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  #51  
Old 03-04-2019, 07:27 PM
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How about a guy who jumped UP a cliff. Puckett -- first two full seasons, 0 and 4 HR, third year, 31.
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  #52  
Old 03-04-2019, 07:38 PM
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Yoenis Céspedes.
In 2015, he basically singlehandedly got the Mets into the World Series, as his half a season with them was superhuman, but that cliff came quickly in Game 1 of The Series and he's been pulling a Thelma & Louise ever since.
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  #53  
Old 03-04-2019, 11:05 PM
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third year, 31.
And he hit leadoff the entire year. Never drew walks but hit for power, and the Twins batted him leadoff.
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  #54  
Old 03-05-2019, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
How about a guy who jumped UP a cliff. Puckett -- first two full seasons, 0 and 4 HR, third year, 31.
Or Davey Johnson who jumped up the cliff then fell right back off

1972- 5 HR
1973- 43 HR
1974- 15 HR
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  #55  
Old 03-05-2019, 08:01 AM
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Or Davey Johnson who jumped up the cliff then fell right back off

1972- 5 HR
1973- 43 HR
1974- 15 HR
In fairness to Davey, he was in Baltimore in 72 and the Braves moved the fences back in 74 as Aaron was breaking Ruth's HR record. Darrell Evans also had a pretty big drop off from 41 to 25 then 22 with the fences moved back.
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  #56  
Old 03-05-2019, 09:58 AM
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In fairness to Davey, he was in Baltimore in 72 and the Braves moved the fences back in 74 as Aaron was breaking Ruth's HR record. Darrell Evans also had a pretty big drop off from 41 to 25 then 22 with the fences moved back.
Hank went from 40 to 20. Part of that I guess was age.
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  #57  
Old 03-05-2019, 10:41 AM
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I think our newest member, Owner 3, might fall off of a cliff soon.
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  #58  
Old 03-05-2019, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
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I think our newest member, Owner 3, might fall off of a cliff soon.
Give him a little nudge Leon!
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  #59  
Old 03-05-2019, 11:38 AM
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Give him a little nudge Leon!
I am getting a bit exasperated. On this case much more time will be given, people have lives. (well, not me, but others)

edited to add, after phone tag with the member mentioned, we are all good for now. Please carry on....
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  #60  
Old 03-05-2019, 12:09 PM
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Mark Davis went from Cy Young to sayonara.
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  #61  
Old 03-05-2019, 02:23 PM
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Eddie Gaedel. Luckily, it was a short drop, and he was fine.
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  #62  
Old 03-05-2019, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
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Mark Davis went from Cy Young to sayonara.
Mark Davis was exclusively a reliever that year. The next year long-man/spot starter....

Please refer to the "Poll: is Mariano Rivera one of the top 10 pitchers of all time?" thread.

Last edited by PiratesWS1979; 03-05-2019 at 03:37 PM.
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  #63  
Old 03-05-2019, 03:43 PM
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Mark Davis was exclusively a reliever that year. The next year long-man/spot starter....

Please refer to the "Poll: is Mariano Rivera one of the top 10 pitchers of all time?" thread.
I think you should first refer to Mark Davis' stat page. He never threw more innings after the award than the season he won the award. He also started a combined 14 games out of his next 208 appearances.
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  #64  
Old 03-05-2019, 04:15 PM
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Steve Stone lost 7 games in each of 1980 and 1981. Only difference was, he won 25 one year and 4 the next. And after that, he literally was gone. A very good example of Cy Young to Sayonara.
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  #65  
Old 03-05-2019, 04:42 PM
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Maris didn't do much after 61.
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  #66  
Old 03-05-2019, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PiratesWS1979 View Post
Mark Davis was exclusively a reliever that year. The next year long-man/spot starter....

Please refer to the "Poll: is Mariano Rivera one of the top 10 pitchers of all time?" thread.
He was a long reliever and spot starter in 1990 because he bombed as the closer. In his first 15 appearances, he was 0-2 with four blown saves and a 7.24 ERA. He had just one more save in 1990 after that.

