Negro League Postcard on E-Bay

[bcbgcbrcb]

I thought my $4K max bid on e-bay for this postcard would be good enough with room to spare. Guess I was wrong, although the next highest bidder after me was at $1,500...........

[Harford20]

I was watching this one closely until it passed the $350 mark a day or two ago. My budget wasnt going to allow much more right now. $4049, ouch!!!
I was WAY OFF.

What was the factor/player/rarity that pushed this postcard so high?
Dave

[Runscott]

…the non-Cuban expert departs

[btcarfagno]

Is that Alejandro Oms seated second from left?

Tom C

[sbfinley]

I thought someone might pick up a deal with the incorrect listing and description. Then it was started and hovered between $100 and $350 for several days and I began to think someone might pick up a steal. $4k is amazing. Am I correct (my negro leagues knowledge is not very strong) in believing this predates Martin Dihigo's generally accepted RC? The 1927-28 Mallorquina is considered his RC, but I think this is from 1925-1927 as Mike Herrera would be present in a 1928 photo. (Also am I correct ID'ing the second from the right on the back row as Dihigo? - Like I said, not very knowledgeable.) Other I think I identified are:

Isadro Fabre - Bottom Far Left

and

Top L/R: ?? – Juanelo Mirabal - ?? - ?? – Jose Maria Fernandez – Bernardo Baro – Martin Dihigo – Oscar Levis

[chipperhank44]

I saw it the first day it was posted, nearly freaked out when I saw $100 thinking it was a buy it now. Realized it was an auction and knew it was going to get expensive. Wasn't thinking 4K expensive though! Congrats to the winner, great PC!

[mannybb24]

It's a great postcard but what makes it special is it's from Martin Dihigo's first couple of years of playing professional ball.
I am not 100% on exact year but my guess is 1923 by looking at the rest of the team, which makes Dihigo 18-19 years old. His first year was 1922.

The 3rd guy from the top left is not a superstar pitcher, it's actually Champeon Mesa.
Some other notables on the photo; superstar Alejandro Oms, Fabre, Baro, Levis, Mirabal, Fernandez among others.

Fantastic postcard, congrats goes out to the winner.

Steve

[mannybb24]

No Tom, Oms is the one standing in the middle with his arms around Pablo Mesa and JM Fernandez.

I've never seen a photo where Oms is smiling and this one is no different.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by mannybb24

No Tom, Oms is the one standing in the middle with his arms around Pablo Mesa and JM Fernandez.

I've never seen a photo where Oms is smiling and this one is no different.

That would have been my next guess. He is younger here than most of the images I have seen....his face doesn't look as weathered and drawn as I remember. I figured the guy seated with the blurred face was a more likely candidate.

Tom C

[Runscott]

I'll stay out of this one at this point, but I thought the undivided back dated this to pre-1910.

[packs]

Back was divided with correspondence on one side and address on the other. It would only have address if undivided.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I'll stay out of this one at this point, but I thought the undivided back dated this to pre-1910.

Bottom left is without a doubt Isidro Fabre so the image has to be 1921 at it's earliest IMO.

Amazing PC, strong historical significance, but $4K, Wow!

[Runscott]

…..

[Runscott]

I don't get it, but okay

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

[packs]

It lists Correspondence on one side and Address on the other. If it was pre-divided it would just list Address because the correspondence would need to appear on the front of the postcard. It's just missing the line but would still be considered divided if I'm not mistaken.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by packs

It lists Correspondence on one side and Address on the other. If it was pre-divided it would just list Address because the correspondence would need to appear on the front of the postcard. It's just missing the line but would still be considered divided if I'm not mistaken.

Okay, thanks.

[Bicem]

Explained perfectly Packs.

4k doesn't surprise me. How do you determine a good or fair price on something so rare and significant? We'll probably never see another.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Have to run out right now but I believe it is the 1927 Cubans team. More later......

[bcbgcbrcb]

Funny, the only way that I spotted the postcard on e-bay was because another item was listed recently as a 1900 Cuban Baseball........... and it did not sell so I was checking to see if the seller relisted it or not and came across this postcard. When I saw how the seller listed it, I figured it would be an easy win at a bargain price. Guess I was wrong on both accounts, huh?

[ElCabron]

It could be as early as 1922. I would guess it's either 1922 or 1923. Amazing piece. Interesting bid history on this one. Looks like the underbidder has had 92 bid retractions just in the past 6 months. Were you the underbidder, Phil?

