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  #1001  
Old 03-28-2019, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
Woah; then the fact that their head auto authenticator is immediately moving to Beckett isn't a great look for Beckett either.
Even though anonymous trolls and criminals don't like Beckett, on BO, they are a good company. This is a good move for both SGC and Beckett in my opinion.
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  #1002  
Old 03-28-2019, 08:40 AM
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I don't think this is a good sign for longevity. Promised changes are not happening fast, and now closing a division of the business and probably laying off staff.
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  #1003  
Old 03-28-2019, 09:16 AM
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Default they NEVER should have

started auto authenticating before they got their holder/registry/grading issues on CARDS resolved...…….
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  #1004  
Old 03-28-2019, 05:49 PM
MichelaiTorres83 MichelaiTorres83 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dpeck100 View Post
I saw this on Facebook.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...RNzW29ps2fHznE


Looks like SGC is folding their auto business. You have to wonder if it is correlated to the happenings in this thread.
Unlikely. I believe it is partof their slow demise.

I don’t believe they will be in business 10 years from now.

You are sort of doomed when buyers and dealers won’t touch a card that they have graded.

The prices reflect that and people do not want to flip them to take losses.
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  #1005  
Old 03-28-2019, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83 View Post
You are sort of doomed when buyers and dealers won’t touch a card that they have graded.

The prices reflect that and people do not want to flip them to take losses.
I don’t have many unsigned SGC graded cards any more, but the prices on SGC graded T206 cards in last week’s REA did very well, IMHO, surpassing PSA in some cases (e.g., T206 Johnson Portrait PSA 5 vs SGC 5).
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  #1006  
Old 03-28-2019, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by tribefan View Post
What impact does this have on the value of SGC authenticated items for the future? Will they be seen as inferior to PSA, JSA, or BAS certified items?
Frankly, I think everyone has the same concerns about autograph authenticity whether it be SGC, PSA, JSA, etc.
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  #1007  
Old 03-28-2019, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83 View Post
Unlikely. I believe it is partof their slow demise.

I don’t believe they will be in business 10 years from now.

You are sort of doomed when buyers and dealers won’t touch a card that they have graded.

The prices reflect that and people do not want to flip them to take losses.
People won't touch SGC cards? Good to know. Though clearly I've been hallucinating looking at recent auctions.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1952_T...-LOT62449.aspx

Last edited by Snapolit1; 03-28-2019 at 07:16 PM.
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  #1008  
Old 03-28-2019, 07:02 PM
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Default Authenticity Issues

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Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
Frankly, I think everyone has the same concerns about autograph authenticity whether it be SGC, PSA, JSA, etc.
Hi Jeff, JoeT here and I hope all is well. Just remember, that for every fake autograph, there’s at least one if not more “doctored” cards in a high grade holder. Anyone disagreeing with that is badly fooling themselves.
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  #1009  
Old 03-28-2019, 07:16 PM
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Hi Jeff, JoeT here and I hope all is well. Just remember, that for every fake autograph, there’s at least one if not more “doctored” cards in a high grade holder. Anyone disagreeing with that is badly fooling themselves.
No doubt. I think the obvious differences are that not only does a trimmed card still have value compared to a fake autograph but the trim job - if unknown - is not presumed fake whereas many autos are.
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  #1010  
Old 03-28-2019, 07:20 PM
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Default Authenticity of Cards

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No doubt. I think the obvious differences are that not only does a trimmed card still have value compared to a fake autograph but the trim job - if unknown - is not presumed fake whereas many autos are.
Agreed Jeff but with either scenario, unfortunately we are talking about outright fraud.
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  #1011  
Old 03-28-2019, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83 View Post
Unlikely. I believe it is partof their slow demise.

I don’t believe they will be in business 10 years from now.

You are sort of doomed when buyers and dealers won’t touch a card that they have graded.

The prices reflect that and people do not want to flip them to take losses.


