A Trend? Or is This the Way the Board has Become?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

The departure of posters with knowledge of particular sets is being replaced by knowledge of people about graded cards and card restoration. I would take Kevin over one of these guys anyday. All kinds of new posters with knowledge about graded cards. Doesn't mean I am right--just means that there is room for all kinds of posts relating to pre-war cards.Graded and non-graded. This is the way the hobby is going. Posts related to graded-cards are still less than 50% of all posts so there is plenty of room for expansion. We are just scratching the surface of what to talk about regarding graded cards and issues surrounding them.

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Posted By: John S

Jim,

While grading certainly has a place in the hobby (and as part of the discussion on this board) I do not believe that it should be the primary focus. I personally place little weight in the population reports as a means to assess relative abundance/rarity. Overtime as more re-submissions, crack-outs, and crossovers occur the information contained in the pop reports will continue to lose validity. I would much rather learn about the cards, not the plastic that surrounds them.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

John. Thats your right(to place little weight). I think pop reports are a great barometer of relative scarcity. But I am talking about all aspects of graded cards when I say we have just scratched the surface.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted Z. and Jim C. are different personalities and collect in entirely different ways, but each is passionate about his area of the hobby. So I think the best solution here is tolerance towards how someone else collects. Jim hasn't found a better way, nor has Ted. I'll call it a draw.

But I think it might be time to start a thread on the role of O/T posting, and maybe we can come to a better mutual understanding. Clearly it's an issue that is concerning enough people.

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Posted By: Jake

Accusation? Hardly, simply speaking what others who come to the board think. People who have a great amount of knowledge on pre-war cards. People who have great collections. They don't post here, simply lurk and try to find something worthwhile in between the garbage. Sometimes they buy/sell but that's about it. They see what goes on here and feel no need to be part of a message board titled "Net 54 Vintage Baseball Card Forum" that is riddled with hedge fund/Joe Torre/Colorado Rockies threads.

It seems many of these "Old Timers" have already left. Yet many on here blame the "new" people and many O/T threads, many of which are created by veterans of this board.

Maybe I read your post wrong. I am not for O/T threads. I think they are useless and the more they pop up, the more we will see. Whether it's created by a veteran of the board or a one week participant.

You, Ted Z. I have learned the most from. You are probably one of the few who stick to the purpose of the board. I only ask that maybe some more 207 threads pop up?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Exactly what I am saying. There are graded cards and ungraded cards. Ted collects ungraded-great, talk about them. I collect graded-great, I will talk about them. I think Al posted something like this in more detail recently.

I agree with you on O/T posts they should be looked at more carefully. Stuff like the Colorado Rockies posts etc. However the hedge fund post is related to vintage cards and was one of the most interesting on the board in some time.

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Posted By: barrysloate

The hedge fund thread kind of straddled the on/off topic line. It dealt with one aspect of vintage cards- that is their investment potential. On the other hand, the number of collectors on this board who care about the relationship between hedge funds and baseball cards they will never be able to afford is minimal. Nevertheless, it wasn't technically off topic.

This thread has brought to my attention that these O/T posts are bothering more people than I had imagined. I enjoy the digressions and I am fully aware that while I do post substantively, I likewise jump the ship on a regular basis. I guess it's a reflection of my personality. If you know me, you will see me sometimes being very serious, and other times I'm completely off the wall.

But I do think today we should devote some time to a discussion about this. So far so many people have come on the thread to complain about O/T (and obviously many others who agree haven't) that it needs to be addressed.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

You say the hedge fund topic straddles the line(I disagree) but indicate its of limited interest. Quite the contrary. The thread goes to 100 posts and the threads about an oddball set drift to page 5 with nary a response. This thread shows that this is exactly the kind of thread that posters do care about the most.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Jake, here is a challenge I present to you or anyone else that cares to take it on:

Please show us ONE POST, just one, where some someone here was attacked (doesn't even have to be me) for asking vintage baseball card related question.

I posed this challenge numerous times and no one has been able to produce any real evidence. It's like Bigfoot, people swear it exists, but no one can offer an real proof.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Jim, that thread is also proof that people will chime in on a topic they know little about, yet they won't chime in on a card question. Go figure shrug

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- it did get a lot of responses at that. I guess I just felt its scope was narrow.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jay,

I agree.

Glad you are back--you are a wealth of knowledge. Whatever board you share it on someone will benefit.

