New Helmar series--highly unusual--your thoughts?

[GregMitch34]

Certainly not everyone is fan of modern day vintage-looking "art" cards, such as Helmar. I happen to like them but in any case--Charles has introduced a new line in past month and forgive me if I've missed any mention here. He's taking cards from his t206 lookalike series (and a few others) and dressing them up with borders made of cork and Japanese paper and more, and then enclosing them in fine plastic. I got my first one and they are very cool (if you like this sort of thing) and the cards protected and the whole thing, one imagines, "one of a kind." Yes, they are selling for a premium. Here's how he describes them, although he seems to leave out the plastic case:

--"Your exceedingly rare and beautiful art card specimen has been distinctively mounted by a trained professional here at Helmar. The art card is first cradled within a shaped slice of Portugese cork (which provides a great natural barrier to moisture). Your artisan has then selected a decorative paper from our inventory of fine Japanese papers (most hand-made) to dress the mount with style. A hand-written tag is prepared that identifies the card's identification number within the series. The rims of the frame are sealed by Japanese washi papers. Your artisan has affixed their personal label and initials to the reverse. There are often additional hand written notes and tags identifying important information about the artwork or player. Lastly, each mounting has been bound together by waxed thread or metal bullion and permanently fixed with our company's wax imprimatur. The finished size is 4" x 2.5"."

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1533261605

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1533261828

[vthobby]

Greg,

Thanks for the info. I've checked out their Facebook page and am intrigued. Signed up for their email list so we will see! Thanks and yes it looks interesting!

Mike

[RedsFan1941]

just not a fan. not much different than the shiny new stuff that is overpriced

[drcy]

Was never a fan of these issues (just my opinion, and to each his own), but I like the above pictured.

[Throttlesteer]

I think some of them look pretty sharp. But I get turned off when I see descriptions include, "for the advanced collector".

[bnorth]

I really like their work, most of their cards like the ones above are very nice looking. Absolutely hate the fact they are using the name of a real vintage company and would never buy anything they make because of that.

[bbcard1]

Not at all a fan. They are Broders in a different color clothing.

[swarmee]

Design is a rip off of Topps Allen & Ginter framed minis.

[Paul S]

Overwrought

[GregMitch34]

Little in common with that Topps thlng but if you don't like, fine, I don't own share of the company.

[Paul S]

Not that I dislike the cards, but if they distributed them like Hires in 1958, I could be a Yuengling person

[GregMitch34]

That's a little too deep for me....

[Republicaninmass]

Portuguese cork, isn't all cork from Portugal? I have quite a few items imported from far off China!


I cant see it being a piece of art, and using the name of an old badeball related company just doesn't sit well with me. Probably better than Banty Red, which is just a completely made up company to sell baseball cards, but it doesn't tick any boxes of reasons, or items I collect. I cant see them holding any value, which is a secondary reason I collect. Then again a card can have 30 different 1/1 parallels and people will buy them up.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I kinda like them, I just wish they'd dial back on the hype. They're very nice fantasy pieces.

[sirraffles]

Actually, I've never seen a Topps framed mini as I don't follow Topps. The inspiration came from 19th century microscope slides (I have a small collection). The slides are wonderful and it struck me that they could be adapted for cards. I've always had a great distaste for the hideously ugly slabbed cards that ruin the beauty of the card within. For the life of me I can't imagine why any true collector would allow such a thing in their collection. Charles.

[swarmee]

2009 Topps Allen & Ginter's - Framed Mini Autographs - [Autographed] #AGA-PH - Phil Hughes
Courtesy of COMC.com

Ok, you can see where I made the assumption from. Surprised you've never seen this type of thing. They even put real T206s in them:


1909-11 T206 - [Base] - Sweet Caporal 350 Factory No. 30 Back 2002 Topps 206 Framed Buyback #BIBE - Bill Bergen
Courtesy of COMC.com

[insidethewrapper]

I'm sure some buy and try to sell off as vintage to unknowing collectors. This should be posted in Modern Forum , not pre-war.

[sirraffles]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Portuguese cork, isn't all cork from Portugal? I have quite a few items imported from far off China!


I cant see it being a piece of art, and using the name of an old badeball related company just doesn't sit well with me. Probably better than Banty Red, which is just a completely made up company to sell baseball cards, but it doesn't tick any boxes of reasons, or items I collect. I cant see them holding any value, which is a secondary reason I collect. Then again a card can have 30 different 1/1 parallels and people will buy them up.

Actually cork grows in a number of different places but the best cork is from Portugal. I looked at samples from three different countries before deciding on Portuguese cork. The North African cork seemed to crumble too easily for my taste; I worried that over time it would become too brittle. French cork, at least the samples that I examined, had an odd hue.

