I swear he looks like Old Hickory with Black hair.

[tedzan]

A mature Frank






And, here's my "shag" (Photo of my daughter Zoe's 10th Birthday Mar 17, 1976)





So, show us your "shag" ?

TED Z

[green rhino123]

I have now seen more of this card in the last month than all of last year...I guess it peaked.

[danmckee]

T206 Shaughnessy has been considered very tough and very popular for 30+ years as Ted states. See Ted, this is why you can have this board. You offer some educated points and you get argued with. Amazing.

[tedzan]

You're absolutely correct....but, do I look worried ?

I still have that same smile as my above picture from 34 years ago.


Best regards ole buddy,

TED Z

[JP]

I'm in the "don't believe the hype" camp. I've seen everything from Sid Smith and Juan Viola(t) selling at ten times book, to the next month selling at book, almost unprecented for rare SLer. Some of the recent asking prices of Shags have been ridiculous. A choice few will overpay and then the market will settle -- much like the housing market. It may be 10 years before another Shag PSA 5 sells for $800. I'd bank on $400 happening first.

[FrankWakefield]

I thought Shag had been discussed before, here....

My thinking was that Shag was so involved in sports for years after his playing days, that it created a demand for his card that got the card out of the hands of normal collectors and more into the mainstream public. Once that happens, it becomes more likely that the cards disappear. Ted Z does a good job of describing Shag's sports involvement.

It would be like the cards of football player Michael Oher, who's story is portrayed in The Blind Side. Some folks will buy that card and it will be their only football card. Some will give it to a kid they took to the movie. 50 years from now the Oher cards that were in collections will probably still be there, with the other cards. But the Oher cards that went into the hands of the mainstream public, those cards will get lost in a junk drawer, stuffed in a box, or one day thrown into the trash.

So I think that in the 20s, 30s, and 40s some folks wanted a Shag card who weren't interested in any of the other Southern Leagers.... and some of those cards have gone missing.

[JP]

Using that same argument, can't you say that more Shag cards have survived because of his interest post-baseball? And they've been taken care of better by owners? There are a whole bunch in excellent or better condition, so I wouldn't mind biding my time to get one if I was interested...

[FrankWakefield]

Not at all...

A rare book in the hands of a book collector is known and appreciated. Once it falls into the hands of someone who cares not about books, then it could end up in a box in an attic, a yard sale, a garage... it ends up water damaged, then discarded.

Something is more likely to survive if it stays in the hands of someone who appreciates it.

Now as for 'us' being able to obtain it... we buy most of our cards from other collectors or dealers. We buy cards from someone who has more than just one card for sale. Those single Shag cards of the 20s and 30s and 40s were less likely to make it to the hands of today's collectors than a Shag card that was in a collection.

I took my wife and kids to see The Blind Side. I thought about getting a Michael Oher card for each of my daughters, to put in their Christmas stocking. But I didn't. They'd have looked at it, figured it was the guy from the movie, thought 'cool', then it would go upstairs into their rooms, and lost. It may well have been used as a coaster up there... Cards that go into the hands of a collector are collected, held, appreciated, and more likely to survive, than the cards that go into the hands of a non-collector.

[lharri3600]

i just sold a shag om for 810

[JP]

Originally Posted by lharri3600

i just sold a shag om for 810

I was already counting that sale in my statement of $400 will happen again before $800.

[usernamealreadytaken]

I do not think the Shag-hype has peaked yet. Even if the bubble bursts, there will be many collectors, me included, who will still seek this card if for no other reason than to have it fearing it will again become elusive.