KC didn't pay $10m to a Cy Young Award-winning closer to bring him in as a long reliever and spot starter.
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  #67  
Old 03-05-2019, 06:14 PM
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Maris didn't do much after 61.
33/100 the next year not exactly nothing.
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  #68  
Old 03-05-2019, 06:52 PM
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Physical and emotional toll of that season has to be taken into account too. Maris is only 30 years old here in 1965. He looks withered beyond his years to me:

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  #69  
Old 03-05-2019, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
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33/100 the next year not exactly nothing.
Yea still a big drop. And he never got close to even those numbers in 62 again.
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  #70  
Old 03-05-2019, 11:59 PM
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I know Maris fell apart quickly and his career numbers are short. But with 2 mvp and 3 ws and the 61 season I think he belongs in the HOF for the same reason Koufax is in. A short and powerful career.
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  #71  
Old 03-06-2019, 06:25 AM
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I know Maris fell apart quickly and his career numbers are short. But with 2 mvp and 3 ws and the 61 season I think he belongs in the HOF for the same reason Koufax is in. A short and powerful career.
Albert Belle's case is infinitely stronger on the short and sweet theory. 8 or so years as an elite slugger.
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  #72  
Old 03-06-2019, 08:02 AM
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Joey has better numbers but Roger has 2 mvp, 3 ws and 61. Belle has none of those. Advantage: Roger.

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Albert Belle's case is infinitely stronger on the short and sweet theory. 8 or so years as an elite slugger.
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  #73  
Old 03-06-2019, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
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Joey has better numbers but Roger has 2 mvp, 3 ws and 61. Belle has none of those. Advantage: Roger.
The WS are irrelevant IMO. Billy Martin played in a lot of WS too, and Gene Woodling.
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  #74  
Old 03-06-2019, 10:17 AM
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I'm sitting on a minor nest egg if Joey ever DOES get elected:

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  #75  
Old 03-06-2019, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
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Albert Belle's case is infinitely stronger on the short and sweet theory. 8 or so years as an elite slugger.
Agree, personalities aside, Belle was the much better hitter than Maris.
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  #76  
Old 03-06-2019, 11:14 AM
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I'm sitting on a minor nest egg if Joey ever DOES get elected:

Hey if Harold Baines can get in...
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  #77  
Old 03-06-2019, 11:39 AM
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Hey if Harold Baines can get in...
Albert Belle blows away Harold Baines. Look at his stats for the 1990s.
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  #78  
Old 03-06-2019, 12:25 PM
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Albert Belle blows away Harold Baines. Look at his stats for the 1990s.
He only has 1726 hits. It is going to be hard to get elected to the HOF with that few. Maris is even worse with 1325. If those guys had played long enough to get 2000, I think they would both be in.
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  #79  
Old 03-06-2019, 12:40 PM
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He only has 1726 hits. It is going to be hard to get elected to the HOF with that few. Maris is even worse with 1325. If those guys had played long enough to get 2000, I think they would both be in.
Belle's stats are due to injury though. He should have enough merit in what he did while he could play to get in. He was a much better hitter than Jim Rice or Andre Dawson, who are probably the most similar to him in terms of why they got in.
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  #80  
Old 03-06-2019, 12:41 PM
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He only has 1726 hits. It is going to be hard to get elected to the HOF with that few. Maris is even worse with 1325. If those guys had played long enough to get 2000, I think they would both be in.
Oh I agree, especially given his unpopularity Belle will never get in, I was mostly just responding to the notion that a few good years qualified Maris somehow. But I do think if guys like Baines who were pretty good for a very long time are in, one needs to consider guys who were superstars for 6-7-8 years just didn't have much of a career beyond that. The Belles and Mattinglys of the world.
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  #81  
Old 03-06-2019, 01:42 PM
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Oh I agree, especially given his unpopularity Belle will never get in, I was mostly just responding to the notion that a few good years qualified Maris somehow. But I do think if guys like Baines who were pretty good for a very long time are in, one needs to consider guys who were superstars for 6-7-8 years just didn't have much of a career beyond that. The Belles and Mattinglys of the world.
I think there are some guys like Mattingly and Dale Murphy who can get in now that the Veteran's Committee is putting in the likes of Baines, Lee Smith and Morris. I just think that the Maris and Belle career numbers fall short. Longevity does matter and that is the only reason those 3 made it.
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  #82  
Old 03-06-2019, 02:51 PM
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I think there are some guys like Mattingly and Dale Murphy who can get in now that the Veteran's Committee is putting in the likes of Baines, Lee Smith and Morris. I just think that the Maris and Belle career numbers fall short. Longevity does matter and that is the only reason those 3 made it.
Belle .933 OPS to .815 for Murphy and almost as many HR. .830 for Mattingly.

