Kevin Saucier - Adding Value

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Posted By: Steve

Its like a soap opera over there


Jim that is not true and you know it.


Steve

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Posted By: MW

A third party authentication service to "validate" already graded cards requires more than a team of the hobby's top graders. It necessitates a financial guarantee to back its opinions. Just like in the coin business, an opinion, however well qualified, means very little to the majority of collectors, if it is not backed by solid cash offers. It has been estimated that such a guarantee would require an outlay of perhaps $5 million.

Anyone can put a sticker on a graded card. Few can provide the expertise and then confidently back it with a financial guarantee.

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Posted By: Larry

<look at all Kevin has done to advance the knowledge on <card alterations

yeah right.....lol....are any of his books on Amazon? How many books has he written and had published on the subject?

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

MW makes a good point. A fourth party grader would require significant financial backing in view of liability exposure.

Frank

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Posted By: pas

Further to Michael's point, I am not sure I understand what Kevin's authentication means. Is it an affirmative statement of authenticity or merely a negative one that he can't, in the slab, detect any alteration?

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Posted By: pas

I continue to be skeptical, however expert Kevin is, of the value of a review of a card inside a slab. This may well detect some things that slipped through but not, in my perhaps non-expert view, many alterations that can only be detected by handling a card and having a clear view of the edges.

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Posted By: JimB

Crandall said,
"Well anytime Jim that I don't like one of your questions I know how to silence you-"

I'm sorry if I have not been living by my computer all day. I went out to a fundraising event this evening. Being away from my computer will definately silence me in an online discussion board.

But Jim, you have not said anything worthy of a response. I see no point to discussing this with you any further. It is clear to me that when you get directly confronted with your hypocrisy, you just avoid the penetrating questions by attempting to divert attention. You make public, information you believe to be secret, soas to try to ruffle feathers. This is not the first time you have attempted to anger people by mentioning LTS. The big joke is on you because nobody cares. I am not interested in playing this type of game. It accomplishes nothing.
JimB

P.S. I will be away from my computer watching a movie for a few hours. I may not even check again until tomorrow.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Peter,

I posted the following on the prior thread that Leon locked. Like you I would like to hear Kevin's comments.

Some random and unorganized thoughts...

I'm not sure one can unequivocally rule out alterations, or the lack there of, with a card in a sealed plastic holder. Cards are examined by graders, either thoroughly or not, outside of protectos and certainly not in sealed holders which limit visibility at the very least. Kevin seems very knowledgeable on the subject of card alterations so he may very well be able to do a better job than the grading services are doing. As a side note, what motivates one to dabble in learning about altering cards as opposed to taking up tennis or Kung Fu?

And to reply to Dan's post about showing cards valued at 5K or more that are altered...Cards are not considered altered by majority of the collectors or dealers once graded and sealed. But it is very common for dealers to break out cards to resubmit hoping for a bump in grade and in an instant, after relying on the flip at the top of the holder which assigns a grade, they end up with a card that will never grade again. This phenomena is very common.

Greg

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Steve,

Obviously--I'm kidding--there are a couple of real sensitive people there--oh well, a few people thought it was funny including some of your LTSers. Even Tom had to chuckle about "The Fight Club"

Jim,

The last thing I am trying to do is anger people--I think its pretty funny.

Nobody cares? Funny reactions for noone caring.

My hypocrisy? About what.

Other than saying for the fifteenth millionth time I am not resubmitting my cards to SGC or to Kevin, what would you like to ask me that is on your mind.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Whoops Jim--I found your "penetrating" corrections--wow--no wpnder I avoided them.

1)I don't think everydody elses cards are altered

2)I want to have another check on expensive cards I buy because I believe some cards have slipped through.

3)Just because to my knowledge I don't have any altered cards does not mean I don't--I just don't know which of the 28,000 graded they may be?

Those were penetrating Jim--any other penetrating ones?

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Posted By: Sean C

I'd be just as concerned about the altered cards I currently had in my collection as the ones I'm potentially buying, especially since I'd be paying extra insurance premiums on potentially worthless (or less valuable) cards. I guess Jim doesn't want to know how badly he may have been taken advantage of in the past, and how much "dead wood" he may have in his card vault. As the old saying goes, ignorance is bliss.


JimCrandell
(Login Davalillo) Re: Kevin Saucier - Adding Value November 19 2007, 6:29 AM


Whoops Jim--I found your "penetrating" corrections--wow--no wpnder I avoided them.

1)I don't think everydody elses cards are altered

2)I want to have another check on expensive cards I buy because I believe some cards have slipped through.

