Something weird is going on here.....

[vthobby]

Just found these 2 1948 Bowman Basketball cards that look pretty similar. Take a close look at the serial number on the TPG flip!

The one on the left was sold on Ebay earlier this year. The one on the right ends in a few days on Ebay.

What are your thoughts?

12184113.jpg s-l1600.jpg

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Nice bump


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[vthobby]

I was thinking almost along the same lines.....

Mike

[Jobu]

Two questions:

1) If PSA bumps your card do they keep the same cert #?

2) I am not convinced that these are the same two cards. There appear to be several small differences between the two cards (e.g., a small white line in the lower right of the background on the 9 that missing in the 8). Could just be scan differences that I see...

[vthobby]

I also noticed some slight differences but how can the cert # be the same?

Mike

[Jobu]

I know nothing about early basketball cards. Is either of these worth a significant amount of $$? There are some pretty convincing fakes out there.

[vthobby]

The PSA 8 sold for $586 earlier this year. It is possible that the PSA 9 could sell for double or more of that price. There is no price info on VCP for a PSA 9 so it will be interesting.

Mike

[pokerplyr80]

My guess is it was sent in for a review and upgraded, so PSA kept the same cert #. I am not aware if this is standard practice. I do not see any obvious signs of either card or flip being a fake.

[bobbyw8469]

Same card....it got a bump. If people are paying a premium, they are buying the flip, and not the card. Nothing has changed on the card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

same card....it got a bump. If people are paying a premium, they are buying the flip, and not the card. Nothing has changed on the card.

if??????

[vthobby]

The interesting thing when talking to other collectors about grading and one of the most prevalent themes seems to be that if you send a higher graded vintage card like a PSA 8 that it rarely if ever bumps 1 grade higher. Maybe a .5 bump but a full 1 point upward swing is something I personally have never seen. I mean if a card was once graded a PSA 8 it MUST have something on the card that prevented it from the MINT 9 threshold and for an 8 to then be looked at and Voila it is MINT now just seems a bit weird. Especially with that top right corner.

Mike

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I will never buy a vintage 9 ever again (I admit I ALWAYS buy the card and not the flip, so if I believe it's nice I'll buy it regardless of grade). I'm going to buy 7's for 1/10th of the price of a 9. Gunna send it for an upgrade to 8's for 1/4th of the price of a 9 (but I'll dabble to upgrade 8's to 9's), and then send it in for a bump to a 9 (once it's an 8 or already an 8) to resell and start the process all over again for monstrous profits.


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[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

I will never buy a vintage 9 ever again (I admit I ALWAYS buy the card and not the flip, so if I believe it's nice I'll buy it regardless of grade). I'm going to buy 7's for 1/10th of the price of a 9. Gunna send it for an upgrade to 8's for 1/4th of the price of a 9 (but I'll dabble to upgrade 8's to 9's), and then send it in for a bump to a 9 (once it's an 8 or already an 8) to resell and start the process all over again for monstrous profits.


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I've never tried but I know there are people who do this. It would have to work often enough to make up for grading and shipping fees when it doesn't. And if you're cracking and resubmitting there's the risk the card actually gets downgraded. Seems risky unless you're at a show where they will give an opinion instantly and avoid shipping fees.

[bobbyw8469]

Not to derail the thread, but could the original submitter instigate a lawsuit against PSA? He paid for a service and got an '8' grade. That placed a monetary value on the card. A subsequent buyer submitted the card for review, got a one grade bump, and now the card is worth a huge premium over what the original submitter got. Why should he lose out because a different grader on a different day determined the exact same card should be worth thousands more?? Just a thought.....

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Not to derail the thread, but could the original submitter instigate a lawsuit against PSA? He paid for a service and got an '8' grade. That placed a monetary value on the card. A subsequent buyer submitted the card for review, got a one grade bump, and now the card is worth a huge premium over what the original submitter got. Why should he lose out because a different grader on a different day determined the exact same card should be worth thousands more?? Just a thought.....

I think the fact that they used the SAME exact serial number is an easy way to actually track a card for those possible future scenarios depending on whether one is litigious or not. I can actually see a valid point being made there if upon "bumping" up, lets say the card was a 1952 Topps Mantle where the price difference is not just a few hundred dollars but multiple multiple THOUSANDS. I would be curious what might happen then.......?

Mike

[TanksAndSpartans]

I don't think anything sinister is going on here. I sent in a card for review in the holder and it came back with a higher grade, a new holder, and the same cert number.

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by DezHood

I don't think anything sinister is going on here. I sent in a card for review in the holder and it came back with a higher grade, a new holder, and the same cert number.

I agree, no one was implying that. I was just curious as to thoughts on the bump and the fact that the TPG used the same exact serial number but it looks like you had something similar. I was not aware they kept the same serial #.
What grade was your card and what did it bump up to?

Thanks! Mike

[bxb]

PSA bumps come back with the same cert number and a new holder.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by bxb

PSA bumps come back with the same cert number and a new holder.

