Another T206 Wagner "? AUTHTCT"

[Edwolf1963]

Latest one ..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/t206-honus-w...AAAOSwWntXMm79


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...UAAOSwXj5XG5Iz

Shocking feedback on the last one .. (-1) now ..

case and card in photo does not match item. p***t ( 376Teal star icon for feedback score in between 100 to 499) During past month
Reply by chartso5 (May-03-16 16:25):
Horrible Buyer, Item was as described. Refunded as well. Inconsiderate.
1909-11 T206 BROADLEAF CIGARETTES HONUS WAGNER (#262402036388) US $82.07 View Item

[Joshwesley]

Gotta admit.... They did a good job with the slab.
Lol

[Pilot172000]

Ran the Cert # just for fun and it isn't even in the data base.

[swarmee]

It's probably not a fake PSA tag; it says Questionable Authenticity. I'm not sure they technically label anything fake.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I thought they didn't enter the cert numbers in their database on cards with questionable authenticity? The flip is absolutely real. And shame in PSA for even labelling it as questionable (as if there is a chance) authenticity.

[swarmee]

I wonder how much he had to pay ($700) to learn that there isn't a Broad Leaf Wagner...

[Edwolf1963]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I thought they didn't enter the cert numbers in their database on cards with questionable authenticity?

Hmmm, didn't know that. I looked up the flip # as well and it came back unknown, so thought something was amiss. If it's known there wasn't a T206 Wagner w/BroadLeaf back (or so I would gather from others feedback), why wouldn't PSA note it as a reprint/fake then? Instead of questionable authenticity.

[njdunkin1]

I saw this as well, at first I thought there was a chance. After a close look, though, you can easily see the extra bright color and signs of a reprint. Yikes!

[Pilot172000]

Finding a real Broadleaf Wagner would be like finding survivors from the Titanic on a life boat off the coast of Greenland..... Last Wednesday

[53Browns]

I have implicit trust in his "zero" feedback.

[nat]

Who is it, exactly, that buys this junk? Is there actually someone who thinks that they can scoop up a T206 Wagner for $34 on eBay? And if the people bidding on this do think it's real, why on Earth did 23 of them get topped by a $34 bid? And if they know it's fake, why did they bid at all?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by nat

Who is it, exactly, that buys this junk? Is there actually someone who thinks that they can scoop up a T206 Wagner for $34 on eBay? And if the people bidding on this do think it's real, why on Earth did 23 of them get topped by a $34 bid? And if they know it's fake, why did they bid at all?

Again, PSA has to share some of the blame too. The word questionable leaves room for hope. It should not be labeled as questionable authenticity.

This scam has actually been discussed here before. Submitter sends fake cards to PSA knowing they will come back as questionable authenticity. Then, lists them on eBay with a pic of the flip hoping to reel in a sucker with the hopes that it might be real.

[iowadoc77]

Easy to see why people fall for this.
Unfortunate
But easy

[MetsBaseball1973]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Again, PSA has to share some of the blame too. The word questionable leaves room for hope. It should not be labeled as questionable authenticity.

Dude, you are really stretching it to try and throw shade at PSA for this. If someone sees the leading TPG flat out refused to grade something and called it "Questionable Authenticity," and still that someone wants to buy said thing, thinking it's real, that is squarely and solely on them and their idiocy.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by MetsBaseball1973

Dude, you are really stretching it to try and throw shade at PSA for this. If someone sees the leading TPG flat out refused to grade something and called it "Questionable Authenticity," and still that someone wants to buy said thing, thinking it's real, that is squarely and solely on them and their idiocy.

I disagree. It is true that anyone buying a card like this is an idiot. But if the card is fake that is what the flip should say. Not questionable authenticity. PSA should realize how stupid people are and that some of them are falling for this scam.

[begsu1013]

psa's fault?

please.

1. it says ? authen.
2. it's not holdered.
3. the cert isn't verifiable.
4. just an opinion anyways.

if you need more than that, let me show you this oceanfront compound in arizona for a steal.

the post office says no such address found, it doesn't have a pin number, walls or even a roof....

but there is a sign in the yard that says "? ocean front" in the picture.

a fool and his money...

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

psa's fault?

please.

1. it says ? authen.
2. it's not holdered.
3. the cert isn't verifiable.
4. just an opinion anyways.

if you need more than that, let me show you this oceanfront compound in arizona for a steal.

the post office says no such address found, it doesn't have a pin number, walls or even a roof....

but there is a sign in the yard that says "? ocean front" in the picture.

a fool and his money...

