Moral Quandary

[slidekellyslide]

I have been contacted by someone who evidently googled something and found that I own something in my collection that is of interest to a family member. Now this something is not something that is easy to come by, and in fact I may never find anything like this again.

What would you do?

[oriolesbb6]

How did you acquire the item? Were they an under-bidder at an auction or the like>?

[perezfan]

I would say that more specifics are necessary to answer the question effectively. If the item is something that makes more sense to be in their possession than yours (for example a one-of-a-kind item with deep emotional ties to the family), I would consider forfeiting it.

That is, assuming they compensate you fairly- at market value or better. If you are willing/able to part with it, I would tell them the price you need to get for it, and give them the option. I guess there's no traditional market value on Ty Cobb's Dentures (remember that one?) but you know what you originally paid (and what the item is worth). Of course, if the item carries a low monitary value (or you acquired it cheap), it might be nice just to give it to them as a gift.

It would really help to know more specifics, and what the item in question actually is. This is just my personal opinion, and there's probably no "right or wrong" here. It depends on your values and judgement of the specific situation.

[rhettyeakley]

Dan, through my website I have been contacted by many people who are direct decendants of players found on cards (usually Zeenuts) or other items. Generally the stuff in my personal collection is not for sale (I am pretty upfront about this right off the bat), however, I always make an attempt to find another example for them (when possible) and will also offer to take high quality scans which they are free to take to a photographer or printing place and make something that would be displayable for them.

In several instances I have kept an eye open for another example that I have sold them (at cost), it's one of the more rewarding things I have encountered through my website.
-Rhett

[slidekellyslide]

The item in question is a Louisville Slugger gamer of a minor leaguer who played for Lincoln pre WW2...I doubt another bat for this player is extant, and it is also the only prewar bat I know of that can be tied to a Lincoln player. I obtained it from a direct sale and not an auction.

[oriolesbb6]

This happens regularly during estate auction. In this case, I would be honest one way or the other-If your item is not for sale kindly state that fact and move one being comfortable in your decision. If you can part with state a fair price and again do not regret your sale.

[HRBAKER]

Absolutely, their only claim to the item is emotional. You are the owner and a good steward. If you don't think it can be replaced and don't want to get rid of it I see no moral quandry at all.

[barrysloate]

Dan- you have absolutely no obligation whatsoever to sell it. The family didn't stumble onto a "for sale" website, but instead your personal collection. I'm sure you've already explained to them the bat is not replaceable.

The only suggestion I have is maybe the next time an item comes up in an auction worth equal to or slightly more than your piece, you can contact the family and tell them if they can win that item for you, you would be willing to swap the bat for it. But that is entirely optional. Again, I see no moral quandary at all. The family may be disappointed, but such is life.

[batsballsbases]

Dan,
Its a very hard question to answer. I myself have had this happen twice. The first item is still in my collection and would be very hard to part with. The second was in my collection and I had decided to auction it off. I ended up buying it back and after having it for about 3 months I was contacted by someone on this board asking me what had happened to the item. I told him that I re acquired it and was just planning to hold on to it. He then told me a very touching story of why he wanted the item ,it touched me so deeply that I ended up selling it to him. I guess the best way to handle it is to go with what you are comfortable with. Bottom line its your item to do what you wish with .

[vintagesportscollector]

Dan - I agree with all who have said you have absolutely no moral obligation. You should feel comfortable with whatever you decide.

In the Spring of 2006 I was contacted by the granddaughter of Elden Aucker (Detroit submarine pitcher). I had a scrap book that I got off ebay for very little that chronicled in detail the 1934 and 1935 seasons, including both back-to-back World Series those years in which Aucker pitched. The scrapbook was full of content covering Aucker. His granddaughter explained she saw some images of the scrapbook on my site and was incquiring about it. After hearing what the book contained she went on to explain that her grandfather was very ill and would very much appreciate having that history to relive. Since I paid very little and had no attachment to the scrapbook (didn’t have any special interest to Detroit or Aucker) I gave it to her to give to her grandfather. It turned out Aucker died 3 months later. I wonder if he ever saw it…or if that was even his granddaughter.