I would not even think about considering Maris who at most had 4 top years, and really only 2.
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  #83  
Old 03-06-2019, 06:06 PM
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Anyone (other than Bonds) who the Giants have extended lately.
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  #84  
Old 03-06-2019, 11:51 PM
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He only has 1726 hits. It is going to be hard to get elected to the HOF with that few. Maris is even worse with 1325. If those guys had played long enough to get 2000, I think they would both be in.
The rules say 10 years. Belle played 10 full plus 2 others. He had waaaaaaaaaay more great years than Sandy Koufax yet Koufax went right in, with no one caring about his short career. Belle is an absolute no-brainer HOFer.
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  #85  
Old 03-07-2019, 07:45 AM
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For a player with a short career to go in the hall it has to be spectacular. Sandy has 3 cy and an mvp to go with 3 ws rings. Joey has no MVP awards. No World Series. He was caught using a corked bat. He was a huge slugger and had a very nice career. I would agree that he should be strongly considered for the HOF. But I think Maris, Mattingly and Murphy belong first. They were all the best players in baseball at one point in their careers. Belle was not.


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The rules say 10 years. Belle played 10 full plus 2 others. He had waaaaaaaaaay more great years than Sandy Koufax yet Koufax went right in, with no one caring about his short career. Belle is an absolute no-brainer HOFer.
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  #86  
Old 03-07-2019, 08:48 AM
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Plus Belle was "VERY DIFFICULT" to like! It's NOT supposed to matter, but...
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  #87  
Old 03-07-2019, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
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For a player with a short career to go in the hall it has to be spectacular. Sandy has 3 cy and an mvp to go with 3 ws rings. Joey has no MVP awards. No World Series. He was caught using a corked bat. He was a huge slugger and had a very nice career. I would agree that he should be strongly considered for the HOF. But I think Maris, Mattingly and Murphy belong first. They were all the best players in baseball at one point in their careers. Belle was not.
Do you support Gooden then on the pitching side? Santana? Maybe Oswalt?
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Old 03-07-2019, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports View Post
For a player with a short career to go in the hall it has to be spectacular. Sandy has 3 cy and an mvp to go with 3 ws rings. Joey has no MVP awards. No World Series. He was caught using a corked bat. He was a huge slugger and had a very nice career. I would agree that he should be strongly considered for the HOF. But I think Maris, Mattingly and Murphy belong first. They were all the best players in baseball at one point in their careers. Belle was not.
Albert's heights eclipsed awards. He played in the steroid era and was never under a steroid cloud. He finished 2nd or 3rd in MVP voting three years in a row. One of those years he finished second to Mo Vaughn, known purchaser of HGH and named in the Mitchel Report. Then he finished third behind A-rod (known cheater) and Juan Gonzalez (known cheater).

So you are talking about a guy who should have won at least 2 of the 3 MVP awards he nearly won and a guy who drove in 100 runs or more the last 9 years of his career.

