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  #51  
Old 06-10-2018, 11:58 AM
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The US population is significantly higher than it was back then, so the overall pool of potential athletes is also significantly higher. I think that combined with the influx of foreign players likely offsets any dilution from more kids focusing on football and basketball in their formative years. I don't see any dilution in the talent level, leaving our nostalgia out of the equation.
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  #52  
Old 06-10-2018, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Vintageclout View Post
Pedro was a truly spectacular pitcher but I’ll take the “other” spectacular pitcher who either gets me thru 8 innings or completes what he starts. A MAJOR difference between the two.
I don't understand penalizing a guy because he dominated in 1997, not 1907. Dominant is dominant, no matter the era.

Do you really think any of the elite pitchers of the past 20 or 30 years couldn't "complete what he starts" if they pitched in the early 1900s? The players back then did it because that was how managers managed.
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  #53  
Old 06-10-2018, 01:59 PM
Vintageclout Vintageclout is offline
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Originally Posted by Bored5000 View Post
I don't understand penalizing a guy because he dominated in 1997, not 1907. Dominant is dominant, no matter the era.

Do you really think any of the elite pitchers of the past 20 or 30 years couldn't "complete what he starts" if they pitched in the early 1900s? The players back then did it because that was how managers managed.
What I’m saying is as great as Seaver, Gibson, Koufax, Palmer, Marichal (just to mention a few great 60s/70s pitchers) were, imagine if their mentality was “I can go into overdrive for the first 7 innings because I don’t need to get the final 3-6 outs”. True, it’s not Pedro’s fault he was pulled either due to a pitch count or closer. BUT, if you honestly think Pedro could have threw 95-97mph CONSIDTENTLY for 250+ innings per season over a 7-10 year period with his fragile frame you are greatly fooling yoursel. There was a reason the Red Sox carefully monitored his workload/innings. They knew EXACTLY what they were doing.

Last edited by Vintageclout; 06-10-2018 at 02:02 PM.
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  #54  
Old 06-10-2018, 02:14 PM
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Pedro in 2000 would be my pick as well. His impressive stats have already been mentioned, but the one that sticks out the most to me is that Clemens finished second in ERA that year, with an average more than twice as high as Pedro's.
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Last edited by pokerplyr80; 06-10-2018 at 02:14 PM.
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  #55  
Old 06-10-2018, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Vintageclout View Post
There was a reason the Red Sox carefully monitored his workload/innings. They knew EXACTLY what they were doing.
That is because when guys in this era are being paid $10,20,30 million dollars a year, they are rightfully viewed as investments.

Players don't just get rolled out there in this era with a torn rotator cuff like a Smoky Joe Wood while the player and the team wonder what's wrong. Perhaps if Smoky Joe Wood pitched in this era, he would not have had to become an outfielder.
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Last edited by Bored5000; 06-10-2018 at 02:19 PM.
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  #56  
Old 06-10-2018, 02:19 PM
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Whitey Ford's innings were relatively low for a star pitcher, was that because he was used a bit more judiciously or was it just injuries?
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  #57  
Old 06-10-2018, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Whitey Ford's innings were relatively low for a star pitcher, was that because he was used a bit more judiciously or was it just injuries?
Casey Stengel definitely used Whitey less than he could have. I'm not sure why he did so, but it wasn't because Whitey was hurt. Maybe Casey thought he was fragile. But the first year after Casey was fired Ralph Houk turned him loose, and Whitey went 25 - 4 and won the Cy Young award.
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  #58  
Old 06-10-2018, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
The US population is significantly higher than it was back then, so the overall pool of potential athletes is also significantly higher. I think that combined with the influx of foreign players likely offsets any dilution from more kids focusing on football and basketball in their formative years. I don't see any dilution in the talent level, leaving our nostalgia out of the equation.
I think you are ignoring that MLB has expanded to account for this. You had 400 or 500 roster spots to fill in the 50s and 60s. When you add the 30 MLB teams, 30 NBA teams and 32 NFL teams you have almost 2900 players in those leagues. There is no way that increase in US population and foreign players cover that increase.

You have a lot of players who would have played baseball that are not even considering it now. Instead they choose to concentrate on another sport and play it all year round. In the past they would have played baseball in the spring/summer and be open to it as a career. Just look at how few blacks there are in MLB. Only about 8%. I don't see how you can say there isn't less talent. HOF voters certainly agree that there is a lot less talent at pitcher.
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  #59  
Old 06-10-2018, 03:51 PM
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In 1964 Dick Raditz went 16-9 with a 2.29 era. Doesn't jump off the page. Until you realize he did this in relief. Pitching in 79 games 157 innings 181 strikeouts and 29 saves. You may find better stats but find me a season that had more of an impact on the team
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  #60  
Old 06-10-2018, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
How about Maddux 1997 when he walked 20 the entire year, 6 intentionally. That is scary good control.
Yes, exactly right. This is one of the seasons I alluded to in my initial post. He also had a complete game with less than 80 pitches! Unbelievable how good he was.....He was maybe even better in 1995, 19-2 with an era of around 1.50.....

Last edited by CMIZ5290; 06-10-2018 at 04:17 PM.
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  #61  
Old 06-10-2018, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Whitey Ford's innings were relatively low for a star pitcher, was that because he was used a bit more judiciously or was it just injuries?
Peter - One thing my dad told me was that Casey Stengel rarely pitched Ford at Fenway Park. Ford had a few really tough starts at Fenway and Stengel eventually found ways to skip his spot in the rotation when the Yanks traveled to Boston.
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  #62  
Old 06-10-2018, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by A2000 View Post
Pedro Martinez in 1999 and 2000, during the height of the steroid era.