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Posted By: Alan

Jay - of course, my response on this posting last night was in jest

Alan

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Posted By: leon

Jake,
Not sure how long you have been on the board or lurking but I don't see the rules about off topic stuff changing. I suggest you read the rules. If you don't like them that is your choice. The more often someone posts the more they are entitled (in my opinion) to do an off topic post. It is a reward for being a part of the community and helps us get to know each other. If you don't like it...that's ok. As far as off topic stuff running people off I will throw a BS flag on that. There are plenty of good threads to join in about what the focus is. As far as anyone leaving because they get attacked I will also throw a BS flag on that. As my good friend Jay B just said....show me one thread where someone got attacked for talking about the focus of this board.

Lee B- you mentioned several folks that don't post much anymore. I doubt it's because they want to but won't for fear of anything or because this has turned into a bad place. Pete C doesn't post much (he has a few times) as he is with Mastro and it's probably better for him not to. He and I have talked about it often. He still reads the board quite a bit. Bill C. doesn't post too much but does when he has something to chime in about. Elliot- same way. Andy Baran is all but out of collecting baseball. I am not sure he's a whole lot into collecting at all right now but is still a good friend. Nothing "scared" him away or drove him away. Do a lot of folks hate the bickering? Sure, but it is what it is and I don't think it's been that bad lately. I get slammed when it happens and I get slammed if I censor it. I just make judgement calls...right or wrong, on allowing it. It sort of goes in spurts too. I feel we still have pretty much the same breadth of knowledge as we always have....plus some and minus some others. It's too bad some folks leave but they do for a variety of reasons and my intuition tells me it's mostly not because of anything to do with the board itself it's more a statement of what they are doing in their lives. I know if I didn't run the board I would take some time off every once and a while. It's not a bad thing to do.....regards

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Posted By: Joann

Look at it this way, with me as the star example. I don't have the breadth and depth of knowledge of those that used to post here regularly and some of those that still do. So would it be more harmful to this board to lose 90% of the people that know more than me, or 90% of the people that know the same as me or less? I think that pretty much says it all.

As to related-topic posts about hobby issues (graded cards, auction house practices, etc) I tend to think they are okay. They give people like me a chance to participate - maybe long enough to acquire true card knowledge. Also, they do provide some volume and heartbeat to the board where pure card topics don't, or are too static.

To me, it's a spectrum, really. I tend to think of the topics (in order of being truly on topic to being truly off topic) as:

Vintage cards
Vintage card hobby issues
Vintage baseball (players, teams, etc)
Baseball
Sports
All other topics

Most of the time should be spent in the top two, with increasingly fewer posts as you go down the list and a large drop-off between topics 2 and 3.

And as to OT, I really like Leon's rule and think it works great in general. Take Jim C's recent steroid post. He contributes regularly here to the first two topics above, and I don't think I've ever once seen him start an OT thread. It's a great example of how Leon's rules should work and be used responsibly. So the policy is good, but we all need to be more mindful of it and where on the continuum a topic falls before starting it. We shouldn't make Leon ride herd all the time on it.

And I absolutely think that such OT leeway should go to regular posters and not new people. People "earn" the right to post OT by making ongoing contributions to the core topics. How can that not be fair and promote the interest and focus of the board? It makes perfect sense to me.

J

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Posted By: Anonymous

Please show us ONE POST, just one, where some someone here was attacked (doesn't even have to be me) for asking vintage baseball card related question.
================================================== ========================

What, are you putting words into my mouth now? When did I ever say someone was attacked? It's the general attitude some of the posters on here present to others.

In the words of some people when a poster asks about cards, "Go do a search for it. It's been discussed before."

I love how some of you only take one small aspect of anything I've said and argue that, never anything relating to the ridiculous O/T threads that so many complain about, yet start themselves and expect them to go away.

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Posted By: JakeBushi

Jake,
Not sure how long you have been on the board or lurking but I don't see the rules about off topic stuff changing. I suggest you read the rules. If you don't like them that is your choice. The more often someone posts the more they are entitled (in my opinion) to do an off topic post. It is a reward for being a part of the community and helps us get to know each other. If you don't like it...that's ok. As far as off topic stuff running people off I will throw a BS flag on that. There are plenty of good threads to join in about what the focus is. As far as anyone leaving because they get attacked I will also throw a BS flag on that. As my good friend Jay B just said....show me one thread where someone got attacked for talking about the focus of this board.
================================================== =======================

So then when a good number of the regulars say that new people posting O/T threads keeps the "old timers" away, you'd be saying that is BS as well. If the O/T threads keep old timers away, as many appear think happens, I highly doubt the people check to see who makes the O/T thread before deciding if it's alright or not. It will be annoying either way. If a new person comes to the board, I can say with certainty that a good number are not going to read the "rules". So, they see O/T threads from regulars and thus think it's alright. Maybe you should have some sort of agreement that people check off before they can actually post on here.

