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  #51  
Old 11-27-2018, 09:26 PM
BruceinGa BruceinGa is offline
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Great work, thanks guys!!
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  #52  
Old 11-27-2018, 09:28 PM
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Is the top dog missing something or .... ??
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  #53  
Old 11-27-2018, 09:33 PM
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Kudos gentleman. I am always amazed at the work people can do with technology.
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  #54  
Old 11-27-2018, 09:33 PM
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Here's the Sullivan sale, same buyer as the Parent.

Sullivan Sale.jpg
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  #55  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:02 AM
mrvster mrvster is offline
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Default this asshole

will be caught......we have super sleuths here on the board like set builder and Pat....


unfortunately, the damage has already been done....


nice jerk off who ever you are......ruin another part of our hobby for a few bucks....


I'm not perfect and try not to judge anyone, but creating these cards only creates anxiety about our hobby in general....


a pre THANK YOU ASSHOLE
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  #56  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:14 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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Anyone else thinking "odds are it's a member, and now we've warned him?"
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  #57  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
Anyone else thinking "odds are it's a member, and now we've warned him?"
Yes and maybe
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  #58  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:19 AM
mrvster mrvster is offline
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Default The idiot

will be caught....he/she left their stank all over ebay........

but who is to say there are not a few of them????


auto buyers beware,......JSA and SGC and PSA are clueless sometimes...

like I said, it is their "opinion"

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  #59  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:36 AM
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Default Add Paddy Livingston to the list

I found one myself this morning:

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ton-1734136080

https://huntauctions.com/phone/image...9&lot_num=1010
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  #60  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
Anyone else thinking "odds are it's a member, and now we've warned him?"
I have learned the identity of a number of forgers over the years. In every case it was a person who had started as a collector and was known within the hobby.

Another pattern is forgers often sell fakes and use the proceeds to buy authentic material. It's how they launder the money.
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  #61  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector View Post
Another nice *and sad* catch all at once. That took a 20 dollar card and made it into a 1200 dollar card.....
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  #62  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
Another nice *and sad* catch all at once. That took a 20 dollar card and made it into a 1200 dollar card.....
Given what I know about the pattern of signed T206 sales over the past 11 years, I feel a responsibility to track down as much info as I can, even if it diminishes my collection and discourages collectors from participating in the hobby. It needs to be done.
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  #63  
Old 11-28-2018, 09:06 AM
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great work all, very interesting to see/read this.
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  #64  
Old 11-28-2018, 09:09 AM
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Iím just pointing out a fact we can all see, but it seems whoever the forger is was submitting to SGC and JSA for the authentication. I havenít seen a PSA/DNA one pop up yet...not that they arenít out there to... Iím not a big autograph collector but this is definitely a bad look for those two companies and as I understand it JSA used to do the authentication work for SGC.
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  #65  
Old 11-28-2018, 09:27 AM
vtgmsc vtgmsc is offline
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Default True....100%......

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvster View Post
will be caught....he/she left their stank all over ebay........

but who is to say there are not a few of them????


auto buyers beware,......JSA and SGC and PSA are clueless sometimes...

like I said, it is their "opinion"

MRVSTER,

I once met Wayne Gretzky and his dad Walter in the lobby of the local Sheraton Hotel. Wayne signed his upper deck card VERY nicely on the front in Sharpie and I then asked Walter to sign the back as I thought that would be cool. He signed it very nicely I might add. I then thought, this would look nice in a PSA/DNA holder........they REJECTED it with no explanation. Charged me $25 plus shipping so maybe $40 altogether and I got the card back raw!?!?! I also provided them the exact date and time the card was signed by both. UGH!!!!!!!

Peace, Mike

Last edited by vtgmsc; 11-28-2018 at 09:29 AM.
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  #66  
Old 11-28-2018, 09:29 AM
ejharrington ejharrington is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLongley View Post
Iím just pointing out a fact we can all see, but it seems whoever the forger is was submitting to SGC and JSA for the authentication. I havenít seen a PSA/DNA one pop up yet...not that they arenít out there to... Iím not a big autograph collector but this is definitely a bad look for those two companies and as I understand it JSA used to do the authentication work for SGC.
In fairness to SGC, they correctly rejected a JSA authenticated autograph. That rejection started all of this discovery in the first place.
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  #67  
Old 11-28-2018, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtgmsc View Post
I once met Wayne Gretzky and his dad Walter in the lobby of the local Sheraton Hotel. Wayne signed his upper deck card VERY nicely on the front in Sharpie and I then asked Walter to sign the back as I thought that would be cool. He signed it very nicely I might add. I then thought, this would look nice in a PSA/DNA holder........they REJECTED it with no explanation.
Did their website say they had exemplars of Wayne Gretzky's DAD's autograph to compare against? Sounds like you got too cute with it.
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  #68  
Old 11-28-2018, 09:43 AM
1treasuretrove 1treasuretrove is offline
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I’ll say this...