As for the name "Helmar", it is perfect for my purposes. There are those that would complain no matter which name had been chosen, even if this seems beyond silly to me.

Importantly, Helmar does not even try to appeal to everyone because that would mean trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator. We'd have to lower the quality and ignore the discernment that we've become known for. I'll take collectors that are knowledgeable about art and history every time. We love everyone but it is interesting that our customers skew to occupations such as authors, attorneys, business owners, professors, doctors, etc.

Lastly, no one can know the future value of any collectible. I do know that when I am done we will have a body of work that will be comprehensive, of high quality, intrinsically interesting, and all the while enjoying relative scarcity. The body of work will also have the advantages of being unique for its time--we march to our own drummer. Do those that invest against the group-think do best in the end? You bet. The best part, though, is that collecting Helmar is a fun pastime. God bless. Charles

[RedsFan1941]

God bless you too

[bigfanNY]

I have been impressed with the "Helmar issues" The problem I have with them is...I still walk around flea markets here on the East coast, and once in awhile I see someone selling one of these items. Always a similar story "I don't know anything about Sports items I sell Antique ( Whatever) I picked this up in an estate..large lot etc. Ty Cobb Cy Young Shoeless Joe is good though and I only want $100 $250..$300 etc..
I just politely say that this item was made in the past couple years not vintage. And I walk on.I know with smart phone folks can figure this stuff out pretty quick but not everybody has one.

[sirraffles]

If they are Helmar Ty Cobbs, etc., they are asking in the right price range.

Charles

[RedsFan1941]

would you mind including your full name in your posts. like the rules say?

[sirraffles]

Charles Mandel.

[oldjudge]

Nice looking but worthless. If you want nice pictures of players buy a book. Besides the pictures you might also learn things you didn’t know.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Nice looking but worthless. If you want nice pictures of players buy a book. Besides the pictures you might also learn things you didn’t know.

"I like nice looking - worthless can be negotiated." - anonymous


.

[sirraffles]

Sorry, I didn't catch your full name in the post. Like the rules say?

Personally, I don't buy books for the purty pictures but I understand that is all some people can handle. Charles Mandel

[oldjudge]

Perhaps you should purchase a few books; it might do you some good. I read books to learn about the history of the sport. These books usually include some great period pictures, which to me are preferable to your cards. As I said, your cards are nice looking, but I don’t think that they will ever have anything other than de minimis value. No God Bless for me?

Jay Miller

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Perhaps you should purchase a few books; it might do you some good. I read books to learn about the history of the sport. These books usually include some great period pictures, which to me are preferable to your cards. As I said, your cards are nice looking, but I don’t think that they will ever have anything other than de minimis value. No God Bless for me?

Jay Miller

Sic 'em, Jay! - and 'God Bless'


How about forgetting about books and cards for a second and donate for dogs?

[sirraffles]

Jay, a very special God Bless for you.

I have published a magazine called Baseball History & Art but I lean toward the notion that there is no such thing as an expert (with the exception, perhaps, of mathematics and related fields).

I don't quite follow your preference for a picture in a book being more enjoyable than owning a card. If you have a T206 Wagner I will trade for it in exchange for a picture of Wagner in a book. They are not the same thing at all in my view but whatever pleases. Charles Mandel

[oldjudge]

Charles, there is a big difference between a vintage card and a recently created Cinderella item. If my choice is the Cinderella card or a nice photograph in a book I will always go with the book. And thank you for the blessing.

[sirraffles]

I understand that you use the word "Cinderella" as a pejorative.

Just out of curiosity I'd be interested to know exactly what the difference is. Is it because the players are retired or even deceased? You're aware that many, many examples of manufacturers including players such as this are found throughout card history. The Goudey Lajoie is just one example. Is it because the Helmar cards are not that old? They will be, and before any of us would like.

I'm definitely not referring to you here but often it is apparent that my detractors voice absolutely silly logic and approach the entire conversation with a serious chip on their shoulders. Sometimes I find it hard not to reply in kind.

I've wondered about this from time to time. These collectors act as though the mere fact that I make wonderful cards personally threatens and insults them. Newsflash: I make cards to make myself feel good, not to make anyone else feel bad. But the fact remains that some collectors respond to my cards as if they are a vague but real threat to their own collections, collections that they have invested heavily in and have painstakingly built from scratch. These collectors do not seem to understand that Helmar cards do not detract in any way from cards made in the past. Yes, my new card of Joe Schmoe might well sell for more money than your 100 year old card of Joe Schmoe...but the old Schmoe card does not suffer. I'm sorry if that makes you mad or jealous but the fact is that Helmar brings more attention to the old Schmoe card and helps support a market for it. I know for a fact that collectors that have come back through Helmar have gone on to once more purchase older cards. You're welcome.