And I'll pose the same question that I just asked Jay B. WHERE did I say people were attacked? Attacked and being treated disrespectfully are two totally different things. And as I said to Jay and now to you that I have received a couple of times in the past when posting about pre war cards, "Go do a search, it's been talked about before."

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JAKE

I first posted on Net54 in 2005 (so I'm not a "newbie" and I not an "oldie"). And, at every Philly Show since then, I have had the pleasure
of meeting a lot of Net54ers that have come to my booth. Most are the members that post frequently. Also, at each show approx. 12 "readers"
(hate the term lurkers) visit with me. They range in all ages and most will engage in long conversations on vintage BB cards or threads on
Net54. At the this recent Reading Show two readers stayed at my booth for at least an hour each. One talking about 19th Century cards
and the other on T-cards. It was obvious from our discussions that both these guys had some fantastic collections and had
sophisticated knowledge thereof.

I always ask readers why they do not post, especially guys like these two who can provide some meaningful and informative expertise to us.
I get a variety of responses.....from...."I select the substantive threads and read them and enjoy them and I will email the poster" (I do receive
occasional emails as such, on threads I have posted). To...."It sometimes gets too "hairy" on the board with all that controversy, and I do not
want to get involved in it".

But, I have never, ever heard the "excuse" for not posting that you claim. Are you talking about an anecdotal one (or two) ? I have met approx. 80
different readers of Net54, either at shows or via emails these past two years and never such a complaint. I am really very skeptical of what you are
claiming.

TED Z

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Jake,

Thanks for clearing up your initial post. To me you have a valid point about newbie seeing O/T and thinking it is OK. Your statement at the end of your first post about "out with the out int with the new" is the one that really disturbed me and I pointed that out.

As far as the O/T stuff I believe it was hashed over about 2 months ago and never seemed to solve anything thing it even seemed to get worse because of one poster. I don't know what else can be done without Leon's intervention of deleting the threads. It would be great if posters and responders would think before doing so but that does not seem to happen enough.

Jim, as far as popular threads, I go back to quantity over quality. THe quality gets hidden with too much quantity.

Lee

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Posted By: JakeBushi

Just as you are skeptical of what other people have told me at card shows (dealers) I can easily say the same of what people have told you. That's just how the world goes, unless we were with each other at the given time, neither of us can prove a thing. However, I did in fact meet a couple of people who have told me this. Not that they get attacked, simply spoken to (saying typed to sounded strange) as if they were being spoken down to, disrespected, for no reason at all.

Bottom line is, O/T threads will never go away. If they are allowed, other people will come onto the board and think it's alright because others do it. That's how life is in general.

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Posted By: Bob

Perhaps the easiest way to read the posts is to go to the index (front) page and just skip the topics you are disinterested in. I do think the card question posts deserve to be answered, especially when someone new here asks the question. I try my best to always chime in but if the question pertains to pre-1900 or Cogan Chips or strip cards or some set I have limited (if any) knowledge of, I'd like to think someone ask will chip in.
Also I wish someone could define "old-timers," does that refer to guys and gals who have been here on this board for a long time, collectors over 50 years old, collectors with 25+ years in the hobby, or what? There are collectors here (and lurkers) who have been in the hobby since the 80's but are in their 30's, are they considered "old-timers?"

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Posted By: E, Daniel

No doubt at all what Lee is saying is true, there is less meat to many of the card threads and fewer of the hobbyists who used to give opinion now do.
Its hard to see friends and people you admire not participate, there was an established feel you could count on and relate to - daunting but to be respected and observed carefully before any real soul baring.

But, as Joann said so nicely: "They give people like me a chance to participate - maybe long enough to acquire true card knowledge."

I mean, isn't that the larger question. Sure its nice to be surrounded by just the people you have friendships with, admire alot, but those people leave the hobby, move, lose interest, and frankly - die, and if you haven't allowed and encouraged new participants then you're left with nothing.
If we were to set hard and fast rules that brought old time posters back AT the expense of newer members, do we get a guarantee those seriously experienced people will stick around long term, post regularly with content that's valuable to us all, not go off and start their own board or simply take up a new hobby?

Me, I liked the tenor of the board a few years back when I came here. It was robust and intellectual and not a little intimidating. I spent many a day nervously checking to see responses to my posts, almost too nervous in case I got chewed out to even scroll the threads, and some posters definitely made the experience less than it might have been.