I would imagine most collectors that have a signed card authenticated for resale would not choose JSA or SGC. This is nothing against either company but is specifically related to cards. If someone were selling a signed 8x10 photo, resale value would typically remain the same.

For signed cards, I would think the most typical choice for resale would be PSA/DNA or BAS. Modern cards (e.g. Mike Trout signed rookie) should sell for the same amount with either PSA or BAS and some collectors might prefer the Beckett holder. For vintage cards, it is without question (for me) PSA/DNA for resale.

If I see someone post a signed vintage card in an SGC holder on a message board when showing off their collection...I figure it must just be brand loyalty or preference to the holder type. If I see someone selling a signed vintage card with anything other than PSA, I figure it must have previously failed PSA. While failing PSA is of course no true verification that an autograph isn’t authentic, the holder itself holds more weight.

This might not be true for everyone but this is how I see it when determining resale. I use all 4 companies for resale but it is based on item type and tier.

EDITED TO ADD:
This thread shows some amazing work of the members here. While the ffindings are sad and I feel for the buyers, there is always some level of fraud in everything and it must be exposed. Tremendous work and great collaborative discussion on a necessary topic for our hobby.

Last edited by 1treasuretrove; 11-28-2018 at 09:54 AM.
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  #69  
Old 11-28-2018, 10:04 AM
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Default Brian Dwyer & Robert Edward Auctions (REA)

For anybody who knows Brian this will come as no surprise, but last night -- unsolicited -- Brian sent me a refund e-check for the Sullivan, with a pre-paid FedEx label to return the card to him. Suffice it to say, I have now spoken to Brian, who is well aware of these threads, and is working on the issue privately to help determine the source of these forgeries. I understand he has reached out to the buyer of the Parent as well.

A shining moment in an otherwise black day for my hobby.

Thank you again Brian.
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  #70  
Old 11-28-2018, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector View Post
For anybody who knows Brian this will come as no surprise, but last night -- unsolicited -- Brian sent me a refund e-check for the Sullivan, with a pre-paid FedEx label to return the card to him. Suffice it to say, I have now spoken to Brian, who is well aware of these threads, and is working on the issue privately to help determine the source of these forgeries. I understand he has reached out to the buyer of the Parent as well.

A shining moment in an otherwise black day for my hobby.

Thank you again Brian.
We all feel you pain as passionate collectors... hang in there!

And kudos to Brian for continuing to be a standup guy in the hobby!
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  #71  
Old 11-28-2018, 10:44 AM
mrvster mrvster is offline
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Default Paul

my heart goes out to you! and to you to Mike!

Brian is the man!

I am fuming today seeing these posts....this sucks!
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  #72  
Old 11-28-2018, 10:50 AM
mrvster mrvster is offline
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Default can someone

check mine???
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  #73  
Old 11-28-2018, 11:05 AM
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Wow, do I feel terrible for T206 Collector and everyone else who has been duped. I cannot figure out autographs at all. Fakes, fakes and fakes. Why do people believe in all these miraculously signed items? I don't believe Spence can do it and I don't think SGC can do it. You can pick some bad fakes out, but oh it looks similar enough to a known example, so it's real? That's not proof of anything.

I have very high hopes in Brian that he will help unmask the forger...and hopefully Verkmann will help as well. I would love to see SGC offer up the name of those who consigned these items...and help be part of the solution. Please!

Mac Wubben
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  #74  
Old 11-28-2018, 11:10 AM
The Nasty Nati The Nasty Nati is offline
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I was always blown away that JSA and SGC slabbed these cards that were clearly never signed by Rube Marquard. The signatures are much different, and probably signed by his wife. How did they not catch that or at least indicate on the slab that it was signed by his wife.
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  #75  
Old 11-28-2018, 11:22 AM
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Unless you are personally witnessing the signing of the card, there is no way that you, or any expert can ever be 100% sure it is not a fake. Trained artists can fake any signature, and if you don't believe that you are being naive.

Expert opinions are just that, opinions.
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  #76  
Old 11-28-2018, 11:29 AM
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Marquard passed away in 1980. I used to write to HOFers back in the 70s and I have some of his signatures from the mid-late 70s. Many of the signatures later in his life showed signs of someone that did not have a very steady hand.

He'd have been in his mid to late 80's when he signed the 3x5 cards and HOF Plaque cards. I'm pretty sure the signatures I have were signed by him because why would someone sign it really jittery...