SGC doesn't grade that many cards and they probably weren't grading very many auto's so it is an easy business decision to shut down a line of business that you play a very limited role in the market in and one that you might be taking significant financial risk by doing. It might not have been profitable for them anyways.

I have only dealt with SGC once and felt like the process was smooth and was really happy with how the cards looked in their holders. The problem is the collecting pool is getting smaller and smaller for their cards and there may certainly be segments where the collector base is very solid and perhaps like them more than other third party graders but the general trend is slipping.

It is my understanding at one point recently that they might grade 10,000 cards in a good month. This isn't a very large business and the revenue is probably less than 1.5 million if not lower. I think a lot of people forget how small the third party authentication business really is. PSA has a market share that amounts to total domination of a market and they really don't make that much money. Collectors Universe through June of 18 only made 6.2 million in profit for the fiscal year and around 35% of the company is represented by PSA so we are not talking huge numbers.

I think it is a very real possibility at some point SGC goes away. It might not and I think having choices is better for a market but it certainly isn't out of the realm of possibilities. What I think is more likely is they keep maintaining a very small amount of market share and someone out there is making 400k or so a year to operate it and is totally fine with it. It will certainly be interesting.

If they go out of business it is bad for the slabs in general but there are once again probably some areas where the collectors are totally comfortable with what they bought and it won't be an issue at all. I don't collect the older cards so I don't have a real opinion that counts but on newer cards it certainly wouldn't be good for them in most cases.
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  #1012  
Old 03-28-2019, 08:01 PM
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No doubt. I think the obvious differences are that not only does a trimmed card still have value compared to a fake autograph but the trim job - if unknown - is not presumed fake whereas many autos are.
Sure it has some value but a fraction of the face value based on the flip, so that isn't really much of a difference IMO. And I would guess there are 10 or more trimmed cards in holders for every bad auto or maybe a lot more.
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  #1013  
Old 03-28-2019, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
People won't touch SGC cards? Good to know. Though clearly I've been hallucinating looking at recent auctions.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1952_T...-LOT62449.aspx
Correct. You must be if you think one or two prices is reflective of a larger sentiment. When you try to sell a card and dealers tell you without looking at it or caring what card it is that they “do not buy sgc cards” thats a big deal.

You also cited a high grade blue chip card to make your singular point. Well played.
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  #1014  
Old 03-28-2019, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Dpeck100 View Post
SGC doesn't grade that many cards and they probably weren't grading very many auto's so it is an easy business decision to shut down a line of business that you play a very limited role in the market in and one that you might be taking significant financial risk by doing. It might not have been profitable for them anyways.

I have only dealt with SGC once and felt like the process was smooth and was really happy with how the cards looked in their holders. The problem is the collecting pool is getting smaller and smaller for their cards and there may certainly be segments where the collector base is very solid and perhaps like them more than other third party graders but the general trend is slipping.

It is my understanding at one point recently that they might grade 10,000 cards in a good month. This isn't a very large business and the revenue is probably less than 1.5 million if not lower. I think a lot of people forget how small the third party authentication business really is. PSA has a market share that amounts to total domination of a market and they really don't make that much money. Collectors Universe through June of 18 only made 6.2 million in profit for the fiscal year and around 35% of the company is represented by PSA so we are not talking huge numbers.

I think it is a very real possibility at some point SGC goes away. It might not and I think having choices is better for a market but it certainly isn't out of the realm of possibilities. What I think is more likely is they keep maintaining a very small amount of market share and someone out there is making 400k or so a year to operate it and is totally fine with it. It will certainly be interesting.

If they go out of business it is bad for the slabs in general but there are once again probably some areas where the collectors are totally comfortable with what they bought and it won't be an issue at all. I don't collect the older cards so I don't have a real opinion that counts but on newer cards it certainly wouldn't be good for them in most cases.
Their revenue has to be much higher. Their process is terribly in efficient evident by anyone who has attempted to mail them a submission or submit at a show. If they got rid of half the morons and upped their efficiency profits would go up.
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  #1015  
Old 03-28-2019, 08:45 PM
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The PSA division of Collectors Universe did $21,065,000 in revenue for 2018 and SGC is a fraction of their size. I think $1,500,000 might be generous and if not it isn't too far off.