It's not their fault, but in my opinion they could and should do something to stop it. If it's fake just say so. The question mark leaves a little doubt in the minds of people who don't know better. I agree these fools will probably end up wasting their money elsewhere but this is preventable.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Joshwesley

Gotta admit.... They did a good job with the slab.
Lol

Seriously this is scary shit right here. WHY is this still listed? And so much for the little hologram making things more safe.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Edwolf1963

Hmmm, didn't know that. I looked up the flip # as well and it came back unknown, so thought something was amiss. If it's known there wasn't a T206 Wagner w/BroadLeaf back (or so I would gather from others feedback), why wouldn't PSA note it as a reprint/fake then? Instead of questionable authenticity.

Good question I might add a note that nobody has touched base on yet. Not only is there no Broad Leaf Wagner.

The series the Wagner was printed didn't even print Broad Leaf!



These are it

Piedmont 150
Sweet Caporal 150/25
Sweet Caporal 150/30

[bnorth]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the listing. There is no BS story saying it could be real. It is a hell of a lot better than someone listing a card as ExMint or NrMint when the card is in a Authentic holder, to me that is trying to deceive someone.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the listing. There is no BS story saying it could be real. It is a hell of a lot better than someone listing a card as ExMint or NrMint when the card is in a Authentic holder, to me that is trying to deceive someone.

What part of the auction title "1909-11 T206 BROADLEAF CIGARETTES HONUS WAGNER" should be taken as not "saying it could be real?" The word "reprint" is not listed anywhere in the auction, but that's not a sketchy attempt to get people to think the card is real?

Edd*e Sm*th

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

What part of the auction title "1909-11 T206 BROADLEAF CIGARETTES HONUS WAGNER" should be taken as not "saying it could be real?" The word "reprint" is not listed anywhere in the auction, but that's not a sketchy attempt to get people to think the card is real?

Edd*e Sm*th

For me it is the clearly pictured PSA flip showing it is a reprint. ?authentic=reprint/counterfeit

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by MetsBaseball1973

Dude, you are really stretching it to try and throw shade at PSA for this. If someone sees the leading TPG flat out refused to grade something and called it "Questionable Authenticity," and still that someone wants to buy said thing, thinking it's real, that is squarely and solely on them and their idiocy.

What part of the authenticity do you think was questionable to PSA? Was it the card stock? The font? The ink? The fact that there's no way the Wagner could have been printed with a Broad Leaf back?

Or do you think they should have labeled it what it actually is (a reprint)?

The fact that they refuse to label it for what it is makes them somewhat responsible for this.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

What part of the authenticity do you think was questionable to PSA? Was it the card stock? The font? The ink? The fact that there's no way the Wagner could have been printed with a Broad Leaf back?

Or do you think they should have labeled it what it actually is (a reprint)?

The fact that they refuse to label it for what it is makes them somewhat responsible for this.

+1 that and the fact that the seller is going to more than likely get a pretty penny for this card.

[nat]

PSA could holder these things and label them "2016 Dover Reprints" or something.

On the other hand, maybe they just call them "questionable" out of an abundance of caution. Art authenticators get sued so often for determining that a work isn't original that some of them are shutting down. See http://fortune.com/2015/09/24/art-fakes-lawsuits

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I thought they didn't enter the cert numbers in their database on cards with questionable authenticity? The flip is absolutely real. And shame in PSA for even labelling it as questionable (as if there is a chance) authenticity.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by ZachS

More like one out of a million

[begsu1013]

the reason psa labels it "? authen" is due to liability.

had the flip said "complete fake", guy turns around, sells the thing for $1 to another collector, only to be resubmitted and have it turn out to be a million dollar card psa would be on the hook for some serious cash.

"? oceanfront" in arizona.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

the reason psa labels it "? authen" is due to liability.

had the flip said "complete fake", guy turns around, sells the thing for $1 to another collector, only to be resubmitted and have it turn out to be a million dollar card psa would be on the hook for some serious cash.

"? oceanfront" in arizona.

but that makes no sense as it's impossible for this wagner to be real. Does PSA not know this?

[begsu1013]

it makes perfect sense and saves them even more cents!

i am sure they know this, but am even more confident that they aren't gonna change their entire computer and logging system over the fact that someone submitted a card that isn't even fathomable.

your reply doesn't make any sense, personally.

edit: and it is possible for that wagner to be real...had it been submitted for what it was. a "2016 dover blah, blah, blah"
in this case it was submitted for something it's not, which is why it looks the way it does, it didn't get holdered and the flip states what it is...a card of questionable authenticity.