3)Just because to my knowledge I don't have any altered cards does not mean I don't--I just don't know which of the 28,000 graded they may be?

Those were penetrating Jim--any other penetrating ones?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Sean,

You are a fool--but as they say and its certainly true with you ignorance is bliss.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Jim,

You're the best!

Love,

-Ryan

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Posted By: pas

Folks seem more interested in bashing Jim than discussing the merits of how much value Kevin (or anyone else) can add by reviewing a card already in a slab.

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Posted By: Dave F

While I agree this shouldn't turn into another bashing Jim thread, he isn't helping himself by throwing fuel on the fire with the 5 or 6 that are wanting exactly that. Why not just let sleeping dogs lie Jim?

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

I have to agree with Dave on that Peter. I'm only here for one reason. It isn't because I wanted to chime in on the merits of Kevin's service. It wasn't to bash Kevin either as I like the guy. It's because Jim continues to take any opportunity he can to twist the truth about LTS. Jim needs to get back on topic and lay off us, or we will certainly debate him on his allegations/poor jokes/rumors/whatever.

As always, if he leaves it alone, the only place I can be found on N54 is on the Buy/Sell/Trade forum.

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Posted By: pas

Hey Tom was not counting you among the Jim bashers, Jim brought up LTS so it was fair game. I just wish there could be less discussion of Jim's personal collection (we GET the charge of hypocrisy, let's move on) and more about the concept of reviewing cards inside a slab which to me is the crux of the discussion about whether Kevin adds value.

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Posted By: Mark H.

Kevin, pass me some of that popcorn.

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Posted By: martindl

Peter, you said "Folks seem more interested in bashing Jim than discussing the merits of how much value Kevin (or anyone else) can add by reviewing a card already in a slab."

Plenty of people have discussed the merits and the concerns regarding Kevin or anyone else reviewing a card already in a slab. There is really nothing else to be said, other than already repeating a point already made.
I see no problem with anyone availing themselves of someone else's expertise if they want that assurance for themselves. It would be a personal service akin to many other kinds of appraisers e.g. real estate, antiques, cars, etc. The main difference that I can see is that unlike other appraisers, this one would be unlicensed and thus their opinion would carry no real weight.

Re. bashing Jim, after reading his repeated putdowns of others it does become quite tempting to want to bring him down to the level of the rest of us. Jim C. is a gadfly and seemingly quite happy to be so.

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Posted By: pas

Martin there are some regulars whose expertise I highly respect who have not commented on the utility of such a service, but in any event your point is well taken that this thread is certainly not the first discussion of Kevin and many have already weighed in. Then again, if redundancy were the standard we might have a lotless to talk about.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

How much added value would a thumbs up from Kevin add to a card I am considering purchasing? Until I can get some sense of how effective such an examination would be with the card still in the slab, I don't think I can answer that. There are different kinds of alterations (trimming, rebuilding corners, adding color, etc.) and I suppose some are more easily detectable with the card in the slab than others. To me the effectiveness of Kevin's examination would be more to prove the negative than the positive -- if he gives it a thumbs down, then assuming I have confidence in his expertise (and I don't know Kevin but from what I read he seems a pretty knowledgable person), I would regard (much of) the value taken away from the card.

Also, separate from what Kevin can and cannot do with the card still in the slab, I would also want to know when the card was graded and its provenance. If, for example, it had been recently done by SGC, then inasmuch as I am comfortable with their expertise, to me there is not much potential additional value out there that Kevin could add even under the best of circumstances (i.e., examining the card outside the slab). Same too goes with provenance. If the card went straight from an old time collector straight into a slab (e.g., Lionel Carter's cards), then the only issue to me is the grade, not the whether the card has been altered.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Corey, I have seen some T206's from Lionel Carter's collection that were trimmed and graded "A" by SGC. Trimming has been going on for a looooooonnnnnggg time.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Fair point. I think I need to be more specific in what I said. The types of cards from Carter's collection that I have no worries are altered are those he personally pulled from the packs, not ones he acquired from others. So yes, the T206s would not fall in this category and I too had heard some had been altered. But, say, his Topps and Bowmans that SGC slabbed, those I'm not worried about.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Martin,

Name one instance where I have initiated something putting down others. I respond to others who attack me but why would I ever say anything to Sean if he didn't attack me first.

Tom,

How am I twisting the truth? Yes you don't have to graduate from Harvard or Yale to get into LTS--I admit it --I twisted it. Is LTS such an organization that you can't poke fun at it in jest? I think its funny Kevin cannot get back in--you don't-- fine. I think he thinks its funny too.

