Poll: Should a traced over signature get a COA?

[RichardSimon]

There are traced over signatures in the hobby which have been issued COA's. It is a common practice.
The COA does state that the signature has been traced over.
I have my own negative opinion about this practice, in my opinion, once a signature is traced over it is no longer the original signature, but I am curious about the board members opinions.

[slidekellyslide]

Nope..it's wrecked in my opinion. Is a painting still an original painting if the entire thing is painted over?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Nope..it's wrecked in my opinion. Is a painting still an original painting if the entire thing is painted over?

I guess if it were 100% traced over and no remnants of the original autograph exist, then I understand this point. My thought is it would be a crudely traced over autograph where much of the underlying one can be seen. Like it was very light and someone didn't do it to deceive but because they thought it would look better.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Nope..it's wrecked in my opinion. Is a painting still an original painting if the entire thing is painted over?

Actually yes it is. The original painting is still there under the new one. And a good art restorer can totally remove the newer painting or the newer poorly done restoration. Over painting older paintings was once fairly common.

I don't recall the details, but there's at least one case of a painting by one famous artist painted over one by another famous artist. The decision was which one would they save.

It may make for a crummy autograph, but the original is there under the tracing over. I think as long as it's noted on the coa/loa and always described as traced over it's ok. Not desirable, but ok.

Steve B

Anyone have an auto where one player signed completely over another?

[drc]

For me it comes down to is the description on the COA accurate.

There's a difference between the questions of is it an autograph and is the certificate accurate in its description. For example, I don't terribly mind if PSA grades a reprint as long as they label it as a reprint. The label is accurate.

And, by the way, I do see the point that a traced over autograph (where the behind autograph is no longer seen) is not the player's autograph. I'm not disputing that sentiment.

[Leon]

Actually, after a little more thought, and as of what I have read so far, I don't have an issue with any COA'd autograph being sold as what it really is. If someone wants to pay me $5 for a dollar bill I take out of my wallet, and I am not being dishonest and selling it as a 1 dollar bill with my handwritten COA that it is straight from my wallet, then why can't someone spend their 5 bucks on it if they want to? No one is being dishonest and no one is forcing anyone to do anything. Ya'll might recall a Frankencard Just So Burkett....it was only the middle of a card with the whole outside and all lettering taken from another Just So actress card and the Burkett was carefully glued in the middle of it. If I recall correctly it was slabbed as such and still brought 5k-10k in auction. Just some food for thought. AS I said I don't really collect autographs but this question also easily pertains to other collectibles too, in some respects.

[Lordstan]

If an autograph is traced over, it is obscured at least in part.
How does one give an opinion on the authenticity of the underlying item, whether it is painting or autograph, if one can't see it?

I think the wording is the key. If TPA's gave out letters of opinion it would be different. It could say "In our opinion, this is an original autograph that was traced over at a later date". Unfortunately they give "Certificates of Authenticity". You can't say something is authentic if it isn't visible. You can call it semantics if you want, but it's still true.

Would any professional art dealer/appraiser give you an offical letter stating that the painting underneath is a real Van Gogh or would they states it looks like a Van Gogh pending closer inspection after restoration. What happens if they remove the newer painting and the older one isn't real? Not meant sarcastic. I'm just asking.

Also, I think the autograph scenario is different as well in that currently there is no way to remove the newer ink from the top of the old ink.

Mark

[Lordstan]

Leon,
I think your comparison is different.
To me, the comparison of the franked card would be more like if someone took the "Babe" from one sig and the "Ruth" from another and taped them together. If both are real, then I have no problem with someone deciding that's what they want for whatever their reason is.
You can see both parts of the franken card and the franken Ruth(my example), but you can't see the original ink of the underlying auto. How can anyone say it real?
Suppose someone could remove the ink. What if the original is fake as well?
How plausible is this scenario?
Suppose a father gets Ruth's auto on a ball. The pen is weak so he goes over with his pen at home. Later the kid enhances the auto because it's fading. Now we have a trace on trace.

[thetruthisoutthere]

I had to vote "No." Once an autograph has been been traced then it has been "altered" and "tainted."

[mr2686]

Nope. Null and void in my opinion.

[Mr. Zipper]

Nope. The ink at the top was not applied by the original signer. It's not an original signature.

[novakjr]

No COA...However, I would make an exception for an extremely rare autograph, as long as the tracing is also noted on the COA...Imagine someone like Addie Joss. I'd take a traced over one in a heartbeat, as long as the original signature was verifiable..

[Leon]

Ok, I don't collect autographs but obviously see them discussed very frequently. So, a devil's advocate type question. Is there an issue with having a COA/LOA for a traced over autograph much like cards or coins with qualifers/details. It could say something like

AUT (details- traced over autograph)

I have also said I don't think I would have a problem with the Gretzky PSA 8 Wagner if they simply put "handcut" on the flip, though I know it will never happen.

I am waiting to vote

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[RichardSimon]

The COA's with the traced over autographs do state that the autograph is traced over.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

The COA's with the traced over autographs do state that the autograph is traced over.

ok...then as long as it is being sold as, authenticated as, and bought having complete transparency, then I am ok with it. I guess me and one other person feel that way. I can't see the harm in buying something and having a COA describing it and it's exact condition. Why would folks care?