What exactly did Jim Rice do to end up in the HOF that Albert Belle didn't?
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  #89  
Old 03-07-2019, 09:48 AM
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1994. 36/101/.357/1.152 in just 106 games. I'd say that year he was the best player in baseball, and damn close to it quite a few other years, if this is somehow the test.
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  #90  
Old 03-07-2019, 11:44 AM
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Johan and Gooden have fair cases - edge to Johan. Oswalt has none. Oswalt has no CY. Gooden and Johan each have 1 20 win season. All HOVG.


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Do you support Gooden then on the pitching side? Santana? Maybe Oswalt?
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  #91  
Old 03-07-2019, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
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Albert's heights eclipsed awards. He played in the steroid era and was never under a steroid cloud. He finished 2nd or 3rd in MVP voting three years in a row. One of those years he finished second to Mo Vaughn, known purchaser of HGH and named in the Mitchel Report. Then he finished third behind A-rod (known cheater) and Juan Gonzalez (known cheater).

So you are talking about a guy who should have won at least 2 of the 3 MVP awards he nearly won and a guy who drove in 100 runs or more the last 9 years of his career.

What exactly did Jim Rice do to end up in the HOF that Albert Belle didn't?
Win an mvp.
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  #92  
Old 03-07-2019, 12:10 PM
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Win an mvp.
Someone wins the MVP every year. They are not all HOFers.
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  #93  
Old 03-07-2019, 12:12 PM
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A name that should be mentioned is Bill James, the hurler for the 1914 World Series champion Boston Braves. He went 26-7 with them that great year. Bill also won 2 games in the Series, and must have been Manager Johnny Evers's ace, for they sweep the A's in what was their swan song season of that era.

Mr. James followed with 5-4, for what I am sure is a plausible reason, but sadly, a long fall from the cliff. Thereafter, no wins in MLB.

Returning to Roger Maris, while he never returned to the season numbers and performance of 1960-61, a major cause was the near-constant emotional and mental abuse heaped upon the poor man from the kazillion Yankee fans who believed Roger did not deserve to be the single season home run king. In tandem were the writers, who almost to a man wrote him off as surly, grouchy, and ill-fit to carry the Babe's jockstrap. In his memoirs, Roger Maris wrote that the worst season he felt all this was not 1961, but 1962. Thereafter, I imagine the drive to hit homers the way Yankee management had traded for him to do so had left him entirely.

His trade to the Cardinals was a win-win for the Cards and Roger. The Cardinals' management and moreover, all their loyal and non-front running fans took the beleaguered and tormented Roger into their huge hearts. The Rajah's regal World Series performance was a fitting climax to his first season in St. Loo, and no doubt Yank fans were gnashing their teeth about it, while bashing whoever they had turned upon once Mr. Maris left them.....Joe Pepitone perhaps?

Anyway, it took Yank management a long time to realize what they had had in Roger Maris, and I salute George Steinbrenner for his tenacious efforts and humility to bring Roger back to the Stadium, and lavish long overdue praise, nice treatment, and build a monument for him in their exclusive little park for such better Bombers. In my mind, Roger Maris is still MLB's single season home run king.

I'll leave it alone. ---Brian Powell
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  #94  
Old 03-07-2019, 12:28 PM
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Actually, the degree to which the hostile atmosphere of the New York press and public was responsible for Maris' decline has long been exaggerated. Yes, he was treated badly by the press, but that changed from abuse due to his not being Babe Ruth (totally unfair, of course), to abuse over the fact that his performance declined catastrophically (unfortunate, but entirely normal - it would have been amazing if he DIDN'T get some grief over that).

The REASON for the decline is rarely talked about, given that all people remember now is how mean the newspapers were. The real reason is that Maris broke his hand in 1963, and the crude x-ray technology of the time completely missed the hairline fracture. He wasn't properly diagnosed for several years, by which time he'd been playing with a broken/improperly healed hand for several years, which ultimately caused permanent damage.