Why did the original submitter not get the '9' grade? He lost out on thousands of dollars....He paid for the exact same service the reviewer paid for. I know grading is subjective, but give me a break.

[iwantitiwinit]

Maybe the original submitter is the current owner.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Maybe the original submitter is the current owner.

Maybe so - maybe not. Still doesn't explain how a card didn't get graded right the first time. What has changed in a few months except for a 2nd set of eyes. Did the card miraculously improve over time?

[glynparson]

After it was reviewed. Not sure what you are getting at. I have received bumps and I have sold cards that have received bumps from others. They do not change the serial number when a card is upgraded upon review. It is a human process mistakes are made. Not a big deal and not sure why anyone would see it as one. You are after all only paying for the opinion of the graders who looked at your card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Maybe so - maybe not. Still doesn't explain how a card didn't get graded right the first time. What has changed in a few months except for a 2nd set of eyes. Did the card miraculously improve over time?

People are constantly advertising their cards as undergraded. This guy put his money where his mouth was and sent it in for review. So on further reflection they agreed with him. So what?

Anyone who thinks or pretends there isn't a subjective element to grading that can change is just wrong, and would be disillusioned by the number of cards that change grades on their way to their final slab.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I've never tried but I know there are people who do this. It would have to work often enough to make up for grading and shipping fees when it doesn't. And if you're cracking and resubmitting there's the risk the card actually gets downgraded. Seems risky unless you're at a show where they will give an opinion instantly and avoid shipping fees.

Lol, right!? I'll try it on some commons and send them in with groups if I end up trying that.


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[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Anyone who thinks or pretends there isn't a subjective element to grading that can change is just wrong

That's how I feel about it, too. If you gave the same grader ten cards (that weren't distinctive or rarities) that he/she previously graded and didn't remember what grade they assigned them, and had them redo them, several of the grades probably change. And if you give them to different graders, I'm sure they agree even less.

Not only is there a subjective element to it, I'd argue that it's largely subjective. The card doesn't change itself, but how a card's flaws are viewed day-to-day certainly can.

[bobbyw8469]

Wasn't getting at anything. Just making a point. If it was indeed a case of a new submitter getting a one grade bump, I would be more than pissed if I was the original submitter. Like a previous poster stated, what if it was a Mantle rookie and the difference in grade was a huge chunk of change? Should the original submitter have not gotten the benefit of the correct grade? He paid for a service after all.....

[glynparson]

I sold a ryan rookie in 8 that got bumped to a 9 and i sold a bench rookie 9 that got bumped to a 10. Bought by two different individuals. Did i get mad? A little at first but those are the breaks. Like i said earlier i have done it many times just not on two cards like those, unfortunately.

[MattyC]

Bumps happen all the time. If one has a card they feel is under graded, and if they want the flip to match what they believe is the deserved grade, then it becomes about persistence-- until the grader is found who thinks the same way about the card. The grading is just some guy's opinion, that's all.

Just my view, but I find that getting consumed with negative energy and bitterness over what happens with another man's cards is counter to the pleasure and enjoyment the hobby is ideally supposed to provide. If someone knows what they have and doesn't need or want or care what the flip says, cool. If someone wants the flip to match what they deserve for whatever reason and gets the bump, also cool. It's all good.

I've had full grade bumps. I've had cards crack and come back as much as three grades higher down the road. I've had crack outs get no-holdered then eventually holder higher than I ever expected. It's crazy. Anytime humans and opinions are involved there will be some occasions of wild, anomalous discrepancies, but it's not something that happens often out of the millions of cards that have been graded.

IMO, in the hypothetical of the high value card mentioned above, the hypothetical owner should not sell if he feels there is meat on the bone, so to speak. Better to hang on to the under graded card and roll the dice on review or crack resub until it "maxes out."

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Wasn't getting at anything. Just making a point. If it was indeed a case of a new submitter getting a one grade bump, I would be more than pissed if I was the original submitter. Like a previous poster stated, what if it was a Mantle rookie and the difference in grade was a huge chunk of change? Should the original submitter have not gotten the benefit of the correct grade? He paid for a service after all.....

Yeah, that's the unfortunate thing with grading. Catching someone on a good/bad day can either mean you make out well or get a raw deal.

My guess is that it all balances out or comes close to it. Think about the original submitters that get a better-than-expected grade. Everyone has these sorts of stories, but I used to have a PSA 3 Moe Berg 1933 Goudey that I showed here on the board a year or so ago. That thing looked much closer to a 1.5 or a 2. Whoever initially got that grade (wasn't me) made out handsomely. Not even close, obviously, to Mantle Rookie handsomely, but you get my point.

I guess the moral of the story is that it's generally better to hang on to cards that look undergraded.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Wasn't getting at anything. Just making a point. If it was indeed a case of a new submitter getting a one grade bump, I would be more than pissed if I was the original submitter. Like a previous poster stated, what if it was a Mantle rookie and the difference in grade was a huge chunk of change? Should the original submitter have not gotten the benefit of the correct grade? He paid for a service after all.....

What if? Imperfect world, deal with it. Original submitter should have persisted if he felt that big a card was undergraded.