Last edited by Dpeck100; 03-28-2019 at 09:03 PM. Reason: Added Collectors Universe to make clear PSA and PSA/DNA combined
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  #1016  
Old 03-28-2019, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Dpeck100 View Post
The PSA division did $21,065,000 in revenue for 2018 and SGC is a fraction of their size. I think $1,500,000 might be generous and if not it isn't too far off.
That number seems a lot more in line with what I would expect. 10 years max based on the 20 to 1 revenue. If PSA were smart they would buy them out and shut the brand down while they have opportunity.
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  #1017  
Old 03-28-2019, 09:59 PM
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Default Beginning of the end...

Hopefully the beginning of the end for this poorly run franchise.
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  #1018  
Old 03-28-2019, 10:37 PM
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If SGC shuts down/gets bought out, I would expect another entrant into the graded card market. It is ripe for a franchise that uses computer vision to grade cards, with more precise and repeatable results. I would not be surprised if that entrant was PWCC, with the way they have been expanding their presence and offerings.

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  #1019  
Old 03-29-2019, 04:51 AM
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PWCC's entire push is "eye appeal" value increases, why would they become a grading company themselves. They'd have to switch their mindset to technical grading parameters again.
And while a whole bunch of people theoretically want computer grading to be a thing and assume the market will react favorably to it, most submitters want 1) uniformity in their collection (PSA set registry, SGC gasket holders, BGS thick protective holders, whatever), 2) more money for their sales, and 3) better grades. Those three companies have amazing "first mover" advantages over any startup, because submitters trust all three of those companies with cards valued at a million dollars apiece. I guess that would be one reason PWCC would be a theoretical entrant: they already have the market's trust.

I've offered this before, but if the highest graded vintage card would only grade an 8.5 due to being compared to modern chrome production (card stock variances, slightly off registration, slight rough cuts, etc), why would anyone send their NM-MT or better cards to this new company doing computer grading? When 90% of your market already has a grader of choice and has sunk costs of all previous grading fees and time spent cultivating their registry, why would anyone send them 1975 commons to make a complete set? I don't see a computer grading company getting traction.
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  #1020  
Old 03-29-2019, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83 View Post
When you try to sell a card and dealers tell you without looking at it or caring what card it is that they “do not buy sgc cards”
Please raise your hand if you're a dealer who "does not buy SGC cards"
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  #1021  
Old 03-29-2019, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
PWCC's entire push is "eye appeal" value increases, why would they become a grading company themselves. They'd have to switch their mindset to technical grading parameters again.
And while a whole bunch of people theoretically want computer grading to be a thing and assume the market will react favorably to it, most submitters want 1) uniformity in their collection (PSA set registry, SGC gasket holders, BGS thick protective holders, whatever), 2) more money for their sales, and 3) better grades. Those three companies have amazing "first mover" advantages over any startup, because submitters trust all three of those companies with cards valued at a million dollars apiece. I guess that would be one reason PWCC would be a theoretical entrant: they already have the market's trust.