Now Dan, don’t feel like that story should persuade anything, because if the item had significant value that couldn’t be compensated for, and/or I felt a strong attachment to it and felt it couldn’t be replaced – I wouldn’t part with it for anyone, I don’t care who their grandfather was and if he was dying or not.

[FUBAR]

In my opinion, you are not obligated to give/sell it to them.

However, if you dont have any real connection to it, you should consider a trade or a sale. I do not know what the monetary value would be, but my personal opinion on collecting, is it should be done from the heart and not from the pocketbook, even though the pocketbook is what dictates our purchases. Maybe you could turn it into something that would have more meaning to you. If you do sell it or trade it or whatever, get a caveat stating you get first option to buy for the exact same price they paid you.

From what i have been told, Don Drysdale was my uncle, i have no proof, nor any connection to him, except the same last name. If you had anything of his, i wouldnt feel like you owed it to me in any way shape or form.

[Robbie]

I am new to net54, so you probably do not recognize my postings yet. But I have been collecting for 30+ years. This may be a crazy idea, but is there any way to "rent" the item to them for a fixed duration of time...say 2 years and then the item comes back to you. They could give you a substantial deposit for security. That way thaey get to enjoy it for a while and you know it will come back to your collection.

Robbie >>

[Wite3]

Does Louisville Slugger still do custom jobs...let the family have pics of the bat and let them do a reproduction of your original. Maybe take some very nice pics for them and have them framed for them. Just some ideas...

Joshua

[drc]

I don't think it's a moral question.

[Leon]

As you know I have some inside scoop on this situation. That being said I don't think you are morally obligated to do anything at all. It's is yours and only you can decide if you want it more than they are willing to pay for it. I don't think they will go long and deep on value but I don't know for sure. Heck, I have no idea, at all, of the value of the bat.

For me...and this is only me. If I am not attached to something I usually try to work something out in order to get the item to someone that it would be so dear to. At some point it comes down to what you do in life and what kind of person you are. Please don't take this the wrong way. Even if you keep it I wouldn't think any less of you one tiny bit. At the same time I would very much respect and applaud you if you do make it available, IF IT'S not so dear to you. If it is so dear to you then by all means I would keep it. I also like the idea of loaning/renting it as that might be an option. I know you are a good guy so have full trust you will make the right decision for yourself. I think we would all be interested in what you do when you make that decision. Let me restate one thing....if it is really dear and important to you then I see no reason not to keep it in your collection. There are certain cards I would probably keep regardless of the situation. take care

[canjond]

Dan - one other suggestion... Not sure of your own family situation, but upon your passing, you could bequeath the bat back to the family. Assuming the value isn't such that it is a cornerstone of your collection, you could enjoy the bat now, and the family can also know that someday they will have the bat.

[sayhey24]

I'm going to disagree with most of the posters so far (although I just read that Leon is doing the same).
Whenever faced with a tough decision, I ask myself what would I teach my young children to do in a similar situation. In this case, the decision suddenly becomes easy. The bat has meaning, perhaps even deep meaning, to the collector, but has an even more powerful emotional tie to the family. The collector will in the long run be far richer (and I don't mean financially) by seeing to it that the bat gets to the family.
Here's one more criteria you can use -- something I picked up from one of my favorite authors years ago and has served me well over the years. Whenever faced with a tough decision, invariably the tougher choice is the right choice.
In this case the easiest thing to do would be to keep the bat and forget about it -- the tougher choice for the collector is giving up the bat, but it's the right choice.