My guess is that any signatures that are fairly clean are from pre-mid 70s.

I'd have to figure that if he signed a few this year they'd be really shakey signatures....not like the pretty signatures that someone else wrote for him this year....

This is getting pretty deep.
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  #77  
Old 11-28-2018, 11:31 AM
The Nasty Nati The Nasty Nati is offline
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Also, I'm seeing a trend. All of the ones that have been discovered (minus the raw Marquard one) all have the newer SGC red label with the watermark.

Now that doesn't mean that the signed cards that have the older SGC slabs are truly authentic but this could be a better indicator.

In my opinion it's way too easy to forge a ballpoint pen and sharpie signature, but the old faded fountain pen signatures may be a little harder to forge nowadays...although not impossible.

And just because we can't find the card on Worthpoint doesn't mean the auto cards are in the clear. Worthpoint obviously doesn't account for cards acquired at shows and cards at auction houses. Worthpoint only covers ebay.
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  #78  
Old 11-28-2018, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvster View Post
check mine???
This seems very unlikely to be faked; The signature on front is faded/streaky and oddly located. The writing on back is too much for someone who's faking to add, plus a second signature. Plus the card itself seems a little too damaged: pinhole plus creases just looks natural.
It's like buying a photograph signed with an inscription to someone: less likely to be faked because the limit on people interested in purchasing it.
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  #79  
Old 11-28-2018, 11:45 AM
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Man this is wild. Great job uncovering all this. With how much this is going to cost, I wonder if these TPGs will just stop grading signed T206s. Obviously there are more valuable autographed items, but a signed Billy Sullivan T206 is pretty obscure. Has to be tough to offer an opinion on a card like that and feel great about it.
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  #80  
Old 11-28-2018, 11:46 AM
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If anyone has a card they want to check against auction records at Worthpoint or anywhere else, or wants the community to help check, we need at a minimum, the auction date (when you purchased it but preferably when it was first sold) and the back type. This is to narrow down the immense amount of cards in the search results. It gets the results down from around 1,000 to a more manageable 2-300.
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  #81  
Old 11-28-2018, 11:57 AM
Shoeless Moe Shoeless Moe is offline
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....
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  #82  
Old 11-28-2018, 11:58 AM
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Default Has JSA sticker stuck right on the back of the card!

Not sure where the best place to post this is--sorry in advance if it is the wrong place or too soon as I'm sure I'm not alone. I purchased this pretty commonly signed card over 10 years ago for then premium of $180 or so. My one and only signed vintage card, so I won't be too upset if they got this one wrong as well.I 'd be interested in people's thoughts as to its authenticity and value given recently discovered fakes. Thanks
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  #83  
Old 11-28-2018, 12:00 PM
The Nasty Nati The Nasty Nati is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SetBuilder View Post
If anyone has a card they want to check against auction records at Worthpoint or anywhere else, or wants the community to help check, we need at a minimum, the auction date (when you purchased it but preferably when it was first sold) and the back type. This is to narrow down the immense amount of cards in the search results. It gets the results down from around 1,000 to a more manageable 2-300.
Agreed, although when searching Worthpoint don't include the back in the search as some people don't list the backs in their original ebay posts.
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  #84  
Old 11-28-2018, 12:03 PM
The Nasty Nati The Nasty Nati is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete zouras View Post
Not sure where the best place to post this is--sorry in advance if it is the wrong place or too soon as I'm sure I'm not alone. I purchased this pretty commonly signed card over 10 years ago for then premium of $180 or so. My one and only signed vintage card, so I won't be too upset if they got this one wrong as well.I 'd be interested in people's thoughts as to its authenticity and value given recently discovered fakes. Thanks

My opinion, your card is probably an authentic auto. The fading of the signature is pretty hard to forge and I believe that is a fountain pen auto.

Ones I would be suspicion of are the bold ballpoint pen and sharpie signatures.
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  #85  
Old 11-28-2018, 12:04 PM
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No surprise here same buyer on the Livingstone.

Livingstone Sale.jpg
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  #86  
Old 11-28-2018, 12:13 PM
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Not to point out the obvious, but it's amazing the only reason this guy got caught is because he was using lower grade encapsulated cards that could easily be traced.

Why somebody skilled enough with forging who was able to get away with this for several years wasn't digging up easily obtained lower grade raw versions of these same players I'll never know.

It's almost arrogant.

Could only imagine how many of these are out there that will never get matched up with the original card.