I've offered this before, but if the highest graded vintage card would only grade an 8.5 due to being compared to modern chrome production (card stock variances, slightly off registration, slight rough cuts, etc), why would anyone send their NM-MT or better cards to this new company doing computer grading? When 90% of your market already has a grader of choice and has sunk costs of all previous grading fees and time spent cultivating their registry, why would anyone send them 1975 commons to make a complete set? I don't see a computer grading company getting traction.
Because collectors are tired of the inaccurate grading, errors, fraud, shifting grading standards and the myriad of problems we talk about here on a daily basis... I would think a new company that would enter the business can create a holder(s) that the collecting community would be happy with.... As a way to gain traction in the industry it wouldn't be to difficult for a new entrant to offer crossover specials to gain customers and loyalty,,,
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  #1022  
Old 03-29-2019, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
PWCC's entire push is "eye appeal" value increases, why would they become a grading company themselves. They'd have to switch their mindset to technical grading parameters again.
And while a whole bunch of people theoretically want computer grading to be a thing and assume the market will react favorably to it, most submitters want 1) uniformity in their collection (PSA set registry, SGC gasket holders, BGS thick protective holders, whatever), 2) more money for their sales, and 3) better grades. Those three companies have amazing "first mover" advantages over any startup, because submitters trust all three of those companies with cards valued at a million dollars apiece. I guess that would be one reason PWCC would be a theoretical entrant: they already have the market's trust.

I've offered this before, but if the highest graded vintage card would only grade an 8.5 due to being compared to modern chrome production (card stock variances, slightly off registration, slight rough cuts, etc), why would anyone send their NM-MT or better cards to this new company doing computer grading? When 90% of your market already has a grader of choice and has sunk costs of all previous grading fees and time spent cultivating their registry, why would anyone send them 1975 commons to make a complete set? I don't see a computer grading company getting traction.
I agree that with so many millions of cards in so many people's collections, and the registries, and the many dealers profiting handsomely from their PSA affiliations, it would be hugely difficult to make a significant inroads into PSA's market dominance. This was GAI's failure despite the excellence of Mike Baker as a grader, there just wasn't incentive for dealers and collectors to switch, and PSA has had another 16 years to entrench itself and has done a brilliant job of it. And I sure don't see PWCC having any incentive to make waves.
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  #1023  
Old 03-29-2019, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by chalupacollects View Post
Because collectors are tired of the inaccurate grading, errors, fraud, shifting grading standards and the myriad of problems we talk about here on a daily basis... I would think a new company that would enter the business can create a holder(s) that the collecting community would be happy with.... As a way to gain traction in the industry it wouldn't be to difficult for a new entrant to offer crossover specials to gain customers and loyalty,,,
I would guess that most submissions are from dealers and collectors with at least one eye on value, not pure collectors who just want accurate grades.
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  #1024  
Old 03-29-2019, 10:27 AM
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Please raise your hand if you're a dealer who "does not buy SGC cards"
There are lots and even more collectors, which is partly lots of dealers will not. List two identical cards on Ebay at the same price and see which one garners interest and which gets none, meaning zero interest at all.

Just like there are dealers who wont touch grade A, OC, MK, half grades or cards with paper loss.

There is high price cobb for sale and it has been treated like the black plague for a year, dealers and collectors alike, but those I have talked to say 3 years.

As far as attempting to debunk my comments, I do encourage you at the next shows you go to observe what dealers only have PSA cards in their cases and ask them. That is where you will find the answer to your question.
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  #1025  
Old 03-29-2019, 11:10 AM
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Please raise your hand if you're a dealer who "does not buy SGC cards"
+1

I sell vintage cards in SGC and PSA holders at every Philly show and at each Chantilly show. I've never had a dealer say they don't buy SGC cards, not once. Buy the card, not the holder.

Last edited by OldOriole; 03-29-2019 at 11:11 AM.
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  #1026  
Old 03-29-2019, 11:13 AM
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Plus why would they refuse? They may try to pay less, but like I said above, take a look at the SGC and PSA 6 Matty portraits and the SGC and PSA 5 Johnson portraits in REA last weekend. SGC did better.

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  #1027  
Old 03-29-2019, 11:17 AM
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707 as best I know is virtually exclusively PSA. I think 4SC is similar.
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  #1028  
Old 03-29-2019, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83 View Post
That is where you will find the answer to your question.
I didn't pose a question. I've been setting up at shows, including the National for 25 years. I've never heard any dealer decline to purchase a card just because it's in an SGC holder. Undoubtedly many prefer PSA and may even sell only PSA cards, but no rational vendor would walk away from a purchase on which he could make a profit, regardless of the holder.
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  #1029  
Old 03-29-2019, 01:40 PM
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I would not be surprised if that entrant was PWCC, with the way they have been expanding their presence and offerings.