The hobby is much smaller than it was for a lot of complicated (and not complicated) reasons. Helmar is not one of them on any level. I have gotten many, many guys that have written saying that they have started collecting again because of Helmar. Some had quit because they thought card prices had reached stupid and unreachable levels for their budgets. Most, I think, say they quit because the hobby was simply not fun anymore. I make it fun again for them and I am honored to do so. I take my small role seriously. My name is Charles Mandel and I place it here because it is the rule.

[oldjudge]

I used the term Cinderella to describe a card made to appear like a vintage card, but simply being a modern creation. In answer to your question, I have no fear that your creations will directly impact what I collect. I collect photographic cards and there is no mistaking the difference. What i do fear is that some new people to the hobby might confuse your cards with vintage cards and unknowingly purchase them. I think you could go a long way to avoid this by putting the date of their printing on the back of the card. As to comparing your cards to the Lajoie, the Lajoie was a tribute card issued as part of a set of players then currently playing. Those players received payment for their images being used on the cards. Do you pay the families of the players whose images appear on your cards?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by sirraffles

As for the name "Helmar", it is perfect for my purposes. There are those that would complain no matter which name had been chosen, even if this seems beyond silly
God bless. Charles

Sure you picked it out.of the air

Politely I'd say

Go bless yourself, Isee what you've tried to do. Its thinly veiled

[sirraffles]

Is your question of royalties supposed to be your zinger? The ultimate test of what is and what is not a card? Laughable. If you collect early photographic cards then you already know that virtually every one of the cards in your early collection did not pay royalties. Will you now get rid of them? We'll have to consider them illegitimate and I'm sure that you'd like to be consistent in your philosophy. Sadly they are fading into nothingness anyway. I wonder what a blank Cinderella card will sell for? In my case the families of the players are among the best customers that I have. Literally hundreds of family members have Helmar cards and consider them heirlooms. Regarding Lajoie: the fact also remains that he was retired, probably not paid, and was a "Cinderella" card as per your own tortured logic. It will come as a disappointment to many that it, along with thousands of others from the early days until the present, are not real cards. Your fear of new people buying Helmar cards and somehow being swindled is silly at best. Our cards often sell for more than vintage anyway. You make a decisive error if you are conflating our cards with reprints. I agree that reprints are a danger. Better that we all just look at nice pictures in books. Charles Mandel.

[sirraffles]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Sure you picked it out.of the air

Politely I'd say

Go bless yourself, Isee what you've tried to do. Its thinly veiled

You forgot to sign your full name. I am doubtful that you see much.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by sirraffles

Is your question of royalties supposed to be your zinger? The ultimate test of what is and what is not a card? Laughable. If you collect early photographic cards then you already know that virtually every one of the cards in your early collection did not pay royalties. Will you now get rid of them? We'll have to consider them illegitimate and I'm sure that you'd like to be consistent in your philosophy. Sadly they are fading into nothingness anyway. I wonder what a blank Cinderella card will sell for? In my case the families of the players are among the best customers that I have. Literally hundreds of family members have Helmar cards and consider them heirlooms. Regarding Lajoie: the fact also remains that he was retired, probably not paid, and was a "Cinderella" card as per your own tortured logic. It will come as a disappointment to many that it, along with thousands of others from the early days until the present, are not real cards. Your fear of new people buying Helmar cards and somehow being swindled is silly at best. Our cards often sell for more than vintage anyway. You make a decisive error if you are conflating our cards with reprints. I agree that reprints are a danger. Better that we all just look at nice pictures in books. Charles Mandel.

My, haven't you gotten defensive. When the only way you can make an argument is by twisting the other party's words it is probably better to fade quietly into the background. BTW, that was a long answer to simply say that you are not paying for player images.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by sirraffles

You forgot to sign your full name. I am doubtful that you see much.

If you look his name is in every post he makes. It is located under his ID.

I stand by my opinion in post #6. Beautiful cards but because of the very confusing name I will avoid them.

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by sirraffles

Jay, a very special God Bless for you.

\ Charles Mandel

Quick tip Charles. You can put your name in the header and you don't have to sign every message. Actually unless it's contentious you really don't need to post your name, though as president of Helmar, it probably is proper when you are commenting on the cards to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest / advertising.

Good luck.

[sirraffles]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Quick tip Charles. You can put your name in the header and you don't have to sign every message. Actually unless it's contentious you really don't need to post your name, though as president of Helmar, it probably is proper when you are commenting on the cards to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest / advertising.

Good luck.

Thank you. As for the previous poster I see what might be a name where it is suggested that I look but it has a lot of odd characters and I can't make it out.

[sirraffles]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

My, haven't you gotten defensive. When the only way you can make an argument is by twisting the other party's words it is probably better to fade quietly into the background. BTW, that was a long answer to simply say that you are not paying for player images.