Greg

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by sayhey24

I'm going to disagree with most of the posters so far (although I just read that Leon is doing the same).
Whenever faced with a tough decision, I ask myself what would I teach my young children to do in a similar situation. In this case, the decision suddenly becomes easy. The bat has meaning, perhaps even deep meaning, to the collector, but has an even more powerful emotional tie to the family. The collector will in the long run be far richer (and I don't mean financially) by seeing to it that the bat gets to the family.
Here's one more criteria you can use -- something I picked up from one of my favorite authors years ago and has served me well over the years. Whenever faced with a tough decision, invariably the tougher choice is the right choice.
In this case the easiest thing to do would be to keep the bat and forget about it -- the tougher choice for the collector is giving up the bat, but it's the right choice.

Greg

I am more inclined to think along these lines as well. I know if my dad played minor league ball and he didnt have any saved items from that time in his life and a bat from his playing days showed up on the internet, I would do all I can to obtain that item. I am sure the emotional attachment to that bat is far greater to the family than it is to the collector. I totally understand how a collector would want to keep this item in their collection but if it was me, I would make the bat available to the family provided they could show me evidence that the bat is indeed once used by their family member.

As to Leons post about not feeling bad for not making this item available to the family, I fully agree since the bat is yours and you can do what you will with it....but if its me the family would be owning it for the cost I paid for it!!

[barrysloate]

Sayhey- I'm going to disagree. Giving up the bat is a noble choice, and a nice gesture. But Dan has no obligation to do so, and is no worse a person for deciding to keep it.

I'm going to tell a story without naming names, but for many it will be obvious who I am talking about. A very prominent collector amassed a world class collection partly by endearing himself to the widows and families of deceased ballplayers. He always told them that he would cherish all the keepsakes that they ultimately gave him for free, and that he hoped to one day build a museum to preserve them forever.

When many years later he sold his collection and kept all the proceeds, I heard that many of these families were quite upset. The point of the story is you don't know what the family will do with Dan's bat. Today it is something they would love to own. Five years from now they might decide they want to sell it. So why should Dan feel obligated to offer it to complete strangers? He might say to them if I ever decide to sell it I will contact you first, and that would certainly be the proper thing to do. But I am suspicious by nature, and wouldn't automatically assume that parting with the bat is the noble gesture. It's his bat to do as he thinks best.

I'm editing this to add I know my example isn't exactly comparable to Dan's, it's just that once you part with the bat you have absolutely no idea what will become of it. Maybe the family will be offered a great sum for it and decide to sell it themselves. You don't know, and it happens all the time.

[Kawika]

Cut up the bat for relic cards. Everyone's a winner!
Nah, nah, jus' kiddin'.
It's a tough quandary alright, moral or otherwise. You've gotten good advice across the spectrum already. What I would do falls somewhere in there. We're not taking a vote here so I won't weigh in with my two cents. Sleep on it a day or two and the right answer will manifest itself.
(Was just about to press "Submit Reply" and saw Barry's post. He made a good point. Nobility can turn around and kick you in the derriere. Have you considered relic cards?)

[sayhey24]

Barry --

I totally agree that Dan is not obligated to sell the bat. All he is obligated to do is make a choice. Since he asked, I offered my opinion on the decision making process, and what I would do in this situation. I only know Dan through a few things I've bought from him, but he's always struck me as one of the nicest guys on here. I think he's been offered a lot of thoughtful advice here, and my opinion of him will remain the same regardless of what he decides to do with the bat.

Greg

[barrysloate]

That's fair Greg, and the one thing we don't know is just how important the piece is to Dan. We all have favorites, and is this a can't-live-without-it piece, or simply a nice piece in his collection? He did say he couldn't replace it, so I guess to him it is pretty high up there.

Every Sunday the New York Times Magazine section has a column written by Randy Cohen called The Ethicist. People write him letters dealing with these kinds of ethical dilemmas, and he explains what he feels is the right thing to do. I bet he would have an opinion here, as we do.

[slidekellyslide]

In the general sense I believe historical artifacts like this "belong" to the family and thus it may not really be a "moral quandary", but in my head it is. I have offered it to them at my cost...I kinda hope that it is more than they want to pay. If not I'll let it go.