I don't know whether I like the new board as much in terms of material discussed, but when the new tides come in that's what you get. Renewal, removal of some things that had been there before, and the possibility of a treasure being deposited before your eyes.
If we don't encourage it, then where do the next Ted Z's come from and how will we know their worth without making this a welcoming place. The guy/gal that comes on here originally and posts on a grading thread - thereby recieving Ted's total dismissal - may in fact have the only complete set of tangos complete with advertising and packaging, passed down through his family together with stories hitherto unknown in the hobby. And we get a chance to scare him away by pissing on his first chosen post, or encourage him to stick around and share more of what he knows.

Lee's lament to me sounds more of a despair at having lost control of the spirit of the place, that enough of his friends have left that as a group it has become almost impossible to set some posters in their place and make THEM change to meet the feel of the board. I understand it, indeed I can't believe the reckless feckless nature of a couple members who have assumed equal ownership of this board regardless of how little time and content they've added to it.
But who am I to remind them of the board standard flying at the title page. I only just got here too in the scheme of things.



Daniel

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think the board has always been considerate and welcoming to first time posters. I know it can be intimidating to make one's first post because nobody wants to look silly. But we've always gone out of our way to make newbies feel at home, and have always encouraged them to stick around.

It's the chronic off-topic posters, together with those who can get a bit combative, that experience the most trouble and often leave. But the fact that people come and go is not unusual. There is a small group of hard core posters that have participated on a near daily basis for several years. So I'm not sure the fact that some people are leaving is a sign that something is wrong.

Another important point is that threads that ask a specific question about vintage cards, for example: which colors in E94 are most difficult?, don't need dozens of responses. Once a couple of E94 experts have responded the question has been answered. But when a provocative topic is posed that demands someone's opinion, it's not surprising if it approaches or surpasses 100 posts, because each person has something unique to add to the discussion.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

To elaborate a little more on Barry's thought of the E94 thread. I think it is all right to ask another question within that post that would be tied to the E94 without hijacking the thread. That is how many good threads get extended and are more enriching.

I would like to thank Leon for stepping in on the latest irrelevant thread. I hope he gets it by now. Now the rest of us just need not respond and it will go away.

This place is a resource that can not be found elsewhere and I would hate to see it go to the crapper.

Lee

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hey Lee- how do you do the frowning face? I can do the smiley and the blinking, but forgot how to do the other one. Thanks.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I would also like to add that after the initial confusion of his first post, I think that Jake did a nice job of giving the "newbie" side of entering the forum and it's current guidelines.

Lee

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Posted By: LetsGoBucs

As an occasional reader and less occasional poster that considers baseball cards a hobby and something to be enjoyed, I'd say that there isn't anything wrong with some periods of time where there aren't as many posts "true" to the core of the cards.

You can only ask so many questions about your favorite set and no need to repeat just for the sake of repeating. Yes sometimes there might be a lack of replies to a question - but if you don't know the answer to a question regarding the scarcity of E94 colors that doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to enjoy your hobby. Not everyone pursues their hobby on an everyday basis.

Its easier to participate in posts that aren't so specific - thats why there are more replies (IMO). Does there need to be a balance - yes otherwise it becomes a different board. But personally I still see this as a vintage baseball card forum.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

"Not everyone pursues their hobby on an everyday basis".
Who don't vant to wear de ribbin?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Gil, that's funny. One of my favorite episodes ever.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

It seems like there is a fair number of response that imply if the board is quite they there must be something posted to keep it active.

What is wrong with a quite board?

To me this would be a good time for a infrequent poster to ask those card questions they don't seem to want to ask.

Lee

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Posted By: barrysloate

Those are the two street toughs who steal Elaine's armoire.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Sorry Lee,

I did not intend to sidetrack this conversation with silliness for long.
Recently I have come to believe that the new thinking/new individuals are the future here; and those lamenting that are chiefly the old timers.
In this thread, how many of the relative newcomers have voiced a preference for a technical, insightful bolstering of the group, by convincing the old timers to stay?
If anything, the main thrust appears to me to be in favor of a more peaceful, social group with emphasis on general factors associated with card collecting; as opposed to the previous in depth disection of sets, extreme analysis of dates of issuance, and other investigations which address considerations of importance to relatively few.

The previous regime, independent of its technical prowess and accomplishments, were not a peaceful bunch. And reports always were that the general demeanor was intimidating to many. As Jake aptly points out, it may be possible to draw upon existing unheard from alternate experts, if there is less controversy.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Silent knowledge isn't any better than no knowledge at all. Claims of knowledgeable lurkers are about as valid as those of Bigfoot sightings until proven otherwise.