FWIW
That idea is certainly worthy of attention.
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  #1030  
Old 03-29-2019, 01:56 PM
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I didn't pose a question. I've been setting up at shows, including the National for 25 years. I've never heard any dealer decline to purchase a card just because it's in an SGC holder. Undoubtedly many prefer PSA and may even sell only PSA cards, but no rational vendor would walk away from a purchase on which he could make a profit, regardless of the holder.

In most cases it is fair to say their buy price certainly isn't equal.

The last SGC card I bought I paid $56 for and the same grade for the card in a PSA holder would sell for at least $350 or higher. The spread is extremely wide in many cases so coming up with a number that works would be very tough.

PSA is just drastically more popular for most cards.
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  #1031  
Old 03-29-2019, 02:05 PM
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Any move that allows them to focus on the authenticity and integrity of cards seems like a positive one at this point.
That's for sure [cough, sputter, stage whisper] DiMaggio card.
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  #1032  
Old 03-29-2019, 02:11 PM
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Still waiting for a one stop shop TPG/card doctor/AH.
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  #1033  
Old 03-29-2019, 02:12 PM
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707 as best I know is virtually exclusively PSA. I think 4SC is similar.
4SC is not. I've purchased SGC cards from them.
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  #1034  
Old 03-29-2019, 03:08 PM
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Gone... until registration is verified. Generic voice mail not left and PM sent with no response.
Two in one thread, it might be a record. We will see. I hope I come back and say this person verified registration. I am not going to hold my breath though.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83 View Post
There are lots and even more collectors, which is partly lots of dealers will not. List two identical cards on Ebay at the same price and see which one garners interest and which gets none, meaning zero interest at all.

Just like there are dealers who wont touch grade A, OC, MK, half grades or cards with paper loss.

There is high price cobb for sale and it has been treated like the black plague for a year, dealers and collectors alike, but those I have talked to say 3 years.

As far as attempting to debunk my comments, I do encourage you at the next shows you go to observe what dealers only have PSA cards in their cases and ask them. That is where you will find the answer to your question.
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Last edited by Leon; 03-29-2019 at 03:09 PM.
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  #1035  
Old 03-29-2019, 07:49 PM
Rare Stuff Rare Stuff is offline
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Any news on the forger? Peter Nash? Manny? Have any more forgeries been found? Can’t let this guy get away with it.
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  #1036  
Old 03-29-2019, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rare Stuff View Post
Any news on the forger? Peter Nash? Manny? Have any more forgeries been found? Can’t let this guy get away with it.
Thanks for the quick chat on the phone. Sounds like you have been around a good while.
The updates are . I think the investigation is still ongoing, from a reliable source in the last few days......No idea on Peter Nash but one can only hope he changes his ways. Manny, the OP, has never wanted to verify who he is so he is still gone.
And another member also bit the dust due to registration issues, MichelaTorres83
Yes, I think we all hope the forger is caught.

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Old 03-30-2019, 07:28 AM
iowadoc77 iowadoc77 is offline
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Cue the background Queen music
And another one gone another one gone another one bites the dust...
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  #1038  
Old 05-02-2019, 09:47 PM
Promethius88 Promethius88 is offline
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Any updates? Seems like the Muller probe didn't take this long!
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  #1039  
Old 05-05-2019, 08:33 AM
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Any updates? Seems like the Muller probe didn't take this long!
Not to get political but it seems both the Mueller probe and this T206 autograph probe still have legs. I have no new news. I wish the fraudsters in our hobby the worst of luck. I hope they all get what they have coming to them, one way or the other. Karma...

