"Improving" Cards: New poll

[Jeremy102175]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Wouldn't the erasure of a pencil mark also be part of the card's journey?

Erasing, trimming, and soaking are all part of the card's journey, but only if you can tell that they occured. In each of those cases though the idea is to conceal or remove the card's imperfections. But yes, if you could tell that there was once pencil on the back of a card and that someone had attempted to erase it, that would certainly be a part of the card's history and journey. A card that has been soaked, trimmed and erased has had its 100+ year journey removed, and is now essentially a 21st century card in my eyes. I completely understand your point, but I tend to think of cleaning cards the same way coin collectors frown on cleaning coins.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by vintagerookies51

I'm most amazed by the percentage for the first one. If I accidentally bend the corner of a card then put it back into place before selling on the BST, that's unethical? To some people, even fraud? That's ridiculous to me

I think this is the most misunderstood modification on the board, not entirely sure why, but it really seems to be. The advertising for Kurt’s and the actual act of this is using moisture and rollers to press corners with damage to better and sharper condition.

How the understanding with some is that it would be flipping up a bent corner so it can slide in a toploader without an attempt to conceal is a silly debate. The corner is still bent and everyone can see it. If you have a card that is literally folded in half and you put it in a top loader it’s the same. Downgrading a repair method by comparing it with a logical manipulation to store it would be much the same as asking if deer hunting is the same as shooting up a 7-11.

[JollyElm]

I'll skip right past the burgeoning 'Snowman-Gate' (But remember when Leon put that over-the-top annoyance, Adrian, on a daily maximum post limit years ago and the site improved immeasurably overnight? Asking for a friend.), however I want to add to the 'whys' of improving cards.

Besides the two extremes (OCD and profiteering) that are the focus of most discussions (uh oh, I didn't read every thread to make sure those two topics do, in fact, make up at least 51% - or, more specifically, 50% plus a single additional mention - of the chats, so I may be in trouble with a certain data scientist), there is also the much less 'calculated' desire of just making your cards look better, because it does your heart good.

Mending a minorly bent corner, removing a stain or gunk and flattening a 'bubbly' surface are all things I've personally done to my own cards, and I think they're reasonable acts to make a card return to its proper glory. Trimming, recoloring and all of those fraudulent things are anathema to me, and are a completely different ball of wax, but I get excited if I'm able to slightly 'correct' one of my cards through far less than drastic means...and it simply makes me happy, and I do this .

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Well this is obviously correct of him to do, because he is a data scientist with perfect intuition and the main character, after all. Everyone else is always wrong, without any need for evidence or actually looking at the thing in question or even considering if the thing he is claiming is even humanly possible whatsoever, because the appeal to his ego is paramount.

This clown claiming he can detect heavy gamblers he has never met or interacted with or seen by his gut intuition with great accuracy is possibly the stupidest brag I have ever seen on this board.

All I know was I was expecting his poker winnings to be way more than reported on the poker sites with all his knowledge/intuition.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by bnorth

All I know was I was expecting his poker winnings to be way more than reported on the poker sites with all his knowledge/intuition.

Ben, those totals are not adjusted for inflation.

[G1911]

I'm not in support of estalking. I can tell he's full of shit easily enough when he claims to have impossible powers and tells blatant lies he can't support to defend his favorite fraudsters . I love free speech over everything, but it would be nice if this idiot would at least try to keep his claims plausible instead of going over-the-top with the senseless ego babble not a single person is going to believe. It's like a four year old who doesn't understand there is an objective reality outside their internal narrative.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

I'm not in support of estalking. I can tell he's full of shit easily enough when he claims to have impossible powers and tells blatant lies he can't support to defend his favorite fraudsters . I love free speech over everything, but it would be nice if this idiot would at least try to keep his claims plausible instead of going over-the-top with the senseless ego babble not a single person is going to believe. It's like a four year old who doesn't understand there is an objective reality outside their internal narrative.

There is large a gray area between responding/addressing someone and estalking, imo. As you point out, he has opened himself up to ridicule with the absurd and baseless stuff that he posts. And this goes back to his early days here too.

I have not seen posts of his in support of PWCC or in defense of them since Brent was sent packing by Fanatics. Maybe I missed them but prior to that he was a moving banner ad for PWCC, no doubt.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

… Adrian …

I haven’t thought about that guy in a long time.


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[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by G1911

I'm not in support of estalking. I can tell he's full of shit easily enough when he claims to have impossible powers and tells blatant lies he can't support to defend his favorite fraudsters . I love free speech over everything, but it would be nice if this idiot would at least try to keep his claims plausible instead of going over-the-top with the senseless ego babble not a single person is going to believe. It's like a four year old who doesn't understand there is an objective reality outside their internal narrative.