-Ryan

[bcbgcbrcb]

Yup, I think I mentioned that in my first post, Ryan, that there were only two bidders above $1,500 and I bid $4,000 and did not win it.

Your objective is obviously to point out past bid retractions which have no impact on this discussion, unless a Net 54 member was the seller and, even if so, I did not retract my bid on this item so it has no bearing on the subject.

[mannybb24]

I had the $1500 bid

[Exhibitman]

92 bid retractions? I didn't think you could do that.

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Yup, I think I mentioned that in my first post, Ryan, that there were only two bidders above $1,500 and I bid $4,000 and did not win it.

Your objective is obviously to point out past bid retractions which have no impact on this discussion, unless a Net 54 member was the seller and, even if so, I did not retract my bid on this item so it has no bearing on the subject.

Is it a bidding strategy?

[bcbgcbrcb]

C'mon guys, I can't divulge all of my secrets, then everyone would do it..........

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Yup, I think I mentioned that in my first post, Ryan, that there were only two bidders above $1,500 and I bid $4,000 and did not win it.

Your objective is obviously to point out past bid retractions which have no impact on this discussion, unless a Net 54 member was the seller and, even if so, I did not retract my bid on this item so it has no bearing on the subject.

Actually, my main objective was to offer some insight on the possible dating of this incredible item, since I'm somewhat familiar with the subject matter and players that have been identified (and misidentified). I did think the bid history was interesting, which I noticed right when the auction ended. I thought it was very strange that the next highest bid was $3,999.99. I thought it might have been a shill bid, so I looked at the bid history of the underbidder. $3,999.999 didn't seem like an amount someone would bid if they were trying to win an auction. More like they were trying set a reserve, or more accurately, shill. I didn't realize that was you at the time. Frankly, I'm surprised to find out about all your bid retractions, but I'm glad to hear that all the bids on this particular item were legit. It's certainly worth the amount it sold for, in my opinion.

-Ryan

[Bicem]

I must know this secret bid retraction and odd max bid strategy.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Here is a team photo known to be the 1922 Cuban Stars, jerseys and pants are similar to those on the e-bay postcard, maybe even the same, but socks are different and no Dihigo pictured. I have seen conflicting info on whether Dihigo played for the Cuban Stars in 1922, rosters and stats do not show him there but many of the biographies and narratives that I have read do mention him playing for the Cuban Stars in 1922.

Anyway, just curious, Ryan, how did you come up with the 1923 date as opposed to the other years mentioned. I researched a couple of guys like Teran and Perez and Lopez, who were listed on the '23 roster, but I don't see them in the photo. Who are the remaining couple of ID's that are missing and probably the ones that solve the puzzle?

[clydepepper]

I am so impressed with the amount of information you guys have been able to collect via thorough research! I've always been too intimidated lack of 'formal' record-keeping with regards to Negro and Cuban League play to consider studying them.

Max Kudos to all participating in this thread! - Very informative.

It sure would have been fun just to see even one of their games...

Barnstorming Dreams...that must have been fun.

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Anyway, just curious, Ryan, how did you come up with the 1923 date as opposed to the other years mentioned. I researched a couple of guys like Teran and Perez and Lopez, who were listed on the '23 roster, but I don't see them in the photo. Who are the remaining couple of ID's that are missing and probably the ones that solve the puzzle?

Pretty sure that's Perez, btw, front row, far right.

-Ryan

[mannybb24]

Yes, good one Ryan, that's gotta be Pepin Perez, I didn't think of him.

Blowing up the image on my Ipad, the blurry guy in the middle looks more and more like Portuondo but that's just me.

[WillowGrove]

Great info guys. Phil, Jason, Ryan in particular. I was watching this one but with the combination of the old PC back with 1920's style uni's I was already out-matched. And I love research. Then add in that I couldn't properly ID HOF Dihigo and I was done.

Thanks for giving me this thread as an answer key guys!

[Al C.risafulli]

Amazing, amazing piece. Congrats to the winner.

-Al

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by WillowGrove

Great info guys. Phil, Jason, Ryan in particular. I was watching this one but with the combination of the old PC back with 1920's style uni's I was already out-matched. And I love research. Then add in that I couldn't properly ID HOF Dihigo and I was done.

Thanks for giving me this thread as an answer key guys!

You could have had inverse-id skills like me - then you would have bid thinking you were trying to get something entirely different

[bcbgcbrcb]

Since so many are interested in my e-bay bidding history and, more specifically, bid retraction history, let me explain what's going on so that everyone can rest assured that there is no profit motive or "secret strategy" behind it.