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Old 05-05-2019, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
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Gone... until registration is verified. Generic voice mail not left and PM sent with no response.
Two in one thread, it might be a record.
I haven’t heard any news either (other than the forger doesn’t seem to have moved to postwar, at least not yet) but I’m not sure two banishments in one thread is a record; I remember a few of Joey Farino’s threads ending with multiple bans, and he was usually one of them.
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  #1041  
Old 05-05-2019, 05:52 PM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
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What is the current state of the market for signed T206? Are collectors avoiding them, or are they taking the ostrich with his head in the sand approach and pretending that they are all good because they are slabbed? I don't follow these at all, so I have no idea what's doing.
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Old 05-05-2019, 07:03 PM
felada felada is offline
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Seems as though that signed pre war hasn’t been as plentiful as it was a year or so ago where it seemed every auction had a lot of signed cards. People are probably just lying low until it blows over and then the cycle will start over again.
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  #1043  
Old 05-05-2019, 07:49 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iowadoc77 View Post
Cue the background Queen music
And another one gone another one gone another one bites the dust...
As I got to your post in this thread that song started on my stereo.

Seriously.
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  #1044  
Old 05-08-2019, 08:53 AM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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Are these fake signed cards considered Altered or refurbished
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  #1045  
Old 05-08-2019, 08:55 AM
tschock tschock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector View Post
Are these fake signed cards considered Altered or refurbished
They are considered "preserved", as it is 'preserving' the area under the fake signature.
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  #1046  
Old 05-08-2019, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
What is the current state of the market for signed T206? Are collectors avoiding them, or are they taking the ostrich with his head in the sand approach and pretending that they are all good because they are slabbed? I don't follow these at all, so I have no idea what's doing.
I'm still buying, but very few people seem to be selling. In particular, I am looking for any signed pre-war cards that were certified by SGC, JSA, PSA or Beckett prior to 2015. Over on the B/S/T, I have offered to "reimburse" collectors for the price they paid to buy a signed T206 card, if they bought it at auction prior to 2015. I've gotten just one seller to bite.

I think it's fair to say that people are just holding tight for now, but also remember that nearly all of the signed T206 cards to hit REA, Hunt and Clean Sweep between 2015 and 2018 have been found to be forgeries. That's a huge portion of the overall population, so there is obviously a lot less supply to contend with, even if you accept that demand has gone down as a result of this scandal.
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Old 06-03-2019, 02:59 PM
ejharrington ejharrington is offline
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With the current scandal that has been uncovered regarding PSA, was there ever any resolution with regards to this situation? It seems to have faded away.
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Old 06-03-2019, 04:34 PM
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Yep, who actually wrote the checks? PSA's grade guarantee does not cover autograph authentication misses. So if they wrote the check for the one they certified, that is an interesting precedent.
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  #1049  
Old 06-03-2019, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ejharrington View Post
With the current scandal that has been uncovered regarding PSA, was there ever any resolution with regards to this situation? It seems to have faded away.
It's true that there isn't much current discussion on the board about this scandal, but my understanding is that you can credit a forgery ring in Girard, OH (it's not just one person, but many involved), the FBI is involved, the AH's that have lost money are pursuing restitution in various ways, and that most of this process is likely to remain behind the scenes and take awhile. There's just not very many involved with any incentive to share it on a public forum.

If you remove the signed T206 cards that made their way to REA, Hunt and Clean Sweep from 2015 through 2018, most of which were forgeries, there really haven't been very many signed T206 cards on the market in the past 10 years. I would guess you will see very few new ones popping up going forward, which would also keep the public dialogue to a minimum.

Having said that, if you combine this scandal with the PSA/PWCC scandal it's obvious that the issue of baseball card fraud, signed or otherwise, being "condoned" by third-party authenticators, is doing anything but "fading away." Maybe it's because so much of my collection is based on signed pre-1916 cards, but every PSA/PWCC post rings so true to me, and I am holding out hope that, as a result of all of this mess, TPGs will make significant improvements with how they do business in our hobby, signed and unsigned cards alike.
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