Question about the Red Cobb Portait with Drum back T206

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard L.

It seems strange, according to Art's great/informative post, that the card was too be destroyed several years ago, so it should have never ended up in someone else's hands. That would be quite a story to unearth!

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave F

Steve...

So would it be in PSA's best interest to get in a pissing match about what they should or shouldn't be resonsible for in this case? Or is it better for them to compensate the seller in this case for the amount he has in it...which $2500 is a whole lot cheaper than compensating someone else $10k + down the line..while at the same time now destroying the card so this won't happen again? (at least not with this specific card)

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Art,
Commendable research and post.
Scot

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

our search function works well....


http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1060714052/Beckett+takes+the+Low+Road+on+BVG

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve Murray

It seems to me that with what the owner now knows about the card if a sale goes through to a BFP, despite that knowledge, then PSA, if found liable to the BFP, would have a third party action back against the seller.

BFP.......Bona Fide Purchaser

[Archive]

Posted By: PC

Steve: I think the language added to the auction description defeats any BFP argument -- with that disclaimer, it would be hard for any purchaser of that card to try to recoup losses from PSA or from the seller.

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve Murray

I agree.

"UPDATE:: 8/23/2007 at noon: There have been questions raised about the card's authenticity. I would like to directly address that topic. Some very experienced collectors have mentioned the possibility of this card being re-backed. I happen respect their opinion and am sharing this fact with the buyer. However, the buyer should also consider that two professional grading companies, both BVG and PSA have slabbed this card as being worth of a grade of 1. I have purchased the card as a graded card and have submitted it for crossover to PSA which it successfully achieved and therefore have never personally touched this raw card (and certainly have never altered it). Please weigh these factors as you consider a bid and feel free to email with any questions."

[Archive]

Posted By: Zach Rice

Per Art’s request, here is a picture of the Drum backed T206 Cobb that appeared in a Mastronet Auction in 2000. I don’t want to really get involved with this thread, but the card is obviously different than the one being offered on eBay.





http://mastroauctions.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=7953&LastLotListing=Lot%20List%20Categories&CurrentRow=1

[Archive]

Posted By: JK

If I understand correctly, this card was originally repurchased by PSA when it was pulled from the mastro auction. It was supposed to be destroyed by psa, but instead it ended up back in circulation in a BVG/BGS slab. Ultimately it is purchased by the Levys who resubmit it to psa. In my opinion, it is psa who should ultimately make the Levy's whole because of its failure to properly insure that the card was removed from circulation.

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve Murray

Where does this revelation put us vis-a-vis the card on ebay?

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve Murray

it clearly isn't the same card.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

If you look at Art M's post above, it seems pretty clear that the Drum back he posted from the Orser auction is the same Drum back on the new PSA Cobb - just look at that print dot/blemish on the left border. However, the Orser Drum back and the PSA 1 Cobb are clearly different than the PSA 2 Cobb. i still think the PSA 1 Cobb looks bad, but that PSA 2 Cobb that has been rebought (and possibly destroyed) doesn't look as bad. I don't see the same spider wrinkles as one would expect.

[Archive]

Posted By: JK

Steve,

I agree after seeing the scan above, but zach posted that scan while I was typing. If that is the mastro card that Art was referring to then my comments are not applicable.

[Archive]

Posted By: ScottLevy

I just got off the phone with someone in the know about the situation. I've been told that Mr. Gary Moser was the individual who purchased a lot of rare backed cards in the Oser auction and then submitted this Cobb which was then a PSA2 to Mastronet, exactly as had been explained on here. However, hearing that name, we checked our records and discovered that we purchased the card from Gary Moser in the online auction. I plan to call BVG to find out who originally submitted the card but my guess is that its going to be Gary Moser. If anyone knows Gary, I'd sure like to have a chat with him.

From my perspective (and my dad's perspective) this closes out any shadow of a doubt about the card. It is obviously re-backed and it will be removed from the eBay auction. Now I just need to figure out how to go about trying to get our money back. What a pain in the neck !!

I will let you know if we get a happy ending...

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

ZACH R

A large f/b scan of the Red Cobb/Drum card that Art M is referring to is found in this link.....scan down to 3:48 PM

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1180700707/last-1180770222/rebacked

[Archive]

Posted By: Zach Rice

Ted-

I have seen the link and know the card shown in it. However, Art mentioned in his post, that the T206 Drum Cobb currently on eBay is the same as the one that was sold as lot 561 in Mastro’s November 2000 Auction. This is not true. The cards are clearly different. The card on eBay, right now, was never sold in a Mastro auction, thus the history of the card being different than the original post states.

Since these are two completely different cards, who is to say that PSA did not destroy the Drum backed Cobb that appeared in the Mastro auction?

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

ZACH R

The card in question on ebay is......

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220142267373

The card posted by Brian W (on the link I have provided above) is identical, but in a Beckett holder.
Click on both links and do an A-B comparison.

If I undertood Art M's story correctly this is the DRUM back from the original Donovan card that it was on.

The Cobb in your scan appears to be a 2nd Cobb/Drum and is a different one than the one currently on ebay.

Perhaps, Art will chime in and resolve this enigma.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Kravitz

I believe this the very card I had in my hand at The National. I saw it at a dealers table in a BVG holder and asked if I could take it to SGC and if it was legit. If so, I would have bought it. Not only did SGC tell me it was a poor example of a re-backed card, but Mike Baker and PSA said they would not break it out of the BVG holder and put it in one of theirs. The edges made me pause when I first saw the card, and it didn't look right, but if SGC had said it was good I would have picked it up. I knew that the card was bogus, but it was worth a try. Instead of being out $7K+, I'm out $100 in grading fees.

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

"How did this get through PSA" "When was it graded" you guys are killing me!!!!!!!!!!!!! You think PSA graders know cards older than 1951??? Good thing I was sitting down when I read this post. Rand, you know better and I know you know better! Dan.

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

I bought this offline for $18K, How did I do?

[Archive]

Posted By: Dizzy Dean

Excuse me but (while this is a great thread) some of it is really just too much to take -- one of the people who RECENTLY weighing in on this topic has sold me (way back when) three trimmed T206's which were not represented as such on eBay (likely rejected back in the day before the major companies would slab a card as "Authentic").

If someone will fudge the truth on smaller stuff, how can they then feel holy enough to criticize one of the bigger scams?

[Archive]

Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"While I do have over a decade of experience in collecting T206 cards and rare backs, I am not a printing expert and probably wouldn't be able to myself judge if a card is rebacked or trimmed or altered, which is why for high value cards we tend to purchase graded items."



For what it's worth, I would be more than happy to inspect the card just for the price of postage (no cost). If it's rebacked I can more than likely tell without a problem and explain my findings in detail (if necessary). Email me if interested.

All the best,

Kevin Saucier

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Card has been re-sent to PSA for their review. I have also included several comment from board members on their view of its authenticity....which is most certainly in question now. Stay tuned for PSA's response.

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott

PSA and ourselves have agreed to surrender T206 rebacked drum cobb to PSA for their training purposes and never to be released into the hobby again. PSA in turn has decided to compensate us for our original purchase price.

While it is very disappointing to myself and my dad that this card is not real at least noone else will get hurt by it.

Thanks to all for your expert opinions.

-Scott Levy