Live Auction: Standard Biscuit Cobb - Shill Bidding?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Joann, I have it on good information that i***l knew about this auction before Matt's posting.

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Posted By: Joann

OK. That's good enough for me.

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Posted By: Jim VB

Matt,


There is little or no value to it for Joann or anyone else, EXCEPT SGT.HOSS!

He may place the value of your posting somewhere in the neighborhood of negative $900!

That may be the impact on his checkbook in this case. (In fairness, he did place a bid, higher than anyone else, before you outed the auction.) Your posting may have, inadvertently, brought people to this auction.

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Posted By: Matt

Jim - apparently not.

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Posted By: Jim VB

<<apparently not.>>

Agreed. As it worked out in this case, everything was fine. It's just something to keep in mind before you post.

As I said, I, personally, won't out an auction because I don't feel knowledgable enough in most of these areas. Glad it worked out this time.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Sgt Hoss was willing to pay at least $1691, he got his card, and I bet he is happy to have won it.

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Posted By: Wesley

Sgt. Hoss is a forum member that occassionally posts on the Net 54. I think this thread costed him some money.

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Posted By: Matt

Wesley, if you read even a few posts up, it has been shown that it did not.

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Posted By: Wesley

Matt, I didn't read that. What did you post?

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Posted By: quan

it's nice to see that "i****l" is human and loses a card (or case) once in a while

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

After the auction was posted, I thought the bidding may have gone higher. I was going to put in a bid around the $1500-1600 area, but thought I would get blown out of the water so I just went back to work instead. So, even if someone else hadn't bid I would have bid around the same amount. In this instance it doesn't appear that it cost Scot much more than if it hadn't been posted.

I do think Matt had good intentions for posting it, and for that I thank him. But I'm sure he will be a little more reluctant in the future.
-Rhett

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Posted By: Matt

Rhett - you're correct; I and others will be more reluctant in the future, the question that we're discussing in the poll thread, is that a good thing?

One other thing that comes out of this is that in this case there seems to be 0 financial impact from outing the listing, which is always the argument not to out something. Obviously it's only 1 case, but I'm not aware of any other sample data.

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Posted By: JK

I personally think that the fears of outing an auction are overstated except for cards that are listed in the wrong category or misspelled, etc. People here just dont miss much if the card is in the correct category.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm in total agreement with Josh on that one.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Damn you Matt....if you hadn't started this thread NOBODY would have noticed that TY COBB card on EBAY!!!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Quan, you're jinxing "l***i"!

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Remember Jeff Quan said it first I didnt!!! I emailed!!!

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Posted By: Matt

Thanks for the smiley Dan - I don't think I've ever upset so many people I've never met before by trying to be helpful. You should see the nasty emails.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

NASTY EMAILS ARE TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE!!!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Matt- if you want to do some outing, out the names of the people who sent those emails. They are unacceptable!

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I've said it here numerous times, but I'll say it again anyway....It is impossible to out an ebay auction that is listed in the correct category. Is there anyone here who somehow missed this auction while perusing the pre-1930 category? or while doing regular searches for "Ty Cobb"?

Some people just like to be outraged for the sake of being outraged.

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Posted By: quan

matt i hope you're joking as what sick people would berate you for outing an auction--in the correct category, with the proper classification, with the correct name of arguably the most famous athlete in his sport? from the bidder history most aren't even in the same country as jeff's and the winning bid.

if this was listed as an iphone in the abercrombie clothing line for infants between 3-6 months i can see the harm in outing the auction, but this is ridiculous.

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Posted By: Matt

While I also found at least 1 of the emails totally unacceptable, I'm not going to pass along names; the people obviously felt strongly about what I did and expressed that to me (OK, so they used all caps and tried to make me feel small). I am much more bothered by dishonest business practices then I am by people who chose to express themselves inappropriately.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Matt- sorry you had to be harassed by a bunch of loose cannons (now I will probably get private emails from those same people!).

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Nah, Barry, couldn't happen to you.