First of all, I can assure everyone that I have never retracted a bid on a baseball memorabilia item as these are the primary focus of my collecting interests and many times, significant sums of money are involved. Also, I do not take part in shilling or helping other sellers alter auction results and/or prices.

As a side little hobby, some of you may know that I have started dabbling in ice cream collectibles, which many times sell for a $1,00, $5,00, $10.00, etc. and often times, the cost of shipping exceeds the item price. In order to keep this facet of my collecting interest cost effective, I usually try to buy multiple e-bay items from the same seller to minimize the effect on shipping charges. While doing this, many times I lose out on the one or two items that were my main interest and decide that I would rather pass on the remaining items. These situations account for all of my bid retractions except for a couple of times where I entered wrong amounts and go back and make the corrections immediately.

My practice is probably not the best way of handling the scenario and, in the future, I might just use the "watched items" feature more extensively when interested in multiple items from the same seller.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Since so many are interested in my e-bay bidding history and, more specifically, bid retraction history, let me explain what's going on so that everyone can rest assured that there is no profit motive or "secret strategy" behind it.

First of all, I can assure everyone that I have never retracted a bid on a baseball memorabilia item as these are the primary focus of my collecting interests and many times, significant sums of money are involved. Also, I do not take part in shilling or helping other sellers alter auction results and/or prices.

As a side little hobby, some of you may know that I have started dabbling in ice cream collectibles, which many times sell for a $1,00, $5,00, $10.00, etc. and often times, the cost of shipping exceeds the item price. In order to keep this facet of my collecting interest cost effective, I usually try to buy multiple e-bay items from the same seller to minimize the effect on shipping charges. While doing this, many times I lose out on the one or two items that were my main interest and decide that I would rather pass on the remaining items. These situations account for all of my bid retractions except for a couple of times where I entered wrong amounts and go back and make the corrections immediately.

My practice is probably not the best way of handling the scenario and, in the future, I might just use the "watched items" feature more extensively when interested in multiple items from the same seller.

Wow...that is not cool. I make a good portion of my living on ebay (I also own a vintage toy store) and bidders like that really piss me off. Your bid may make the next bidder move on if it's an item that normally only sells for the opening price.

Out of curiosity what excuse do you give when you retract your bid? Because I've never heard the "I got outbid on your other auction and I was trying to bundle to save on shipping" excuse.

[Bicem]

What do Ben and Jerry's rookies go for?

Thanks for explaining Phil.

[Spartan]

I think I'm throwing this comment out unncessarily or just didn't bother carefully reading all the posts on the bid history... but it's not like the item bid consistently up to $4050. You usually see the enormous jump when two people SNIPE bid and SOMEBODY gets 'hung' ... typically may also involve the seller not getting paid, by either bidder... and it gets relisted. Not saying that either bidder here would not be good for payment, but it sure would have been nice had the auction ended for them below $2000, which is what it was on pace to do. Nothing worse than a last second $2,500 BUMP

[Runscott]

If Phil is buying from the guys he is retracting bids from, and every single one of them has been contacred and is okay with it, I don't see the damage.
I have never had anyone contact me to explain a retraction, and when I spot one I normally put them on my blocked bidder list.

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

[Fred]

Vomit....

[Fred]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Early-1...p2047675.l2557

[Shoeless Moe]

cough: "bullsh-t"

[ElCabron]

I'm not a fan of all the bid retractions, but I think it's important to point out that nothing like that happened for this particular auction. All of the bids were real. In fact, Phil has said that he only does that for the ice cream collectibles and not baseball items. Phil started the thread, so that's the only reason all of this came up in the first place, but before he gets completely thrown under the bus for his questionable eBay bidding tactics, keep in mind that we're not talking about shill bidding or anything even close to rising to that level. Is it okay? Not in my opinion. But again, I don't buy or sell ice cream memorabilia. On the ice cream memorabilia forum, everyone can be pissed. But I've done numerous deals with Phil and not one has been the least bit shady or questionable. If any other board members have had negative dealings with him or know of him retracting bids on baseball cards or memorabilia, by all means let us know. But he already explained why he does it, and, more importantly, that he doesn't do it on the stuff that relates to this forum. Don't mistake this for me condoning bid retractions because I've never done it and I don't think it's okay to do. But half of the guys now judging Phil for retracting some bids on ice cream memorabilia probably still bid with Legendary or do business with guys like JP Cohen and other quality characters within the hobby.

-Ryan