[begsu1013]

and furthermore, shame on you for making me defend psa!!!

i do not like this.

[Pilot172000]

It actually makes perfect sense. PSA makes its money authenticating real cards, not finding fake ones. Its much easier and with zero liability to say exactly what they put on the flip when they refuse to authenticate it. PSA has had to pay money to folks for authenticating fakes (it happens), but that is the cost of doing business. There is zero profit and a ton of liability in identifying fakes.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

had the flip said "complete fake", guy turns around, sells the thing for $1 to another collector, only to be resubmitted and have it turn out to be a million dollar card psa would be on the hook for some serious cash.

Bob, let's use your example and tweak it a little bit. Guy has a card and the flip says "altered". He sells it for $1 to another collector, only to be resubmitted and have it turn out to be a million dollar card. Would PSA still be on the hook for some serious cash because they mis-graded it the first time?

How can they state a fact (altered, trimmed, re-colored) on one aspect of the card, but only give an opinion (questionable authenticity) on another aspect of a card? It's either altered or it isn't. It's either authentic or it isn't. Authenticity is a black/white issue. There is no gray area.

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

There is zero profit and a ton of liability in identifying fakes.

Wrong! PSA still charges the SAME grading fee whether a card is deemed authentic with a numerical grade or it's rejected for questionable authenticity.

Questionable Authenticity is nothing more than an excuse for incompetency. If your next door neighbor brought you that card for your opinion, would you tell him that it's "questionable authenticity" or would you say, "It's a fake?"

Edited to add: This is from their website: "Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA) is the largest and most trusted third-party grading and authentication company in the world."

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Bob, let's use your example and tweak it a little bit. Guy has a card and the flip says "altered". He sells it for $1 to another collector, only to be resubmitted and have it turn out to be a million dollar card. Would PSA still be on the hook for some serious cash because they mis-graded it the first time?

How can they state a fact (altered, trimmed, re-colored) on one aspect of the card, but only give an opinion (questionable authenticity) on another aspect of a card? It's either altered or it isn't. It's either authentic or it isn't. Authenticity is a black/white issue. There is no gray area.



Wrong! PSA still charges the SAME grading fee whether a card is deemed authentic with a numerical grade or it's rejected for questionable authenticity.

Questionable Authenticity is nothing more than an excuse for incompetency. If your next door neighbor brought you that card for your opinion, would you tell him that it's "questionable authenticity" or would you say, "It's a fake?"

Edited to add: This is from their website: "Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA) is the largest and most trusted third-party grading and authentication company in the world."

yup...totally agree

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Bob, let's use your example and tweak it a little bit. Guy has a card and the flip says "altered". He sells it for $1 to another collector, only to be resubmitted and have it turn out to be a million dollar card. Would PSA still be on the hook for some serious cash because they mis-graded it the first time?

How can they state a fact (altered, trimmed, re-colored) on one aspect of the card, but only give an opinion (questionable authenticity) on another aspect of a card? It's either altered or it isn't. It's either authentic or it isn't. Authenticity is a black/white issue. There is no gray area.



Wrong! PSA still charges the SAME grading fee whether a card is deemed authentic with a numerical grade or it's rejected for questionable authenticity.

Questionable Authenticity is nothing more than an excuse for incompetency. If your next door neighbor brought you that card for your opinion, would you tell him that it's "questionable authenticity" or would you say, "It's a fake?"

Edited to add: This is from their website: "Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA) is the largest and most trusted third-party grading and authentication company in the world."

I disagree. They charge the fee for their time. They cannot, completely establish with out being there when the card was printed that its an absolute fake without risking the liability that it entails. Why risk it? Second, I don't charge for my opinion and I am not liable by law to give him an absolutely correct answer. PSA is and won't put the company in a bind when it doesn't have to

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

I disagree. They charge the fee for their time. They cannot, completely establish with out being there when the card was printed that its an absolute fake without risking the liability that it entails. Why risk it? Second, I don't charge for my opinion and I am not liable by law to give him an absolutely correct answer. PSA is and won't put the company in a bind when it doesn't have to

whatever!!!! if psa doesnt know that a t206 wagner only exists with sweet caporal or piedmont backs...and that a t206 wagner with a broad leaf back isn't fake...they're worthless!

[Pilot172000]

l

Originally Posted by ullmandds

whatever!!!! if psa doesnt know that a t206 wagner only exists with sweet caporal or piedmont backs...and that a t206 wagner with a broad leaf back isn't fake...they're worthless!