When guys like Richard Hildago and Brett Boone were putting up Mike Trout like offensive stats, 150 lb Pedro dominated them all.
Without a doubt, I remember I HAD to watch when he was pitching..
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  #63  
Old 06-10-2018, 07:43 PM
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Another vote for Guidry in 78 but Gooden in 85 was very close if not better. WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHO YOU THINK HAD THE BETTER SEASON OF THE TWO.

Guidry

25-3
1.74 era
9 shutouts
16 complete games
248 strikeouts
Began the season with a streak of 13 games won in a row.
On 4 occasions he pitched 3 complete games in a row.
On 4 occasions he had 2 shutouts in a row.
In all but 1 start he pitched 6 innings or more.

1-0 in alcs 1 earned run in 8 innings
1-0 in w.s. 1 earned run in 9 innings.



Gooden

24-4
1.53 era
8 shutouts
16 complete games
268 strikeouts
A streak of 14 games won in a row.
In all but 1 start he pitched 6 innings or more.


Both pretty impressive.

Last edited by iwantitiwinit; 06-11-2018 at 05:59 AM.
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  #64  
Old 06-10-2018, 08:33 PM
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How about Roy Face in 1959?
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  #65  
Old 06-10-2018, 10:47 PM
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The 19th c. pitcher were pitching 500 innings a year. If you're doing that, you can be half as "good" of a pitcher as today's aces, and contribute the same number of wins to your team. So I'll nominate Pud Galvin's 1884: 636 innings with a 1.99 ERA (or 159 ERA+ if you like normalized stats).

For live-ball, how about Dwight Gooden's in 1985. 276 innings at a 229 ERA+.
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  #66  
Old 06-11-2018, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintageclout View Post
BUT, if you honestly think Pedro could have threw 95-97mph CONSIDTENTLY for 250+ innings per season over a 7-10 year period with his fragile frame you are greatly fooling yoursel.
Funny, neither could Koufax.
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  #67  
Old 06-11-2018, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake View Post
For live ball I like to consider the postseason too, and Orel Hershiser's 1988 was unwordly. 3 wins and a save in the postseason, the scoreless inning streak, untouchable that year.

Jake Arrieta's 2015 was amazing, and I second the 1978 season for Ron Guidry as being up there.

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Arrieta wasn't even the best pitcher in the league in 2015. Zack Greinke had a better season. Greinke led the league in ERA+ and WHIP while finishing with an ERA of 1.66. The highest ERA Greinke had after a start at ANY POINT in 2015 was 1.97. Arrieta gets credit for being unhittable in August and September but... his ERA sat at 3.40 on June 17.

Bottom line: Greinke was great all year. Arrieta was great 1/2 - 2/3 of the year.
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  #68  
Old 06-11-2018, 05:11 AM
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If I had to pick one season, I'd probably go with Bob Gibson's 1968. He went the entire year without being knocked out of a game. Think about that. Lifted for a PH, sure, but never knocked out of a game.

If not Gibson, I'd go with one of Pedro's seasons. When *8* guys put up an OPS of 1.000 or higher, you know the league is bombing the ball. And Pedro still gave up just 1.74 runs a game.

On a side note, way too much emphasis on wins in this conversation. Surely we recognize by now just how overrated that stat is?

Last edited by Tabe; 06-11-2018 at 05:11 AM.
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  #69  
Old 06-11-2018, 12:34 PM
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Pedro's 2000 was pretty easily the best of the past 120 years when just looking at the season he had in relation to the rest of the league that year.

Arguments can and should be made regarding number of innings pitched, games completed, teams in the league, increase of player pool, introduction of the "home run at any time" (thus pitcher can't take pitches or batters "off"), etc.

But in terms of ERA+. it's not that close.
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  #70  
Old 06-11-2018, 12:36 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
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Surprised I haven't seen Dutch Leonard's 1914 season. #2 all time ERA+ for the past 120 years. Freakish season he had.
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  #71  
Old 06-11-2018, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit View Post
Another vote for Guidry in 78 but Gooden in 85 was very close if not better. WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHO YOU THINK HAD THE BETTER SEASON OF THE TWO.

Guidry

25-3
1.74 era
9 shutouts
16 complete games
248 strikeouts
Began the season with a streak of 13 games won in a row.
On 4 occasions he pitched 3 complete games in a row.
On 4 occasions he had 2 shutouts in a row.
In all but 1 start he pitched 6 innings or more.

1-0 in alcs 1 earned run in 8 innings
1-0 in w.s. 1 earned run in 9 innings.



Gooden

24-4
1.53 era
8 shutouts
16 complete games
268 strikeouts
A streak of 14 games won in a row.
In all but 1 start he pitched 6 innings or more.


Both pretty impressive.
Gooden was amazing but John Tudor went 21-8 (went 20-2 I think after a poor start), threw 10 shutouts, led the league in WHIP, had an ERA of 1.93, and didn't get a single 1st place vote. Tough time to have your career year when Gooden throws an all time top 10 season.
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  #72  
Old 06-13-2018, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom S. View Post
I would vote for the 1908 season for Ed Walsh:

40-15 with a 1.42 ERA. 464 innings pitched with 42 complete games and 6 saves. 269 K's against only 56 walks. 11 shutouts and a WHIP of 0.86. Only gave up 2 gopher balls for the season too...
Can tell that you're biased based on your avatar lol. I agree with you though. Incredible season for sure. The craziest thing to me on these dead ball era pitchers is the number of innings pitched. Basically pitching 50 complete games in a season. Absolutely insane no matter what era they were in.
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