Ok. Take a breath. Maybe walk around the block.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

I don't really have a dog in this hunt but I am surprised that, as a lawyer, you took Snowman's word at face value and didn't recognize that he may have deployed a classic argument from authority. He may very well have experience creating and administering opinion polls to the public, but his LinkedIn profile indicates significant experience mainly working with complex data sets. I am not a data scientist, but I know enough statistics to know they are very different disciplines.

Who took his word at face value? I've done nothing but call BS on him.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Ok. Take a breath. Maybe walk around the block.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

Had a great run. How was your cardio today?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Jeremy102175

Erasing, trimming, and soaking are all part of the card's journey, but only if you can tell that they occured. In each of those cases though the idea is to conceal or remove the card's imperfections. But yes, if you could tell that there was once pencil on the back of a card and that someone had attempted to erase it, that would certainly be a part of the card's history and journey. A card that has been soaked, trimmed and erased has had its 100+ year journey removed, and is now essentially a 21st century card in my eyes. I completely understand your point, but I tend to think of cleaning cards the same way coin collectors frown on cleaning coins.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply and I see your point. To relate it to my collection, I sometimes bid on GU flannels that have vintage team number changes. This was commonplace back in the pre-1972 era. But I never bid on jerseys that have modern restorations, like new numbers or lettering added. As you say, that makes the shirt 21st century.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by G1911

Had a great run. How was your cardio today?

I lifted today. I'll run tomorrow. I am getting lazy on the sit-ups, though.

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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

I am not a data scientist, but I know enough statistics to know they are very different disciplines.

This is of course, nonsense. They are nearly one and the same discipline. Every graduate-level data science program in the country requires numerous statistics courses. And many statistics programs offer two tracks - biostatistics or data science. The only difference is that a data scientist is a statistician with coding skills.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by G1911

This clown claiming he can detect heavy gamblers he has never met or interacted with or seen by his gut intuition with great accuracy is possibly the stupidest brag I have ever seen on this board.

Do you realize how stupid you look right now? Anyone who has spent decades of their life entrenched in the gambling world can easily identify the traits of a gambling addict. It's not a super power or a brag. It's no different from a bartender with 20 years of experience being able to identify an alcoholic.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is of course, nonsense. They are nearly one and the same discipline. Every graduate-level data science program in the country requires numerous statistics courses. And many statistics programs offer two tracks - biostatistics or data science. The only difference is that a data scientist is a statistician with coding skills.

Nearly is doing a lot of work right there. Constructing a polling question is not the same as writing an SQL script and the resulting data set differs in size from a large database by several orders of magnitude. As has been pointed out upthread, your arguments here rest on repetition of your job title and not by laying out cogent and accessible arguments.

You might want to consider that, when faced with a group that universally disagrees with you, there are explanations other than that they obviously are unable to appreciate your brilliance.

But, this is getting pretty far afield from the intent of the thread and I have to pack for an early flight to attend a business conference. So, I will concede to you the point the one thing you seem to covet: the last word.

[Jeremy102175]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Thanks for the thoughtful reply and I see your point. To relate it to my collection, I sometimes bid on GU flannels that have vintage team number changes. This was commonplace back in the pre-1972 era. But I never bid on jerseys that have modern restorations, like new numbers or lettering added. As you say, that makes the shirt 21st century.

I really like that comparison to jerseys. What's interesting as well is that although I knew there were number changes on some vintage jerseys, I didn't realize it was commonplace pre- 1972. Those vintage jerseys' "imperfections" just taught me something about baseball I didn't know until you mentioned it, so to make 21st century alterations that are "corrections" is really a shame in my opinion.

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

I vote "All of the Above" is unethical, assuming we're referring to selling or trading the card to someone else without disclosure of the alteration (or "restoration," "improvement," "cleaning," "wiping," "sprucing," or whatever phrase you like).

As for the PSA question, someone suggested in the previous thread that the card is whatever the PSA label says it is. I strongly disagree, and I'll use Fritsch W512 prints as an example. Because PSA dabbles in incompetence, it has slabbed a number of obvious Fritsch prints as original W512 strip cards.



Getting a lazy PSA grader to put "1926 W512" on the label doesn't magically transform an ersatz Ruth into an original one. Let's say I knowingly submitted the above Fritsch print to PSA, and PSA slabbed it as a W512 Grade 1. If I sold it to someone without disclosing that it's really a Fritsch print, then I committed fraud.