As a banker, when I decide against a loan, I never tell the client that there is zero chance anyone will give them a loan no matter how bad their situation is. I simply state that I won't give them the loan. PSA is simply stating that they will not authenticate that card. Whose to say some crack pot basement grading service won't authenticate it??

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

They cannot, completely establish with out being there when the card was printed that its an absolute fake without risking the liability that it entails.

Let's turn your statement around. If they cannot, completely establish with out being there when the card was printed, then how do they know when a card is authentic in order to assign it a numeric grade?

Do you not see how ridiculous your statement sounds?

Once again, from PSAs website, ""Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA) is the largest and most trusted third-party grading and authentication company in the world."

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

l

As a banker, when I decide against a loan, I never tell the client that there is zero chance anyone will give them a loan no matter how bad their situation is. I simply state that I won't give them the loan. PSA is simply stating that they will not authenticate that card. Whose to say some crack pot basement grading service won't authenticate it??

Well then I guess our perspectives are quite different!

When a patient is in my chair and they have some retained roots from a molar that broke decades ago and are concerned about saving the tooth...I have no qualms telling them there is ZERO chance the tooth can be saved. I am confident in my knowledge and abilities and I live in reality!

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

whatever!!!! if psa doesnt know that a t206 wagner only exists with sweet caporal or piedmont backs...and that a t206 wagner with a broad leaf back isn't fake...they're worthless!

C'mon Pete they can't even tell if a card is miscut or not and get it right.

[Pilot172000]

Actually it makes perfect sense. They base their company on the authentication of real products and accept all the liability that it entails.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Well then I guess our perspectives are quite different!

When a patient is in my chair and they have some retained roots from a molar that broke decades ago and are concerned about saving the tooth...I have no qualms telling them there is ZERO chance the tooth can be saved. I am confident in my knowledge and abilities and I live in reality!

You and I know that most card collectors don't live in reality! JK.

Do you have malpractice insurance? Of course!! Are you going to take a chance when you don't have too? Of course not!

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

You and I know that most card collectors don't live in reality! JK.

Do you have malpractice insurance? Of course!! Are you going to take a chance when you don't have too? Of course not!

Ok...But where is the iota of a chance this card could be real here?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

As a banker...?

Mr. Banker, if I were to walk into your bank with some bills you knew to be counterfeit and try and deposit them, would you tell me the bills are fake and confiscate them from me or would you tell me their authenticity is questionable and give them back to me?

Just curious?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Mr. Banker, if I were to walk into your bank with some bills you knew to be counterfeit and try and deposit them, would you tell me the bills are fake and confiscate them from me or would you tell me their authenticity is questionable and give them back to me?

Just curious?

good example!

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Ok...But where is the iota of a chance this card could be real here?

Not a chance.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

Not a chance.

ok...so where is the risk to precious PSA.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Mr. Banker, if I were to walk into your bank with some bills you knew to be counterfeit and try and deposit them, would you tell me the bills are fake and confiscate them from me or would you tell me their authenticity is questionable and give them back to me?

Just curious?

You are now comparing apples and oranges. Making fake bills is a Federal Felony and punishable by law. I am obligated to the FDIC to confiscate them. Making fake cards is not a felony and no matter how unethical, there is no obligation to confiscate or call the police.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

ok...so where is the risk to precious PSA.

Its blanket risk and more than likely a blanket policy for PSA when it comes to fake cards. You are assuming that all cards they refuse to authenticate are this cut and dry. For those of us dedicated enough to post online day in and day out about cardboard photographs of dead people we never actually met, its very obvious that these cards are fake. There must be some kind of market for them, since 90% of what you see when you type Broadleaf into the search box on ebay is fake.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

Its blanket risk and more than likely a blanket policy for PSA when it comes to fake cards. You are assuming that all cards they refuse to authenticate are this cut and dry. For those of us dedicated enough to post online day in and day out about cardboard photographs of dead people we never actually met, its very obvious that these cards are fake. There must be some kind of market for them, since 90% of what you see when you type Broadleaf into the search box on ebay is fake.

No...I am NOT assuming all cards are this cut and dry. I understand some fakes are very good...and I was duped by that cy young on ebay a week or 2 ago. BUT...when the situation IS this cut and dry...I believe they should be more decisive as the route they take by saying questionable authenticity opens the doors for suspect future activity.

Is this acceptable behavior from the foremost card authenticator on the planet?