You can rip me again if you want to Tom but just trying to create some fun.

Speedy recovery.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

John,

Here are your answers:

1)Has Kevin looked at my cards--no. Will he--no. Thus rest of questions irrelevent
2)I never said I was going to cross my 25,000 PSA cards(not 50,000). I indicated I would seriously consider it if PSA went to half grades which they considered but never did.
3)This turned out to be a good decision--GAI cards are worth a lot less that PSA in the same grade. I have no reason today to consider switching--I like my PSA cards.
4)Why should I? There are hundreds of major collectors out there--I know of one that has had his cards checked. I am happy--all look great although there are probably some that are not.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- what was the verdict regarding your friend who had his cards checked? Were many problems found?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

He posts here from time to time and I do not feel comfortable disclosing what Kevin found. I will have to pass on that and let Kevin or him disclose that if they wish to.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Well if we don't know who it is, what difference would it make if you just gave us a brief synopsis? I don't need names.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I would be breaching a confidence and I really don't know all the facts--Kevin can comment if he thinks its appropriate.

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

Jim,

I have no issues with the little jokes like Harvard or the networth thing.

I have a problem with your comments saying we are secret society/elitist. LTS is no secret. And if we are elitist we have low standards (starting with myself). I have seen comments like this a few times on N54 from you. It's just not true. We let a lot of people on as long as they are relatively polite to others, and somebody can vouch for them as “a stand-up person” in the hobby). It’s not much different from an auction house asking for references before they let you bid.

I have a problem with you saying we had a vote on Kevin, and the fact you would question JimB to that effect in public. Your accusation is false once again. No vote was taken. And if it were JimB isn't the guy to go after about that is he?

The fact of the matter is you want to put a negative spin on LTS in public. People here don’t know us and they might actually believe your dribble. So, frankly, I just want to make sure people know the truth, and not just the world according to Jim. That’s all.

If you insist on making jokes at our expense you can be sure we won’t have any issues making jokes at your expense. All in good fun, of course. After all, there’s nothing wrong with a few jokes is there?

Be well my friend.

Tom

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Posted By: peter chao

Tom,

Would you have any problems with me saying that Net54 is going in the direction of an elitist/secret society?

I get along fine with most people on this Board, but there are many pre-war collectors that are afraid to post on this Board because they realize some Board Members aren't that nice.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Dave F

Peter...
I'd have a problem with you saying this board is turning into an elitist/secret society...what are you basing that on??

And if there are people on this board that are "not verY nice"...by all means point them out to avoid more secrets!

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

Not at all Peter.

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Posted By: Rob

In reference to the Lionel Carter slabs, isn't it also possible that the slabs could've been tampered with? If so, the card inside could be different than what the slab says is. Two scenarios I could see is

1) Taking out the original card and putting in a different one, whether its a fake or just lower grade
2) Tampering with the slip in the slab to make it read as a higher grade and/or changing the serial number, etc

Just food for though i guess
Rob

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Posted By: peter chao

Dave F.,

You are one of the nice guys, so I wasn't referring to you. It just seems like some pre-war collectors I have spoken with and had e-mail contact with feel the same way I do.

Some of the Board Members think of themselves as being on the cutting edge of the hobby and if your post isn't on the cutting edge it will be ignored or ridiculed. Tom seems to agree with me to some degree.

Peter C.

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

I do agree Peter that a fair amount of the poster here can make others feel that way. But I certainly wouldn't put a huge number of the posters in that category.

I think every forum has that issue to some degree. Hard to overcome that since all collectors are in a different place as to what and who they know in this hobby.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Rob, my guess is that some oldtime collector knowing Carter's penchant for minty cards trimmed up some of his T206 cards in order to pass them by Lionel and make a sale or a trade. This probably happened in the 1950s or 60s when Lionel was putting his T206 set together.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Tom,

Only going by what Kevin told me--assumed he would know.

I think secret society is funny--if I said elitist I am sure I meant it in jest--probably in regard to not letting Kevin back in.

Actually reread everything I said--all was meant to be funny--still think you take it all too seriously and as you know I have quite a few buddies in LTS of which hope to again count you as one someday.

Ready--smile Tom Never used to be high tech enough to do that.

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Posted By: Marty

I read about half of this thread so far. I have a couple of thoughts about posting certs of cards that may be bad. Should they post the cert #s that are good? This information is for the person who paid for it. Why should others benefit? I could see another level of "Club Members" that are charged a membership fee and they could be made aware of this information.