Bless your shriveled black heart if you're willing to give me a pass in that scenario, but the reality is that you're a scumbag enabling another scumbag.

It's going to seem like a dumb thing to argue, but that actually does have all the value of a W512 Grade 1 Babe Ruth because of their guarantee. So the flip does define what's inside...even if outside the slab it would be defined differently. Counterfeits, alterations, anything the flip doesn't mention doesn't exist while it's in the slab, value-wise anyway. True story.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Do you realize how stupid you look right now? Anyone who has spent decades of their life entrenched in the gambling world can easily identify the traits of a gambling addict. It's not a super power or a brag. It's no different from a bartender with 20 years of experience being able to identify an alcoholic.

A bartender could not tell an alcoholic from the way he "carries himself" on TV.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A bartender could not tell an alcoholic from the way he "carries himself" on TV.

We don't know that for sure. If that bartender also has a grad degree in data science and has coding skills, he too might have the same super power that snowman has.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

We don't know that for sure. If that bartender also has a grad degree in data science and has coding skills, he too might have the same super power that snowman has.

Unless They have self proclaimed "Monk Like" abilities. Not in regard to celibacy, but sleuthing.

Its a jungle out there !

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Do you realize how stupid you look right now? Anyone who has spent decades of their life entrenched in the gambling world can easily identify the traits of a gambling addict. It's not a super power or a brag. It's no different from a bartender with 20 years of experience being able to identify an alcoholic.

A bartender cannot identify an alcoholic they have never even met and have no experience with. A gambler cannot tell a gambler they have never even met based on absolutely nothing but their immense ego.

Having experience in a category does not mean you can just magically discern people excessively into it based on absolutely nothing.

This is the stupidest garbage that has hit the main board in a long time. Your schtick would do a lot better if you cut off the top 20% of your vain bullshit that has nothing to do with reality.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

It's going to seem like a dumb thing to argue, but that actually does have all the value of a W512 Grade 1 Babe Ruth because of their guarantee. So the flip does define what's inside...even if outside the slab it would be defined differently. Counterfeits, alterations, anything the flip doesn't mention doesn't exist while it's in the slab, value-wise anyway. True story.

I'd argue that the flip still doesn't define what's inside. What you're describing isn't a "W512 Grade 1 Babe Ruth," it's a coupon for PSA reimbursement.

If you treat cards as nothing more than currency, then I suppose it's a distinction without a difference.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

Having experience in a category does not mean you can just magically discern people excessively into it based on absolutely nothing.

There is a certain amount, granted it is a very large amount, of disbelief one must suspend in engaging with Travis. I would hope this is just a game for him and not the way he actually conducts himself outside of here.

Originally Posted by G1911

This is the stupidest garbage that has hit the main board in a long time.

More accurately, this is the stupidest garbage that has hit the main board since his last time. This is not his first performance and it will not be his last.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

A bartender cannot identify an alcoholic they have never even met and have no experience with. A gambler cannot tell a gambler they have never even met based on absolutely nothing but their immense ego.

Having experience in a category does not mean you can just magically discern people excessively into it based on absolutely nothing.

This is the stupidest garbage that has hit the main board in a long time. Your schtick would do a lot better if you cut off the top 20% of your vain bullshit that has nothing to do with reality.

No no you don't get it, it's based on how Shohei "carries himself."

[Lorewalker]

Sadly we will have to wait until after midnight PST for Travis to add to this thread. Speaking for myself...I simply cannot wait. He told me in a PM (in between numerous f bombs) that he refuses to interact with me here.

This has not dashed my hopes that we might be able to chat on the phone or hang out for coffee.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No no you don't get it, it's based on how Shohei "carries himself."

Very true. As a mere mortal who cannot assign myself the power of God to decisively judge the internal sins of rando's I don't know even know, I don't really understand quite how it all works for data scientists.

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Sadly we will have to wait until after midnight PST for Travis to add to this thread. Speaking for myself...I simply cannot wait. He told me in a PM (in between numerous f bombs) that he refuses to interact with me here.

This has not dashed my hopes that we might be able to chat on the phone or hang out for coffee.

The good news is that, as he has experience drinking beverages, he can tell based on how you carry yourself exactly how you take your coffee and if you like decaf, sugar, cream or other features. Could start a very successful business here with this skill. Wouldn't it be convenient to not have to input your order into an app or to give it at the counter, if they could simply just know your interests and proclivities and tastes and bring you what you wanted?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

The good news is that, as he has experience drinking beverages, he can tell based on how you carry yourself exactly how you take your coffee and if you like decaf, sugar, cream or other features. Could start a very successful business here with this skill. Wouldn't it be convenient to not have to input your order into an app or to give it at the counter, if they could simply just know your interests and proclivities and tastes and bring you what you wanted?

