T206 Ames, Larry Doyle & Schulte Mystery ?

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Last call on these 3 "mysterious" T206 cards.....mysterious because they have been always identified as 150/350 series cards.
Yet, recently with Scot Reader's excellent book on the T206 set; and, Bill Brown's Super Set spread-sheet, we have not seen
a "350" example of any of these 3 cards. Over 1000 samples of these 3 cards have been scanned in the past two years.




Ames (hands at chest)

Larry Doyle (throwing)

Schulte (bat)


We would like to resolve this mystery by asking you, one more once, to check out your T206 collections and post here if you
have either a....PIEDMONT 350....SWEET CAPORAL 350....SOVEREIGN 350....back on any of these 3 cards ?

As important, if you have any of these with an....EL PRINCIPE DE GALES....back ? As this will signify that indeed a "350" back
does exist on that card (irregardless of the fact that we have not yet seen one). This works everytime

Thanks very much for your participation in the continuing research into trying to "tame" the T206 "Monster".


TED

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hey Ted,
I doubt we will find any of these cards with 350 backs, but I guess anything is possible. I know for a fact that I have been looking for Schulte in a 350 for over 15 years and have never seen one.... I will always be looking. Be well my friend. Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I haven't been looking for these backs as long as you have, but I've certainly checked out about a 1000
of these 3 subjects in the past several years....and, I haven't see any 350's amongst them......so far.

Thanks for your input, always appreciate it.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Speaking about "MYSTERIES".....how about these guys ?

Anyone here have any inputs or words of wisdom regarding how these three Subjects were ever classified
as 150/350 cards ?

If we don't come up with some 350 backs on these soon, we will be breaking new ground by assigning them
to that exclusive "club" of the 150-only T206's.

T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,

Bill Heitman did groundbreaking work but he understandably missed a few things. In addition to (probably) miscategorizing Ames, Doyle, Schulte as 150/350s, Heitman's The Monster improperly designated a half-dozen or so 350-only and 460-only subjects (which I recount in my manuscript) as 350/460s.

I think Heitman's The Monster and Lipset's Encyclopedia, whose checklist largely if not entirely mimics that in The Monster, are the main sources of the long-standing misperception about Ames, Doyle and Schulte.

Scot

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I'm sure you are correct, and the advantage we have now with the new technology (Internet) allows
us to reassign about 10 of the Subjects from the original work by Heitman and Lipset back in the '70s.

So, if we add these three subjects (Ames, L. Doyle and Schulte) to the "150-only" group......we have
that "magic factor" of 12.....that seems to be a common denominator regarding T206's.

At the Reading Show this weekend, Fri and Sat were busy for me.....Sunday was quiet, so I made the
rounds and checked out 100's of T206's.
I found....10 - Ames's....4 - Doyle's....8 - Schulte's. All 22 of these cards had 150-type backs. Only a
small sample, nevertheless, added to our much larger sample further reinforces our thoughts on these
three cards. Anyhow, the search will still continue.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I found my record-keeping on these three T206 guys....I added the recent data and here are the numbers:


.................P 150........SC 150.......Sv 150.....Hindu......350........EPDG

Ames...........255............188............4.... ........4...........0............0

Doyle...........166..............82...........1... .........1............0............0

Schulte.........201...........131............2.... ........0............0............0


Totals...........622...........401............7... ........5............0.............0


TED Z


GO ROCKIES......

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,

That's a pretty good sample. Considering there are probably slighly fewer than 3,000 of each of these subjects in existence, and assuming no double-counting, you have seen more than 10%!


Scot

Edited to correct my flawed math in the original post.

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Very helpful research, Ted and Scot.
I took good notes on this one!
Your monograph continues to be of critical importance, Scot.
many thanks,
barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

This data was gathered during a 2 1/2 year period....and, I was very diligent to avoid any multiple counting
of any of these cards.
Should an extremely scarce Piedmont 350 back appear on any of these, perhaps then we could associate
that card as being a possible "cousin" of the Joe Doyle error card.

The likelihood of a P 350 (or any other 350 back) appears very improbable: as, we would have seen an EPDG
by now on any one of these three Subjects.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
I have Hindu's of Ames and Doyle, but not Schulte. Be well Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

If you don't have a Schulte with a Brown HINDU....then we can assume it doesn't exist.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

One more chance for Net54ers to respond that might have 350 backs or EPDG backs on these three T206 cards......

Ames (hands at chest)

Larry Doyle (Throwing)

Schulte (front/bat)

Thanks for taking the time to check out your T206's.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

Mine are:

Ames - P150
Doyle - P150
Schulte - SC150


JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: Lee Behrens

Hi Ted,

Bill's super set has no known examples of 350's or EPDGs for those 3 cards.

The Schulte Hindu back is an interesting omission.

I still could have swore that I had a trimmed Schulte Pied 350 at one time but have no scan of the back of the card, at the time it was no big deal so why bother maybe one day I can turn up who I sold the card to and find out if I was right.

Lee

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

If you could track down that Schulte card with the 350 (I assume PIEDMONT) back, it would be greatly appreciated.
As indicated in my table, 334 examples of Schulte, and no 350 backs. And, Scot Reader surveys support my findings
on all three of these T206 Subjects.