I wasn't twisting your words at all; you have no answer. On the images I have the blessings of many of the families, all that I've had contact with. They are pleased to purchase the cards the same way everyone else does, at auction.

But perhaps I am irritable today. I came to the board earlier today to see if I could find someone to contact about a grouping of 57 T206 cards. They were offered to a Helmar collector and he wanted my opinion. They are in horrible shape. Anyway, when I logged on I found that I was being blamed for making that replica Hassan sign that is the subject of a thread or two. How irritating! How smug the accusations! Why even think of me in relation to that madness?

Of all the Old Judge cards out there, I hope that yours fade the last. Charles Mandel

[CobbSpikedMe]

I have been reading this thread and watched it turn into a good shit show. I must say, at first I actually liked some of the Helmar cards. But then Charles showed up in this thread and has acted like a pompous sarcastic child and I noticed all my appreciation for Helmar cards fade away.

Amazing how fast it has happened too. You've single handedly lost all my respect and ruined Helmar cards for me just by what you've typed in this one thread. I'm sure you'll come up with some smart response like how you don't care about one customer lost and I'm probably not the type of person who fits your customer base or something similar. Which is fine with me. Because I'm not posting this for you. I'm posting this for all the other board members to know how much of an idiot you are.

Andy Huntoon

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by sirraffles

Thank you. As for the previous poster I see what might be a name where it is suggested that I look but it has a lot of odd characters and I can't make it out.

People do that so that the name can be made out but your identity can't be easily scraped by bots. It's not that difficult to figure out.

[sirraffles]

Oh, I care about every customer. You're just not one and never intended to be one. Your virtue signaling has been noted by everyone, I'm sure, and I hope it gets you the attention that you desire. Glad to have been of service. Charles Mandel

[CobbSpikedMe]

and there it is.

[bbcard1]

I think this thread is done. Maybe we should put a Portuguese Cork in it....

[sirraffles]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

I think this thread is done. Maybe we should put a Portuguese Cork in it....

I thought it was coming along nicely. Enjoy your day and God Bless. Charles

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

My, haven't you gotten defensive. When the only way you can make an argument is by twisting the other party's words it is probably better to fade quietly into the background. BTW, that was a long answer to simply say that you are not paying for player images.

I read this whole post as I enjoy the look of the Helmar cards and, in response to the original post, really like the look of this card. For the record, I don't own any and never have bought any. I will say, if he is on the defensive it is because he and/or his product was being disparaged. Eric Harrington

[bigfanNY]

Originally Posted by sirraffles

If they are Helmar Ty Cobbs, etc., they are asking in the right price range.

Charles

Charles:
instead of responding to my post and the fact that you know that the items you produce are used to decieve. You come back and say that "if They are Helmar Ty cobbs they are in the right price range". Well you know that statement is a lie. A quick search on Ebay brings up a couple Helmar Ty Cobb Stamps selling for $13.
Which brings up another subject Helmar did issue a series of "art Stamps" So not only are you using a name that is associated with turn if the century baseball cards you issue Stamps that can more easily fool a novice.
You point to the Doctors, Accountants and lawyers who purchase some of these items to make nice displays. And families of players who do the same. I am sure that they do appreciate the items for the images they portray. But why not clearly date these items to reduce the chance that they will cause harm. None of the folks who buy these items for the images is going to care if they are labeled responsibility.
So my point is you knowingly produce items that you know can and have been used in the past to cause harm to people. On top of that you come here and Lie. So no matter how you spin it you make a living producing items used to defraud individuals. You could easily reduce that chance but have chosen not to.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

I read this whole post as I enjoy the look of the Helmar cards and, in response to the original post, really like the look of this card. For the record, I don't own any and never have bought any. I will say, if he is on the defensive it is because he and/or his product was being disparaged. Eric Harrington

+1. Don't own any and never have, but I really like them.

People will pay crazy prices for a Diamond Gold Foil Refractor Titanium card of a modern prospect who may never make it to his second contract in the big leagues.

I have no problem with somebody paying a premium for a modern fantasy art card of Josh Gibson or Tris Speaker, where a lot of thought and creativity actually went into the creation of it.

It's pretty easy to do a cursury search of these things to find out if they are modern or not. Considering the actual fraud going on in this hobby, as evidenced by the T206 autograph scandal going on at this moment that duped many very experienced collectors on this very board for years, I'd say this is almost the least of the hobbies worries.........

[pokerplyr80]

I'd consider buying a reprint of an actual vintage card before one of these. And that would only be to temporarily fill a hole in a set until I bought the real card. I don't get the appeal of a modern card made to look vintage and artificially aged. And I wouldn't do business with someone who comes here and posts with the attitude shown in this thread. It reminds me of the thread for the candiman auction.