Also, this thread has got me thinking it's about time I stopped being cheap and finally signed up with Worthpoint.
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  #87  
Old 11-28-2018, 12:20 PM
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Purchased my first signed T206 at REA a month ago - 10/28/18. This has a Piedmont 150 back. Any concerns with this one?
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  #88  
Old 11-28-2018, 12:24 PM
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I feel terrible for collectors impacted by this. There is just so much fraud in the hobby.

This board is just amazing with the detective work by members to try and stamp out scammers.
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  #89  
Old 11-28-2018, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rommesc View Post
Purchased my first signed T206 at REA a month ago - 10/28/18. This has a Piedmont 150 back. Any concerns with this one?
Is there a cert date for the autograph authentication?
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  #90  
Old 11-28-2018, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Bergin View Post
Not to point out the obvious, but it's amazing the only reason this guy got caught is because he was using lower grade encapsulated cards that could easily be traced.

Why somebody skilled enough with forging who was able to get away with this for several years wasn't digging up easily obtained lower grade raw versions of these same players I'll never know.

It's almost arrogant.

Could only imagine how many of these are out there that will never get matched up with the original card.

Also, this thread has got me thinking it's about time I stopped being cheap and finally signed up with Worthpoint.

Just plain greed. A passable looking raw card might go for a VG price or a little less to someone hoping for a VG or VG-Ex if they're lucky. A graded 10 will usually be less.
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  #91  
Old 11-28-2018, 12:54 PM
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Any luck contacting the original EBay seller?
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  #92  
Old 11-28-2018, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete zouras View Post
Not sure where the best place to post this is--sorry in advance if it is the wrong place or too soon as I'm sure I'm not alone. I purchased this pretty commonly signed card over 10 years ago for then premium of $180 or so. My one and only signed vintage card, so I won't be too upset if they got this one wrong as well.I 'd be interested in people's thoughts as to its authenticity and value given recently discovered fakes. Thanks
This card is from the 2007 Great Pittsburgh Find of Signed T206 Cards. Only the Covaleski (secretarial) didn't pass authentication. I would credit this Find with bringing recent attention to signed T206 cards (it certainly jump-started my collection), and unfortunately appears to have invited more forgers into the game.

The Snodgrass asked about above is from "Pre-eBay Group 3" which means they were all offered to me by a recognized dealer in Pittsburgh (either "ctang50" and "r.c.means" on ebay) before he listed them on eBay. From that group, I still have -- and adore -- the signed T201 Wheat and the signed T206 Barbeau. You can read about the find and review the cards from that find on my website.

http://www.signedt206.com/great-pittsburgh-find/
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Last edited by T206Collector; 11-28-2018 at 01:04 PM.
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  #93  
Old 11-28-2018, 01:05 PM
SetBuilder SetBuilder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
No surprise here same buyer on the Livingstone.

Attachment 335679
There should be a copy of that feedback on the buyer's "feedback left for others" tab.

If we could only track this account down, it will have a list of all the cards he purchased around this same time period. It could reveal his entire body of work.
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  #94  
Old 11-28-2018, 01:53 PM
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Bpm0014 Bpm0014 is offline
Brendan Mullen
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Can't we simply ask the Seller "Who purchased this card from you?"
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  #95  
Old 11-28-2018, 01:53 PM
Sean1125 Sean1125 is offline
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Originally Posted by T206Collector View Post
This card is from the 2007 Great Pittsburgh Find of Signed T206 Cards. Only the Covaleski (secretarial) didn't pass authentication. I would credit this Find with bringing recent attention to signed T206 cards (it certainly jump-started my collection), and unfortunately appears to have invited more forgers into the game.

The Snodgrass asked about above is from "Pre-eBay Group 3" which means they were all offered to me by a recognized dealer in Pittsburgh (either "ctang50" and "r.c.means" on ebay) before he listed them on eBay. From that group, I still have -- and adore -- the signed T201 Wheat and the signed T206 Barbeau. You can read about the find and review the cards from that find on my website.

http://www.signedt206.com/great-pittsburgh-find/
I own the double signed Davy Jones from this find... Is it real?
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  #96  
Old 11-28-2018, 02:41 PM
rommesc rommesc is offline
Chris R
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Originally Posted by Fred View Post
Is there a cert date for the autograph authentication?
Checked the PSA website and it did not display the date that the card was authenticated. Also searched several serial numbers surrounding this cert number and none had dates. Is there a certain date range to be wary of?
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  #97  
Old 11-28-2018, 02:59 PM
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egbeachley egbeachley is offline
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Originally Posted by Bpm0014 View Post
Can't we simply ask the Seller "Who purchased this card from you?"
Yes, but they may be reluctant to give out that information. I'm just surprised that one of the sellers here hasn't checked their feedback to see if they sold to the identified bidders. Although that may mean the bidder reads this forum and avoided sellers that post here.
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  #98  
Old 11-28-2018, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Sean1125 View Post
I own the double signed Davy Jones from this find... Is it real?
I believe all signed T206 cards from that find -- other than Secretary-signed Covaleski, the William-signed Powell and the Larry-signed Joe Doyle -- to be authentic.