AI Snowman?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

Nearly is doing a lot of work right there. Constructing a polling question is not the same as writing an SQL script and the resulting data set differs in size from a large database by several orders of magnitude. As has been pointed out upthread, your arguments here rest on repetition of your job title and not by laying out cogent and accessible arguments.

You might want to consider that, when faced with a group that universally disagrees with you, there are explanations other than that they obviously are unable to appreciate your brilliance.

But, this is getting pretty far afield from the intent of the thread and I have to pack for an early flight to attend a business conference. So, I will concede to you the point the one thing you seem to covet: the last word.

Well, what can I say? You sure got me there. I was just kidding all along. I'm talking out my ass. I fold. Nice hand, sir.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Unless They have self proclaimed "Monk Like" abilities. Not in regard to celibacy, but sleuthing.

Its a jungle out there !

On behalf of everyone, I thank you for that reference.
I frickin' loved that show!!

[Snowman]

You guys are hilarious. Keep up the great work!

[raulus]

I mean, Snowman seems like a nice enough guy. Probably a little too defensive of card doctors. Probably a little too defensive of PWCC. But aside from quibbling about those details, I'm not sure why the need to get after him in this fashion.

I will admit...

He's often excessively confident.

He doesn't hesitate to share his opinion.

He often speaks in what seems like hyperbole.

He sometimes doesn't fully explain his ideas, or what he means.

He holds himself out as an expert in all things.

He's a snob about centering.

But at the same time, that probably sounds like a lot of us. Certainly it sounds a lot like me, aside from the centering thing - that's never been all that important to me.

His assertion about gamblers was just that. And a lot of us disagree with him, and have shared why his assertion sure seems faulty. I suspect that he's probably right that many degenerate gamblers are easy to spot, even from a distance. But as many of you have rightly pointed out, not everyone fits the criteria, plus unless we're hanging out with them personally, we don't have much of a nexus for attempting to really conclude.

Personally, as a Giants fan full of schadenfreude for the hated ones, I would like nothing more than to see Ohtani suspended for life (with pay, of course).

But now that you've made those points, I'm not sure why there's a need to linger any longer over the dead horse, just to kick it a bit more.

It's just a matter of time before someone posts a video like this:

[Lorewalker]

I disagree with almost 100% of what snowman posts but he is far from an enemy of the hobby even with his stance on doctoring or cozy feelings towards Brent/PWCC. I am not 100% sure he has been 100% transparent with the extent of either of those positions but that aside, my rub is that he always posts an an authority on absolutely every topic and with extreme arrogance.

Fact is that he is not an authority on almost every topic he posts on and the things he posts are very absurd and filled with flawed logic. What he is, is a person just like the rest of us, who has an opinion. And even if you have a strong opinion, make sure you that it is conveyed as just that and if you are unwilling, as he is, to admit you are wrong, then it leaves most people being annoyed.

And despite what it may appear, I like having him here. Not because I goof on him but I like that he brings a different perspective or point of view to the discussion. Just as I have not taken his GFY personally I hope I have not conveyed disdain or disrespect to him in my posts to him and about him. I figured him for a guy who has to have VERY thick skin but again I do not have the same super powers that he has based on how he carries himself so I could be wrong. But ya almost have to have thick skin if you are gonna go out on a limb as far and as often as he does.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by raulus

Snowman seems like a nice enough guy. TRUE

Probably a little too defensive of card doctors. TRUE

Probably a little too defensive of PWCC. FALSE

He's often excessively confident. TRUE

He doesn't hesitate to share his opinion. TRUE

He often speaks in what seems like hyperbole. TRUE

He sometimes doesn't fully explain his ideas, or what he means. TRUE

He holds himself out as an expert in all things. FALSE

He's a snob about centering. TRUE

His assertion about gamblers was just that. TRUE

I suspect that he's probably right that many degenerate gamblers are easy to spot, even from a distance. FALSE

I'll cosign on most of that.

A point of clarity on the last one. It is much easier to rule out a disorder than it is to diagnose one. I don't think you can just look at some random person and tell if they're a degenerate gambler. But I think you can observe someone and rule out that possibility with near certainty based on how they conduct themselves. It is a mental disorder. It's even listed in the DSM-V. The traits of someone with this disease are difficult to hide. It consumes them.