Matt, I think what you did was ok because it was clear you had no ill-intent; there have been people who have outed auctions that they are running. Different story there. And as Dan and others have mentioned, trust me, this card was easy to find.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Matt,
Lets hope maybe Sgt.Hoss comes on and posts what he thinks about all of this. He may thankyou it the fact that lets say his bid was 3000. you just saved him a ton of money! Now that the cat is out of the bag so to speak of who the under bidder was in my opinion I really dont think by outing this auction it had anything to do with the final price of the card. Barry pointed out a major point this man is a knowledgeable buyer ,knew what he wanted ,and put a bid in I believe before you made this posting. Therefore he knew what he wanted to pay for the item looked it over and was convinced it wasnot a FORGERY<OR ALTERED and put in his bid. For what ever reason maybe he doesnt have a sniper program,couldnt be by a computer at that time,what ever he placed a bid that was obviously higher than what the card was won for and I dont believe that shilling was a factor in his decision. That is why I stated Im for outing an auction based on the 2 principles not the other.

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Posted By: Matt

Jeff - you and Rheet have both now said you have no problem with me outing the listing, yet looking back on the thread, you were the first ones to object to my posting it (albeit subtle objections). You now seem to agree that there was nothing to "out" as it was an obvious auction, I'm not sure what changed.

I think as much as the OP has a responsibility on message boards, the initial responders also do since they frame the way the OP's post is taken by the readers.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Because in theory I agree with you 100%; it was the right thing to do and you had no ill-intent. In practice, I was concerned that your good deed might cost me some money. Based on my response, I hope it was clear that I begrudgingly recognized that you did the right thing.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I still think "outing" is defined as revealing an auction that is hidden in the wrong category, and would likely be missed by most people. Can we all agree that a Ty Cobb card placed in the right category with "Ty Cobb" spelled correctly in the title will be seen by everybody who cares?

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Posted By: Matt

got it. thanks Jeff.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Matt, while nothing really gets past most of these guys...it's conceivable that one or two items might get past one of these guys who may have seen this post. While not likely it could happen and I think that's why most people don't like to see any ebay auctions posted here until they are over.

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Posted By: Matt

Dan - is that a retraction from:

"I've said it here numerous times, but I'll say it again anyway....It is impossible to out an ebay auction that is listed in the correct category. Is there anyone here who somehow missed this auction while perusing the pre-1930 category? or while doing regular searches for "Ty Cobb"?"

One other question, it seems the argument for not outing shilling is that if you win something for an amount you were willing to pay, what's the difference. Personally, I don't ever want to do business or support dishonest business, so I would prefer to know about it and avoid the seller. Who knows what else that seller has done once they are cheating an auction.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Matt, I'm not retracting anything...that's how some people feel...I do not. One guy ain't going to make a difference when hundreds already saw it. It's Ty Freaking Cobb.

Now if you go outing a Nebraska Indians postcard then I'm going to be mad as Hell....I might even send you a nasty email in ALL CAPS!!!

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Posted By: bigfish387t

This idea of shill bidding should have been brought up after the auction had closed. I think the price would have went high either way. Scott, great card.

My 2 cents

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Posted By: Scot

Wow!, Just had a chance to sit down at a computer.

Matt,
No hard feelings here, I'm happy with the card and price.

I just purchased this 1924 Willard's Chocolates #39 Ty Cobb as well. This card was owned by Jefferson Burdick (written in light pencil on back) and Buck Barker (stamped). I had a good Cobb day.

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Posted By: Joe D.

congrats on two great pickups.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

"I'm happy with the card and price."


...in the end that's all that matters.


congrats Scot!


i think this should be a lesson for outing auctions BEFORE they are over...people need to be MORE selective doing it.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Scot,

Both are great cards. Well done. And good of you to have no displeasure with Matt.

As I posted elsewhere, I don't have that much of a problem with outing an auction outright. The auction is about the money the seller will pay, and that the buyer wants. It shouldn't be a hide and seek game. True, I'm tickled if I find something others overlook. But if I sell something I'd want all potential buyers to know of it. And if these cardprice sites are to have any validity, surely they should report what a card would sell for, and to remove that hide and seek factor.