Without committing that every autographed T206 authenticated prior to October 2015 is the real deal, and putting aside for the moment Rube Marquard generally for other reasons including, but certainly not limited to, the evidently large population and the evidence that his wife may very well have signed some of his T206 cards late in life, I think the most critical eye towards authenticity has to begin with the Robert Edward and Hunt Auctions in the Fall of 2015.

By way of background, in November 2013, the prices on signed T206 cards really went through the roof. Heritage held the largest signed T206 card collection auction since the 2007 find. Not only did this auction feature the first offer of a signed T206 Rucker (throwing pose) since Jeff Morey’s sale in 2001, but the prices realized were more or less astronomical, when compared with the most recent public sales of many of these cards. Ironically, though Marquard is the most popular signed T206 subject, not a single Marquard was available. However, the other "usual suspects" Doyle and Snodgrass were featured, as well as a nice Tommy Leach portrait. For collectors looking to add HOFers, you had three to pick from -- Flick and Crawford, who both went for over $6,500 -- and the cleanest signature on a Wheat imaginable, which helped explain the nearly $4,000 price tag.

Importantly, and I think this is very import -- no new discoveries of unknown signed poses were here, but still wonderful cards nonetheless.

However - and perhaps due to these record-breaking prices, during the winter of 2015-16, a flurry of signed T206 cards popped up in REA and Hunt -- a whopping 6 of which poses had never been publicly identified before (at least as far back and including Jeff Morey's auction of his collection through Mastro in 2001):

In Fall 2015 REA...
1. Frank Baker
2. Jesse Tannehill

REA-Baker Tannehill Pair

In Fall 2015 Hunt...
3. Murray Batting

Murray_Hunt_Standalone

In Spring 2016 Hunt...
4. Rhoades Hands at Chest

Hunt SGC Quartet

In Spring 2016 REA...
5. Conroy Fielding
6. Sullivan

REA-Quartet

If your cards did not come from or after the time of these auctions you are not necessarily clear, of course, but I would not let the current trauma affect you. There was nothing surprising about the cards that appeared on the market between 2001 and 2015, all of which are consistent in terms of the players that folks like Jeff Morey were getting in person at Cooperstown and through the mail from the mid-1950s through the 1970s.

In 2015, the landscape shifted and started to include a lot of one-off names. That's not to say all of them aren't legitimate, but Sullivan and Rhoades -- obscure names for autograph seekers -- certainly aren't.

What remains to be seen is whether the consignor(s) of these cards -- and I believe Baker, Tannehill, Rucker, Parent, Sullivan and Conroy all came from the same consignor -- got the cards from the forger unknowingly/unwittingly, whether there were good ones mixed in with the bad ones, or whether they're all just fake regardless of whether the consignor was in on it. REA is in the process of trying to figure this out on his end, and Hunt has been contacted by interested collectors as well. SGC and REA have both indicated the FBI will be contacted.

So, short story, if your signed T206 card(s) can be traced to a sale prior to October 1, 2015, I do not believe that your card would be affected by this latest string of forgeries. Of course, that does not mean you're necessarily in the clear. It just means your cards or collection up to that point probably wasn't impacted by this current attack on the hobby.

As I have said for years and years on Net54, a collection of pre-war cards, signed or not, is only going to be as valuable as the ability and reputation of the TPG/TPA to certify the card/signature.

I will be sure to keep posting about this scourge on my collection and my hobby, and I will have no shame -- and only sadness -- in identifying those cards in my collection that have been shown by credible evidence to be frauds.
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Last edited by T206Collector; 03-29-2019 at 08:22 AM.
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  #99  
Old 11-28-2018, 03:07 PM
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Pat R Pat R is offline
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Originally Posted by SetBuilder View Post
There should be a copy of that feedback on the buyer's "feedback left for others" tab.

If we could only track this account down, it will have a list of all the cards he purchased around this same time period. It could reveal his entire body of work.
Here's the Feedback the seller left the buyer on the Livingstone.

Livingstone Buyer Feedback.jpg

Last edited by Pat R; 11-30-2018 at 08:25 PM.
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  #100  
Old 11-28-2018, 03:26 PM
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Pat R Pat R is offline
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Not a great scan but I think this is the Baker.

Baker.jpg

Baker - Copy.jpg
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