About 5 or 6 years ago when the Matty McIntyre photos got removed from the album and sold as single photos a few of them were sold as "unknowns" and I picked them up knowing that I could eventually identify them....one of them I thought looked strikingly like Sam Thompson, I posted my thoughts about the photo on the old Net54 site and Joe G emailed me to tell me that he knows the family of Big Sam and that I should contact them to see if they think it is him...well I did and I forged a friendship with Keith Thompson (Sam's great-nephew) who told me that it was indeed Big Sam and that photos of him were very rare...He wanted to purchase it, but I didn't want to sell it...he never once pressured me and I made a really nice copy and sent it to him...well for a couple of years whenever I looked at it, it kind of ate away at me so finally I just contacted him and asked him if he wanted to purchase it for my cost and he did...it did make me feel better. I know that every time I look at the bat I will get this same feeling.

[Leon]

Dan- You are a good man. Not that we are alike but I would have done the exact same thing. At the end of the day, and when any of us are on our last leg, it won't be about what we "have", but about what we have "done." I truly feel this way. I did mean it though when I said I wouldn't feel any differently about you regardless....but your actions make me know that I had my thinking of you in the right place. I am sure you will never regret the decision or offer you made. I know I wouldn't. take care

ps...it was ironic that he found that post about the bat from the old Network54 board and emailed me that way. He and I even spoke on the phone and I told him you would be easy to get a hold of. I said I thought I could help in that matter . Since he is with a Sheriff's dept I thought it might have something to do with something legal, but alas it was personal .

[drc]

If it was a purple heart of love letters to his wife, I would say the family might have special rights. But, in the scheme of things, it's just a baseball bat.

Realize, fathers will their stamp or or rare book collection to a neighbor's son because he knows the kid appreciated and would enjoy the collection more than his kids would. Upon retirement, a man may give his high end brief case to a co worker. So there's no automatic familial moral right to everything someone had. The player may have never owned the bat, or gave it to his teammate or even a fan-- it was never intended for family. If he gave it to the family and the family wanted it, then why don't they still have it?

If I met a old co-worker of my dad, and he showed me a fancy paperweight of my dad's and that my dad gave to him, I would be beyond rude to say "He was my dad. Give it to me." In reality, I would be impressed this guy still had and and used the paperweight and would count him as the rightful owner. I may be my dad's only son, but that doesn't mean I have moral rights to everything that was ever in his office. In fact, the stuff he gave to co-workers I clearly would not have claims to.

In short, I wouldn't buy an argument that anything and everything that ever belonged to a ball player belongs to the family, legally or morally. If you want me to pick the moral owner of that paper weight, I would pick the co-worker.

In fact, if the player knew what an avid collector and historian of Nebraska baseball you are, there would be very good chance that he would give the bat to you. Would he be glad to learn that a Nebraska superfan owns his bat in the 21st century? I would assume so.

[steve B]

Editing to say that while I was typing , making lunch and thinking , things seem to have already been sorted out. Sometimes I'm just slow

I think there's also a bit more information needed which Dan probably has or can get.
Like - What was their overall approach? There's a big difference between "we'd really love it. Might it be available" and "a relative used it give it to us"

For me another thing would possibly be their interest/understanding of the items place in the overall history of things. From the little description, I'd say it's a pretty important piece of local baseball history. Some people care about that, some just don't get it. or even care to get it.

And it's not just people but institutions that can be that way. I have some items from a top tier bike racer from 1895. When I bought it, I had the underbidder asking me to donate it to a local museum that was opening. Once they'd opened, I visited to see what the place was like. Nice people, who hadn't much of an idea about most of the items they had. And absolutely no idea who the rider was or anything he'd accomplished. Plus a fair portion of the items they had were funny in a somewhat sad way. Triangular rocks displayed as arrowheads, and a "replica" of a bleriot plane made of 2x4s and a lawnmower motor. I'll get them scans and copies eventually, but the originals are staying with me for the forseeable future.