I understand that lots of folks are against auction outings, but I think that it isn't such a bad thing. If I know some collector is after some odd seldom seen set, say maybe he has a few 1913 Cleveland Indian post cards, and is after the two he lacks... if I were to see one on eBay I'd let him know about it. That isn't so bad, it helps my collector friend and helps the seller.

Any of you guys collect 1913 Cleveland Indian post cards??? If you were missing one, would you like to know when one comes up? Oh yea!!!

While I hope that stuff I want to win on eBay goes overlooked by others, I don't mind you guys outing any auction I'm in on. And it seems to me that bidders who are against outing are against it for their own greedy reasons, where they're wanting the item for as little money as possible. I applaud Scot's response.

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Posted By: Matt

"i think this should be a lesson for outing auctions BEFORE they are over...people need to be MORE selective doing it."

If anything, I think this supports the view that outing a live auction of a vintage card that is listed in the correct category has absolutely 0 effect on the auction outcome since there was nothing "outed" as several have already said. We can all speculate about more eyes seeing the auction, etc. but here we have an actual case where it happened and none of the theoretical came into play.

I would hope others would do the same as I did in the future, if they have strong suspicion of something fishy in an auction. I'd like to know of any potential pitfalls when bidding on something.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Matt,
It was just like I thought in one of my earlier posts.
Nice job on the cards Scot and an equally good response!

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Without taking sides on the outing issue, a sample size of 1 (this particular auction for the Cobb) proves nothing.

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Posted By: Matt

Rob - I agree. Unfortunately, we don't have any other data. It does, however, disprove the notion that outing an auction will definitely affect the outcome.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Matt,
I would have to disagree with that. I believe it only possibly proves that about shill biding. I believe it would have a huge effect on the out come if you had said I believe this card is "possibly" a fake or a forgery. Someone who lets say is a little "novice" about buying cards might have read your post and decided not to bid based on your statement. Which should always be backed up by facts before outing an auction. Why you think this? what makes you feel there is a problem with the card ?and always backed up by facts. Because as others have stated here if it turns out not to be true you will have one very angry seller! Rob is right a bigger sample is definetely needed before you can state that.

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Posted By: Matt

Al, you can disagree, but that's the way logic works. I said:

"It does, however, disprove the notion that outing an auction will definitely affect the outcome."

If you disagree, that means you believe that outing an auction always effects the outcome, but then you would have a tough time explaining what happened yesterday since you only need 1 case to disprove an 'always' statement.

Now we can have a discussion about whether outing an auction is more or less likely to effect the outcome since a sample of 1 doesn't prove that either way, but you can't logically says that it "will definitely affect the outcome."

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Well after the others see the last few posts I guess we will let them weigh in with thier thoughts and comments and see if they think what you said is a fair statement.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

"outing a live auction of a vintage card that is listed in the correct category has absolutely 0 effect on the auction outcome"

matt- an auction can be listed in the right spot and it could be featured on eBay's home page for all i care, BUT, the point is that once an auction link is posted here...1,000's of eyes (as someone mentioned earlier), will go right to the auction...and i think it is safe to say that NOT EVERY person knew about the auction or saw it...THEREFORE, it "outs" a live auction...and in theory you have just invited MORE bidders to jump in...and inadvertently pist off several people that were either bidding or watching the lot...

gabeesh?

you went on to say...

"It does, however, disprove the notion that outing an auction will definitely affect the outcome...If you disagree, that means you believe that outing an auction always effects the outcome"

"definitely"..."always"..."absolutely"...

are you sure you want to use these strong words?

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Posted By: Matt

MVSYNC - if you read what I wrote, I said it disproves the use of the word definitely and always.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i didn't interpret it that way.

no biggie, Scot's happy, so let's move on...

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Matt,
I just saw that you edited and re wrote the whole top of the post. The origional question you first posted makes a big difference in what is now being talked about here. I think you should put back the origional post.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

MVSNYC,
I didnt interpret it that way either!