As Joan wisely pointed, losing 90% of the old timers and their knowledge is far worse than losing 90% of the newcomers and their knowledge.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Joann

In the most supreme irony imaginable, the issues of focus, gravity of the board, influence of its members, and retention of the knowledge base may very well be resolved by ..... advertisers!

I don't remember the numbers, but let's say that Leon's latest figures for daily hits indicate that there are 2000 unique IP's and 20K hits per day.

None of the advertisers is paying for just the number of eyes-on. Heck, they could get a lot more than 2K per day by advertising on the Mary Kate and Ashley Fan Site. hee.

The big advertising draw was the concentration here of who those eyes belong to. As has been said many times, there is not a more centralized and dense nexus of hobby knowledge and influence existing anywhere. This board has always been it. That's why the advertisers pestered Leon forever to allow ads.

So what happens if this becomes a general topic board? Or at least less focused on vintage cards? We will, without a doubt, lose the heavy hitters and enthusiasts that give the board its hobby influence and make it desireable to advertisers.

But won't other advertisers come in anyways? Advertisers whose audience is more in line with the makeup of the "new board"? I don't know. To be honest, I'm not sure that 2000 sets of eyes are enough for folks like Topps and whoever makes toploaders to bother with.

But what about the cadre of expert lurkers who will fill the void? I don't know that either. Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure I'd want to take that leap and find out.

So ... it matters in more ways than one who comes, who stays and who goes, and whether the seemingly new thinking that the board is "okay" even if it is more general interest is correct.

Interesting thing I just thought about tonight. On principle, I absolutely am against advertiser influence of content, no matter what. But Lordy this does complicate it for me.

Joann

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Posted By: Larry

I find it humorous when the people who bemoan the loss of veteran posters are the same ones who contributed to their hasty exit.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Larry can we please have some clarification to your accusations, other than my brother who really has more people in his corner than people like to think. Who has responded that you think have driven these "old timers" away.

That is a broad accusation that I can make in the total other direction.

Lee

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Posted By: Joann

Dang Lee. I thought he was talking about me, and was just sitting here trying to think of what I may have done or been doing to drive away some of the long-standing board members.

Joann

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Posted By: DMcD

Joann: You are a girl. I like that in a person.

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Posted By: Larry

I wish there were more female posters. You can tell that Joann is a good person and knowledgable too.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Joan, you drive people away because girl have kooties. This is supposed to be like the He-man Woman Haters Club :-p

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Larry, care to answer my question or just make the generalization and not back it up?

lee

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Posted By: leon

I believe we will need to know who you are to get into this kind of conversation, per the forum rules. Nothing personal...I am not saying I agree or disagree with you but you need to be well known to the board or put your full name out here to make these kinds of comments..... please email me privately too...take care...

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Posted By: DMcD

Lee: Could not reply via e-mail because I am in a motel in Los Angeles and Outlook Express isn't working. Am able to post to N54 however so here goes . . . Yes, the statue is in Cooperstown. There is a garden on the left side of the HOF (as you face it) where there are statues of the lady batter, Satchel Paige in extreme wind-up, and the battery of Podres and Campanella. And Dustin Pedroia just parked one over the Green Monster YAY! Holy Christ Youkilis!!

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Posted By: Larry Haven

Leon, I've posted my full name more than once in the past. My login is my name. I won't bother to send you an email. So go ahead and block me, even though I have a different IP address everytime I login. It won't matter anyway, as this is my last post here ever. I'll still be on eBay competing against everyone here though...bye!

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Larry Fritsch I think. At least it seemed that way in the thread the other day talking with the SCDAuthentic grader........JMO.......

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Posted By: Jim VB

Larry,

Why the attitude? All Leon asked for was a confirmation of your name or an email address. He's asked that of everyone on the board. He really wasn't singling you out.

If you have a strong opinion, you should not have a problem with that.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1191605542/Larry+Fritsch+Collection

verbiage here makes it seem like it's Larry Fritsch......

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Posted By: Andrew S.

Tom, I never considered that Larry H. was in fact Mr. Fritsch, but have always strongly suspected that another poster named George Drerer who used to post here was. He is posting in other forums right now and have even seen him post in the hockey forum and other hobby forums on CU & on Beckett. How else could he possibly know more than the Canadians about hockey cards? The guy simply has too much knowledge across the board in all subjects not to be somebody noteworthy IMO.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Larry Fritsch is Peter Chao?

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Posted By: Andrew S.

I always thought that Peter Chao was really Mr. Mint.