I'm at work so I don't have access to all the details, but that's the real cause of his decline - injury, not emotional abuse. It's not as interesting a story, which is why it's not remembered that way.
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Old 03-07-2019, 12:37 PM
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The Boston press ravaged Ted Williams for most of his career. He hit .345. I don't think Maris' on field play was due to his treatment by the press.
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Old 03-07-2019, 12:39 PM
brian1961 brian1961 is offline
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Originally Posted by akleinb611 View Post
Actually, the degree to which the hostile atmosphere of the New York press and public was responsible for Maris' decline has long been exaggerated. Yes, he was treated badly by the press, but that changed from abuse due to his not being Babe Ruth (totally unfair, of course), to abuse over the fact that his performance declined catastrophically (unfortunate, but entirely normal - it would have been amazing if he DIDN'T get some grief over that).

The REASON for the decline is rarely talked about, given that all people remember now is how mean the newspapers were. The real reason is that Maris broke his hand in 1963, and the crude x-ray technology of the time completely missed the hairline fracture. He wasn't properly diagnosed for several years, by which time he'd been playing with a broken/improperly healed hand for several years, which ultimately caused permanent damage.

I'm at work so I don't have access to all the details, but that's the real cause of his decline - injury, not emotional abuse. It's not as interesting a story, which is why it's not remembered that way.
--Well said, Alan, though I do stand by what I wrote. However, I was not aware of how long Roger had to suffer with that broken hand. I recall reading how he would tell Yank management about it, and they felt he was just making excuses or not trying hard enough. He probably had permanently damaged it by the time it was properly diagnosed and dealt with, so he could never use his full power I would think. Regardless, good post, bro. Best regards. ---Brian Powell
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Old 03-07-2019, 02:29 PM
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Brian:

I don't disagree with you regarding the case for Maris' enshrinement. He had several good years as an up-and-comer, two outstanding MVP seasons, and another (1962) that wasn't bad either. That's not enough. If he hadn't broken his hand, had played three or four more years, and had put in one or two more top quality seasons, would he be at least an arguable HOF candidate? Sure. But he didn't. It's fine to give someone the benefit of the doubt, but this is much too speculative.

Maris' career reminds me in some ways of the late Al Rosen, who had a ten-year career with Cleveland, was a consistently very fine batter and third baseman, won an MVP and could have won another, and who was forced to retire very suddenly at 31 or 32 when he injured his hand quite badly, bad enough so that he felt there was no question that he couldn't play anymore. If he'd been able to play another four or five years, with only one or two more at the level he'd shown previously, he'd be a very strong candidate. But he didn't, and he's just short of inclining me to speculate. Rosen is my working example of a player who's just about as good a player that you can be without being a Hall of Famer.
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Old 03-07-2019, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports View Post
I know Maris fell apart quickly and his career numbers are short. But with 2 mvp and 3 ws and the 61 season I think he belongs in the HOF for the same reason Koufax is in. A short and powerful career.


I sure wish I knew how to spell blassfulmy,



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Old 03-07-2019, 03:05 PM
Den*nis O*Brien Den*nis O*Brien is offline
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.... the sad story of Roger Maris that aKlein and Brian shared. He was a great player and person in my opinion. But going back to the "Cliff" theme I would like to submit Bo Belinsky. It seems that the last image I have of him is sitting in his tomato red Cadillac with his arm around Mamie Van Doren after his no hitter. Then.......a career W & L of 28-51. He is sadly deceased.
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Old 03-07-2019, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Den*nis O*Brien View Post
.... the sad story of Roger Maris that aKlein and Brian shared. He was a great player and person in my opinion. But going back to the "Cliff" theme I would like to submit Bo Belinsky. It seems that the last image I have of him is sitting in his tomato red Cadillac with his arm around Mamie Van Doren after his no hitter. Then.......a career W & L of 28-51. He is sadly deceased.
Bo never had even a single good season though did he?

Tragic story anyhow. Read this.
http://www.lamag.com/longform/fallen-angel-1/
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 03-07-2019 at 04:53 PM.
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