Steve

[ChiefBenderForever]

I would try to get to know them a little bit and find more out. Do they live near you ? They could be huge Husker fans and have premo season tickets !! I see you offered it to them at what you paid, that was very nice, looking forward to hear how it pans out.

[Leon]

The requestor was very nice and very unassuming on the phone. I am sure that is the way he was with Dan also. It would mean a great deal to their family if he got it. I didn't get the whole story but I think it had to do with this gentleman's great grandfather or grandfather. Maybe the bat was the great grandfathers and this gentleman was trying to acquire it for his dad. Maybe Dan'o can fill us in but I know it was an immediate family type of heirloom. (at least that is what I think I recall). Bottom line is the gentleman was very nice on the phone. best regards

[barrysloate]

If Dan is prepared to part with the bat I agree it is a very nice gesture, and I applaud him. But I still feel he has no obligation. He should only do it if it makes him happy.

[perezfan]

In reading the very evenly divided responses, it really struck me that there are valid arguments for both sides. Since there is no "right or wrong", you just have to be guided by your heart (more so than by your head).

In reading his post, I believe that's exactly what Dan did, and I really applaud his decision. Either way would have been ok, but sometimes enjoyment of this great hobby goes beyond the number of items you are able to obtain.

[Mark]

I'm surprised that there is only one prewar Lincoln bat in existence. Didn't any other ex Lincoln players make it into the high minors or majors? Given the large number of prewar bats in existence, isn't it possible that there is one more ex Lincoln bat out there? Just tell me who to look for.

[slidekellyslide]

Well, I got an email today from the party who bought my bat...it was a police officer who wanted to give it to his partner at his retirement party. Evidently this guy talked a lot about his grandfather who played in the minors. He told me it "took his breath away" when he saw the bat. Hidden away for years in the Louisville Slugger vault, making its way through at least two collectors it's finally at home.

[base_ball]

That pic is best dénouement to a thread ever! Fabulous and wonderful and more than that.

[Jantz]

You did the right thing by passing the bat along and you should be commended.

I can't imagine the feeling the guy got when he saw his grandfather's bat.

Classy move on your part Dan.


Jantz

[cubsguy1969]

I got goosebumps when I read that. Congrats on doing a wonderful thing.
Rob

[D. Broughman]

Great story Dan! Class act on everyones part.

[Mikehealer]

I just read this thread for the first time today, nice story. Nice going Dan.

[Leon]

I got goose bumps too, hearing of this very warm situation.

You are a good man, Dan. Karma is definitely on your side. I actually think quite a few on this board would have done the same thing. It's a very, very nice gesture on your behalf. Something good will happen to you because of it.

[Jim VB]

Very nice Dan! As Carl Spackler would say:

"...there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness."

[barrysloate]

I admit I was skeptical when Dan first posted this and told him he had no obligation to part with it. Now I know he did the right thing.

[ethicsprof]

very moving, Dan.
the way you articulate this at the end is the most moving of all.
you are a good man, ole friend.

best,

barry

[Robbie]

Dan...

That was a very special thing you did. It must be gratifying to know that your generousity touched that man's life in a way he will never forget.

I, personally want to thank you for reminding me of the goodness there is within the collecting community. So many posts here are so negative that an outsider reading them would have serious doubts as to our capacity to act with compassion and integrity. This is the thread I would want them to read.

[Bridwell]

Good going, Dan! Congrats.

Karma is a strange thing. Don't be surprised when something good happens to you this year!

Ron

[Abravefan11]

For all that's wrong with this hobby I still hope there is more good than bad.

Thanks Dan for keeping my hope alive.

[3and2]

Great story! How wonderful for that guy to hold that bat.

[canjond]

Dan - A applaud you

[Exhibitman]

As an attorney I would have little choice but to extract the maximum I could from the would-be buyer or else risk being disbarred.

I'm kidding...really.