Lee, thanks for posting your Thread...."A Trend ? Or....."; it had to said and I'm glad you brought up this subject for
discussion.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
Our buddy Joe P is certain that he has a Schulte front view with a Piedmont 350 back, but he hasn't hooked up his scanner yet. I may have to talk him through it on the phone to get the scan, but it would be well worth the exercise. I've always felt Schulte was a 150 only card, but if Joe P is right and Lee's not mistaken than he may be another one of our "short printed 350's"... I'm still amazed that we have never found a Schulte with a Hindu back, as all of the other 150 only or short printed 350's except one(lundgren) have. I will keep searching for Lundgren and Schulte with hindu backs, but I doubt I will find them. Be well Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Until I see a Schulte with a Piedmont 350 back in person, I will be skeptical of any reported one.
Joe P and I go way back to the early 1980's when I helped him with his Bowman BB & FB sets.
And, he would visit me at the old Willow Grove Show and in recent years at the Ft Washington
Show. All he has to do is make the trip to the next Reading Show and bring his Schulte.

And, perhaps we will be friends again as we were until I got on Net54.

Best regards to you ole buddy,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Robert Adams Jr

Approx. 2 years ago I sold a Schulte Hindu on ebay . The winner emailed me back that he had it graded by PSA . Came back a 4 or 5 , cannot remember which . I hope this helps a little .

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

So that it is clear in my mind....you had a Schulte (front view) with a Brown HINDU back....is that correct ?

Well, that is the 1st confirmed one that we (Brian Weisner, Scot Reader and I) know of.

Thanks for this very important input.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike Gillette

Ted, I also have a Schulte Front view brown Hindu.

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
I checked my master list of known cards last night and I do have Schulte/Front with a Hindu back as a "known" card. I believe Robert is correct as his post jogged my memory and I think I do remember seeing the Schulte on Ebay. I initially remembered it being an EPDG back, but I must have been mistaken. Be well Brian

PS Hi Mike, Congrats on a nice card. I would love to see a scan when you have time. Of course if you ever want to trade or sell it please let me know.

Now, if we can get Joe P to scan a Piedmont 350....

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

So, can I add three HINDU backs for Schulte on my tabulation ?

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Robert Adams Jr

I have a scan of the Hindu Schulte downloaded on a floppy somewhere . If I can dig it up I'll post it .

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

ROBERT....BRIAN W....MIKE G.......Thanks for your inputs.

I added your three HINDU's to Schulte....also, I've updated this tabulation to account for new additional backs
on Ames, Doyle and Schulte.


.................P 150........SC 150.......Sv 150.....Hindu......350........EPDG

Ames...........259............189............4.... ........4...........0............0

Doyle...........167..............82...........1... .........1............0............0

Schulte.........202...........131............2.... ........3............0............0


Totals...........628...........402............7... ........8............0.............0


TED Z

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

I ran across this thread and thought it would be nice to see if there is any update there is to it.

Lee

[tedzan]

No change in the status regarding the Ames (h/c) and L. Doyle (throwing) cards. Since that survey was conducted,
no 350 series backs (PIEDMONT, SOVEREIGN, SWEET CAP, EPDG, etc.) have been found for these two subjects.

A single PIEDMONT 350 of Schulte (front view) has been found. This Schulte card joins the group of T206 subjects
that I refer to as the "Elite Eight".

They are........

Dahlen (Boston)
Ewing
Ganley
Tom Jones (St Louis)
Karger
Lindaman
Mullin (throwing)
Schulte (front view)


Regards,

TED Z

[shaunsteig]

Originally Posted by tedzan

No change in the status regarding the Ames (h/c) and L. Doyle (throwing) cards. Since that survey was conducted,
no 350 series backs (PIEDMONT, SOVEREIGN, SWEET CAP, EPDG, etc.) have been found for these two subjects.

A single PIEDMONT 350 of Schulte (front view) has been found. This Schulte card joins the group of T206 subjects
that I refer to as the "Elite Eight".

They are........

Dahlen (Boston)
Ewing
Ganley
Tom Jones (St Louis)
Karger
Lindaman
Mullin (throwing)
Schulte (front view)


Regards,

TED Z

This may be lazy of me, but can I ask for a reminder of what defines the "Elite Eight"?
Thanks,
--S

[tedzan]

1st......these eight 150/350 series T206's are found quite frequently with PIEDMONT 150, SWEET CAPORAL 150 (factory 25 & 30; and Ewing
& Jones with factory 649) backs. Less frequently, with the SOVEREIGN 150 back. And, rarely with the Brown HINDU back.

Dahlen (Boston)
Ewing
Ganley
Tom Jones (St Louis)
Karger
Lindaman
Mullin (throwing)
Schulte (front view) ...... no El PRINCIPE de GALES back has yet to be confirmed on this card

2nd......what sets them apart from the other T206's in the 150/350 series is that these 8 subjects were only printed with the PIEDMONT 350
or the El PRINCIPE de GALES backs (from the 350 series). And, these two backs are very, very rarely found on these 8 cards.

While most of the other 150/350 series cards are found with the above noted 150 series backs and the normal complement of 350 series backs.

Furthermore, the Carl Lundgren (Cubs) card is another very tough 150/350 series subject in that it was printed with only three backs.....The
PIEDMONT 150 version is the only 150 series back that Lundgren is found with. And, as with the Elite Eight, this Lundgren card is very, very
rarely found with the PIEDMONT 350 back or the El PRINCIPE de GALES back.


TED Z

[shaunsteig]

Thank you Ted for the explanation.
--S