On PSA's web site, you can look through cert #s around the one in question to see of there may have been others on the same invoice that were rejected. Is this good or bad? I do not believe that SGC offers this service, is this good or bad? You can not see who sent the cards in.

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

I am happy Jim. Those that know me in this hobby know that.

I think your just upset that MW is spot on. SPOT ON.

This venture you think is so great is a waste of time. It's a waste to even talk about. I actually thought you were smarter than to back something like this? But than again aren't you the genius that almost crossed 20,000 slabs from PSA to GAI?

Genius!!! We should all follow you!!!

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Tom,

Why is MW spot on-???-noone is asking for a financial guarantee. I just want Kevin's opinion and I will be glad to sign a waiver or whatever is rtequired. Come on Tom--you are smarter than that.

I think it was actually pretty smart not to use GAI--if thats what you mean--many thanks.

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Posted By: Marc S.

Do you consider this thread a trainwreck?

What percentage of threads that you start do you feel end up as trainwrecks?

Anyway -- I hope that I never get pegged as one of those B-school elitists. The fact of the matter is that I applied to a whole bunch of business schools, and only a single one accepted me. I happily went, but I just reckon I'm a lucky guy, nothing more.

And I never associate my collection, my friends, or my associations with having anything to do with net worth. If I ever become one of those guys, I do hope one of my true friends will shoot me.

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

Once again you read everything the way you want. You're a mess old man. I guess you are that stupid.

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

Marc,

I miss you man. Shoot me a line. Let's catch-up.

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Posted By: Jimcrandell

Inability to comprehend a basic concept Tom? Read the words carefully three times out loud and you just might get it.

Marc--do not know what you are getting at.

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

Bank roll him Jim if it's such a great idea. I get the concept. I'm just saying it's a dumb idea. I'm sure all of the "smart" collectors will be standing in line for a worthless fourth party opinion.

Call me all of the names you want Jim. I love it.

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Posted By: Jimcrandell

Tom Papa--"You're a mess old man. I guess you are that stupid.'

Dav--"Inability to comprehends a basic concept Tom? Read the words three times out loud and you just might get it"

TomPapa--"Call me all the names you want Jim. I love it.

I think Tom must be reading his prior messages to me and thinking I sent them. This is hysterical.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

There's nothing wrong with asking for an educated second opinion on a graded card, but, as long as the card is held within the holder, there's a limit to what someone, anyone, can detect. It may be that some kinds of problems will be able to be identified while the card is in the holder, which is why it's fine to ask someone to look over your newly purchased graded cards. However, the idea that all graded cards are beholden to an examination where the cards never leave the holder is silly. The graders at SGC examine all the cards raw, which means they have a superior view of all of the cards.

Again I'm sure problems can be identified while the card is in the holder, but it's not legitimately possible to say a card isn't altered that hasn't been examined raw. One of the basic rules of examining paintings or prints or photos or such is that you have to remove the object from any holder, because the holder obstructs view.

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

Selectively cutting and pasting certain lines that don't tell the entire story on name calling won't mak your great venture any more lucrative. You can't side step the fact the idea is a horrible value to the people you expect to pay for that service.

I can't wait to see how much you pay Kevin yourself for this highly valued service. You used to say the same thing about how great GAI and your pals over there are. At the same time you said Orlando is an ass and PSA sucks.

You never put your money where your mouth was than because you knew it was a bad business move. My prediction is that you won't put your money where your mouth is on this one either. The fact of the matter is you chat up the services your friends provide, but put your money where it adds the best value to your collection.

LTS was great according to you until the day we dropped you. Than we became evil. Grow-up Jim.

I have e-mails and posts for parts of 4 years from you trashing people and companies. Than you stroke them in public and kiss their ass when it benefits you. I have dozens of items like this Jim from you trying to manipulate me for outcomes you have wanted on LTS or even back on the CU Forums during the Orlando fights. I know you're manipulative. I don't care what you say here because I have lived Jim Crandall first hand and have lots of proof to that effect.

You're self serving to say the least. People that don't know that haven't been in some of the inner circles to know how low you stoop to get things your way.

You're one of the top 5 two faced people I have met in this hobby. The fact that we don't like each other is the only reason you take shots at LTS over here. That's cool. I have time to kill.

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

I agree David. Nothing wrong with it, but why would somebody pay for that? Why go to a grading company in the first place if you have no trust for the service? And if Kevin is "the trusted source in the hobby" (which he is not) why not have him start a grading company and just go straight to him?

It's just common sense really. I wouldn't invest $10 in this idea. But that's me. I understand that others here may want something like this. I'm just waiting to hear who and how many cards they are sending in?